Too much powder? Case pictures

[wasilvers]

When I look at my fired cases, it almost looks like the primer was flattened and the firing pin area was 'cratered' - based on what I read on the world wide web, these are signs of a load that is too hot. Can you experts look at these pictures and tell me if I should lower my powder charge?

Background : I started reloading 9mm the other day just because I wanted to. This is my first pistol loading. I asked a longtime reloader and he recommended TiteGroup powder for 9mm. I looked up HODGDON's load data, went one grain over the starting load for my bullet weight and loaded 14 of them. I fired 7 and they seemed to hit well, recoil was normal, etc.

I am shooting HORANDY 115gr XTP (appears to be a FMJ hollowpoint) - loading 4.6gr of Titegroup - shooting in a Ruger LC9. Every powder charge is individually measured and then weighed to insure consistency. The range for this powder is 4.5gr to 4.8gr from the manufacturer website.

One of these pictures is the fired brass, the other is of two unfired rounds. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!

 

[jwrowland77]

Looks like you just have extra room around your firing pin hole to me.

I'm running 115gr XTP, using Hornady data, I'm running 4.0 of TG in my Walther PPS.

 

[Blue68f100]

Your getting a little primer flow but that could be related to FP clearance in the hole. I see no indication of a flattened primer.

 

[jwrowland77]

Me neither Blue. Primer looks fine. Almost like a new primer except for the little bit around FP mark.

 

[cosh]

Most 9mm fired cases at the range have some ring around the firing pin mark. I go with ejector marks and loose primer pockets to check for too-hot loads.

Also note that Rem 1 1/2 are soft for high pressure 9mm loads.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Welcome to the forum...

I agree, I see no signs of a flattened primer. Which primers are you using?
I wouldn't worry about that load...

Just a note, you said you increased the starting charge by "one grain" but you really increased the charge by one-tenth of a grain. One grail over the starting charge would have been 5.5gr. Be careful when posting those things because it could cause problems.

 

[Tony k]

My understanding is that "reading primers" really only applies to rifles. Further, most of my manuals caution against putting too much stock in primer flattening. Cratering and gas blow by are a different story. If you have any signs of high pressure with a 9mm primer, you are in the serous danger zone.

I would have started with the 4.5 grain starting load, working up to 4.8 at .1 grain increments. I usually do one magazine full at each increment, but that's mainly for convenience.

I've never used Titegroup, but 4.5-4.8 doesn't leave much room for error.

 

[wasilvers]

Welcome to the forum...

I agree, I see no signs of a flattened primer. Which primers are you using?
I wouldn't worry about that load...

Just a note, you said you increased the starting charge by "one grain" but you really increased the charge by one-tenth of a grain. One grail over the starting charge would have been 5.5gr. Be careful when posting those things because it could cause problems.

Ah, yes. I increased by ONE TENTH! Sorry for the slipup.

 

[jwrowland77]

That load sounds really hot. I looked up the load on Hodgdon for the weight and powder. Noticed it was using a Speer gold.

I'll look up my data in my Hornady manual when I get home for the XTP 115gr. I want to say it 4.0-4.4gr.

And welcome to THR! It's an addiction.

 

[wasilvers]

THANKS GUYS - I get parnoid sometimes. I have to keep the fingers and eyes to do my day job.

 

[Rule3]

Can not tell you much by one picture of a primer. It alone looks fine.

As to Titegroup for 9mm, it would not be what I would recommend to use, especially to a new reloader. It's too fast and a little bit of an over charge in a high pressure load like 9mm can make a big problem. (yes, I know all you guys that love it)

Do you have other powders??

 

[oldpapps]

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=205543&stc=1&d=1417706696

When I think of 'TOO MUCH powder', the attached is what I think of.
I did not load or shoot either of the above. The one on the left is or was a 40 S&W. On the right is a 9MM. The 9MM case is split from the web to case mouth. It was fired in a glock, see the square firing pin hole? The 40 case was a major over load, I think both were fired from the same weapon but as I only picked up the brass after the fact, can't do more than guess.

I think what scares me the most is that someone actually loaded and shot those rounds.... I don't like glocks but this one stood up to more than expected.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

THANKS GUYS - I get parnoid sometimes. I have to keep the fingers and eyes to do my day job.

Don't we all need eyes and fingers??? LOL

I suggest you buy a Chronograph. While we as reloaders don't have a way of testing pressure we can tell is something is wrong with a load by velocity. If the load manual tells us we should be getting 900 fps from this load and when you shoot it you get 1,250 fps you know for sure something is very wrong. (especially since the velocity numbers in the load manuals are inflated) A chrono these days costs little more than $100 and Christmas is coming. lol

 

[wasilvers]

I actually have a chrono (bowhunting and custom pellet gun testing), but have never set one up at a range before. And I don't have a range at my house in town.

I bit the bullet and subscribed to loaddata.com to see what the manuals all say. Of course they are all over the place with titegroup and xtp bullets. One lists from 4.0 - 5.0gr. But most seem to stop at 4.5gr with xtp bullets. Maybe I will setup the chrono and a good backstop and see just how fast these are moving.

 

[wasilvers]

I do not have other powders- they seem hard to find here in Milwaukee. I do measure each load very carefully by hand. It isn't very fast, especially for 9mm, but I'm not shooting it very much either. Over time, I will have a quantity of rounds made just 20-30 at a time.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I like W231/HP-38 for 9mm practice/range ammo, Zip will also work well. For more serious work i like HS-6 or Longshot in the 9mm, AA#5 will also work well.

 

[Toprudder]

Don't we all need eyes and fingers??? LOL

I suggest you buy a Chronograph. While we as reloaders don't have a way of testing pressure we can tell is something is wrong with a load by velocity. If the load manual tells us we should be getting 900 fps from this load and when you shoot it you get 1,250 fps you know for sure something is very wrong. (especially since the velocity numbers in the load manuals are inflated) A chrono these days costs little more than $100 and Christmas is coming. lol

I started reloading without a chrono, but once I got one I wondered why I didn't start with one!

The thing you have to be careful about when looking at published velocities is the barrel length. Most powder manufacturers will list what barrel length was used for the load data and velocities. Don't expect the same velocities from a shorter barrel! Most 45acp data I find was collected using a 5" barrel (standard length for 1911). My 45 barrel is 4.5", and I expect about 50 to 70fps less, as that is what I have seen when comparing loads in a friends 1911.

Having said that, a chrono is a must if you are intending to work up close to a max load. If you are interested in reduced recoil loads for plinking, then a chrono is still giving you good information, but is not absolutely needed, IMHO. Just start low, and find a load that seems to be consistent and cycles the gun reliably.

Another good indicator is how far the spent casings are ejected. A low charge will eject right at your feet, a high charge will go farther. Compare to factory loads if possible. If I were reloading for my SKS, I would have to invest in radar equipment, because it launches spent casings into low earth orbit.

 

[wasilvers]

I started reloading without a chrono, but once I got one I wondered why I didn't start with one!

The thing you have to be careful about when looking at published velocities is the barrel length. Most powder manufacturers will list what barrel length was used for the load data and velocities. Don't expect the same velocities from a shorter barrel! Most 45acp data I find was collected using a 5" barrel (standard length for 1911). My 45 barrel is 4.5", and I expect about 50 to 70fps less, as that is what I have seen when comparing loads in a friends 1911.

Having said that, a chrono is a must if you are intending to work up close to a max load. If you are interested in reduced recoil loads for plinking, then a chrono is still giving you good information, but is not absolutely needed, IMHO. Just start low, and find a load that seems to be consistent and cycles the gun reliably.

Another good indicator is how far the spent casings are ejected. A low charge will eject right at your feet, a high charge will go farther. Compare to factory loads if possible. If I were reloading for my SKS, I would have to invest in radar equipment, because it launches spent casings into low earth orbit.

This gun consistently throws them WAY far back there. Some landed on the roof of the cabin when I was steps away and practicing at the hunting camp. LOL

 

[Jesse Heywood]

Post your results, please. My range isn't set up to accommodate chrono use.

My best results with the 115 XTP in a Kahr CW9 with Titegroup were:
4.4 gr., mild recoil, very good accuracy
4.6 gr., moderate recoil, excellent accuracy
4.8 gr., mod.-heavy recoil, very good accuracy

So I loaded the 4.6 gr. load.

I am not a big fan of titegroup, it has been a love-hate relationship. But in today's lack of powder market one has to make do. When my health allows me to return to the range, I will do some serious testing with the jug of 7625, which has looked pretty good in a P38.

 

[Toprudder]

Post your results, please. My range isn't set up to accommodate chrono use.

While Titegroup may not be my favorite powder in 9mm, it has worked very well for me, and I would not hesitate using it in the future. My favorite powder thus far is Power Pistol, but BE-86 may take its place.

My Titegroup loads so far, shot from 4.5" barrel:
Xtreme, 115, 3.7gn, WSP, 989.2fps, 16.9sd, 50 spread
Xtreme, 115, 3.9gn, WSP, 1033.4fps, 12.3 sd, 40 spread
Xtreme, 115, 4.1gn, WSP, 1059.4fps, 13.6sd, 37 spread

Xtreme, 115, 4.1gn, CCI 500, 1056.6fps, 12.6sd, 34 spread
Xtreme, 115, 4.3gn, CCI 500, 1102.4fps, 7.6sd, 18 spread
Xtreme, 115, 4.5gn, CCI 500, 1122.0fps, 11.3sd, 28 spread

Bayou, 124, 3.5gn, CCI 500, 971.6fps, 12.4sd, 33 spread
Bayou, 124, 3.7gn, CCI 500, 1032.8fps, 11.3sd, 27 spread - 2" 5 shot group @ 25 yards
Bayou, 124, 3.9gn, CCI 500, 1070.4fps, 7.8sd, 19 spread
Bayou, 124, 4.1gn, CCI 500, 1102.8fps, 8.6sd, 21 spread

 

[CZ9shooter]

Aside for some super low charge plinking loads I have experimented with, most of my 9mm cases look just like that. I picked up a few pieces (not mine) at the range one time that had seriously flattened primers. The flat spot was even pushed all the way out the the chamfered edge of the primer pocket. THAT is a flat primer.

 

[Potatohead]

THANKS GUYS - I get parnoid sometimes. I have to keep the fingers and eyes to do my day job.

Paranoid isnt always bad ya know...

I'm glad everyone else said they look fine, because IMO opinion they look A-ok.

Though Ive loaded a good many now, I'm still very inexperienced with these type issues also (primer flow, flattened primers, out of spec brass, etc) and I purposely didnt look at anyone else's post before formulating my opinion to test myself...and hey, I passed! I'm starting to gain (a little) knowledge hopefully..

Seriously though, it's not always easy to know exactly what you're looking for when you hadn't been at this long.


Welcome to THR btw, we're glad to have ya'!

 

[gamestalker]

Nothing looks particularly high pressure, but the problem with trying to read primers of ammunition fired from AL's, is that they don't flow reliably or like with a revolver chambered round. Often times an AL load will go red line long before the primer will flow enough to alert you.

The best way IMO to avoid problems is to see how far the brass flies compared to a good factory self defense round, and also running them across a chrony, if you have a reliable base velocity to compare with. Outside of that, always work up from the published start charge, and run your oal at, or longer than the published tested length. The shorter the oal, the higher the pressures will run.

If what you want is a good realistic 9mm velocity, and don't want to work with short charge tables, try powders like Longshot and HS6.

GS