The Plain Dealer in Cleveland is owned by Advance, these guys.... well someone within this huge organization isn't fond of firearms.
http://www.cjr.org/tools/owners/advance.asp
http://www.cjr.org/tools/owners/advance.asp
Newspaper makes good on threat to publish CCW holder's names (merged)
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Justin
Moderator Emeritus
I'll skip right past the obviously self-evident fact that publishing such a list is both an invasion of privacy and borders on harrassment, and jump right to my own personal experience.
Several years ago, a newspaper in northern Indiana got a bug up it's rear and decided to publish an online, searchable database of every CC permit holder in the state. The database included name and town of residence, among other information.
They decided to do this while I was on a 3-month internship in Newark NJ.
Now tell me, just how do you think I felt knowing that any ne'er-do-well willing to crack open a phone book could go find an empty apartment full of free guns?
Carlos
Member
Because it is malicious, pure and simple. You don't like my ability to carry a weapon, so you set me up for trouble.
I like the idea of CCW holders responding in kind and releasing "public" information about the morons who think it's necessary to potentially victimize law abiding citizens.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
It is a direct (IMO) erosion of individual's rights to carry. An attempt to ''get back'' at a law they hate seeing enacted.
If they took one step back and actually saw that CCW saves lives and keeps crime figures DOWN - not up - then maybe they'd consider respecting privacy (it matters little here whether legal or not) ..... but posting all this data is at best ..... insolent and back-stabbing.
At worst it invites backlash potential, against those upright folks who have (at last) been able to excercize what should always have been their right anyways. It is obscene and anti social. They make me want to ----
If they took one step back and actually saw that CCW saves lives and keeps crime figures DOWN - not up - then maybe they'd consider respecting privacy (it matters little here whether legal or not) ..... but posting all this data is at best ..... insolent and back-stabbing.
At worst it invites backlash potential, against those upright folks who have (at last) been able to excercize what should always have been their right anyways. It is obscene and anti social. They make me want to ----
dukeofurl
Member
If someone can find a pro RKBA attorney, I would look into a nice class action lawsuit on behalf of every person who has had their privacy violated.
Why dosent the Plain Dealer go out and get the personal information of bar and liquor Store Owners and publish the personal information of these people so MADD can protest and interrupt their lives at their convenience.
Why dosent the Plain Dealer go out and get the personal information of bar and liquor Store Owners and publish the personal information of these people so MADD can protest and interrupt their lives at their convenience.
Y'all get me names & addresses that are verified (i.e. you're sure that name is the corretc one & not someone who shares the same name as the paper's employee) & I'll publish it on my site. I've been doing a quid pro quo thing with the other papers that have done this & I'll do it as long as I'm able
Here's a link to the Ohioans for Concealed Carry page that links the story along with the editors name, picture, house info, address, etc:
Send him some emails, letters.
http://www.ofcc.net/article2273.html
Send him some emails, letters.
http://www.ofcc.net/article2273.html
Browns Fan
Member
fletcher from Raleigh said:
I believe (but am not sure) they post in the paper who got their Concealed Carry Permits around where I live, too... Been doing it for the longest time
That's funny... they dont do that down here in Fayetteville.
I believe (but am not sure) they post in the paper who got their Concealed Carry Permits around where I live, too... Been doing it for the longest time
That's funny... they dont do that down here in Fayetteville.
Call this Ca$$hhole at this number
"Ohioans For Concealed Carry has learned that the editors of the Cleveland Plain Dealer have begun publishing a names of concealed handgun license-holders in Ciuyahoga Co. and five surrounding counties. Three counties, Ashtabula, Cuyahoga & Erie, were published today, and three more will be published tomorrow." ...
"The editor of the Cleveland believes in open records. Thus he should certainly have no problem with OFCC publishing his home address and telephone number:
Douglas Clifton
19 Shoreby Dr.
Cleveland, OH 44108-1161
Tel.: (216) 761-6577 " ...
"Clifton paid $550,000 for the house in 1999. He and his wife Peg reside there. They have two adult children and two grandchildren."
"Ohioans For Concealed Carry has learned that the editors of the Cleveland Plain Dealer have begun publishing a names of concealed handgun license-holders in Ciuyahoga Co. and five surrounding counties. Three counties, Ashtabula, Cuyahoga & Erie, were published today, and three more will be published tomorrow." ...
"The editor of the Cleveland believes in open records. Thus he should certainly have no problem with OFCC publishing his home address and telephone number:
Douglas Clifton
19 Shoreby Dr.
Cleveland, OH 44108-1161
Tel.: (216) 761-6577 " ...
"Clifton paid $550,000 for the house in 1999. He and his wife Peg reside there. They have two adult children and two grandchildren."
FreeAmerican
Member
I am pretty sure when I got mine they list your name in the paper here also. I am also pretty sure that in Va it is just a matter of public record and anyone can go request to see the records.
Now think about this... I really don't have a problem with it. No one has ever said anything to me about it. If you were a crook would you go to a home that you KNOW FOR SURE has someone packin in it.
I think the paper in this case is sensationalizing it and they are showing a poor attitude. Write them and cancel your subscription. And tell you fellow CCW to do the same. Hit them where it hurts.
Now think about this... I really don't have a problem with it. No one has ever said anything to me about it. If you were a crook would you go to a home that you KNOW FOR SURE has someone packin in it.
I think the paper in this case is sensationalizing it and they are showing a poor attitude. Write them and cancel your subscription. And tell you fellow CCW to do the same. Hit them where it hurts.
dukeofurl
Member
Even better - Picket line in front of the newspaper. I can see the 911 call now.
If it happened in fantasyland:
"911 Emergency"
"Yeah, I work at the Plain Dealer and theres a whole bunch of angry people with guns outside right now..."
"How do you know they have guns?"
"Well, I dont really see that they have guns but I know they do...."
"Um......hows that?"
"Well, we ran an article with all their personal information and now they're protesting and probably packing heat."
"If thats the case you folks deserve it. Call us back when they start shooting."
*click*
How it will probably happen in the real world
"911 Emergency"
"Yeah, I work at the Plain Dealer and theres a whole bunch of angry people with guns outside right now..."
"We'll send a SWAT team right away, take cover under your desk."
If it happened in fantasyland:
"911 Emergency"
"Yeah, I work at the Plain Dealer and theres a whole bunch of angry people with guns outside right now..."
"How do you know they have guns?"
"Well, I dont really see that they have guns but I know they do...."
"Um......hows that?"
"Well, we ran an article with all their personal information and now they're protesting and probably packing heat."
"If thats the case you folks deserve it. Call us back when they start shooting."
*click*
How it will probably happen in the real world
"911 Emergency"
"Yeah, I work at the Plain Dealer and theres a whole bunch of angry people with guns outside right now..."
"We'll send a SWAT team right away, take cover under your desk."
It'll be interesting to see where this goes. Looks like the public information argument is at best a gray area given what previous posters have said, but I think an argument might be made that this was an attempt to intimidate people engaged in lawful activity. I don't know how the courts or the law look on that sort of thing.
Let me give an example of what I mean by the intimidation factor: it is perfectly legal for a bunch of big white guys with shaved heads and White Power tattoos to hang around together on a street corner. But I'm not sure how a court would rule if they just happened to be "innocently" gathered outside of a polling place in a minority neighborhood at the behest of a someone with an agenda to intimidate minorities during the free exercise of their voting rights. Again, a rather gray area.
The issue of theft is also a good one. If someone could demonstrate that their home was burglarized because the criminal learned of their gun possession via the list, what is the civil liability of the paper? These weren't "public figures" the paper was exposing, but private citizens going about their own business. You just never know where a civil trial will end up. I'd be curious to know what any actual lawyers on the board have to say about this.
Let me give an example of what I mean by the intimidation factor: it is perfectly legal for a bunch of big white guys with shaved heads and White Power tattoos to hang around together on a street corner. But I'm not sure how a court would rule if they just happened to be "innocently" gathered outside of a polling place in a minority neighborhood at the behest of a someone with an agenda to intimidate minorities during the free exercise of their voting rights. Again, a rather gray area.
The issue of theft is also a good one. If someone could demonstrate that their home was burglarized because the criminal learned of their gun possession via the list, what is the civil liability of the paper? These weren't "public figures" the paper was exposing, but private citizens going about their own business. You just never know where a civil trial will end up. I'd be curious to know what any actual lawyers on the board have to say about this.
Binkster
Member
Freeamerican brings up a good point:
"Now think about this... I really don't have a problem with it. No one has ever said anything to me about it. If you were a crook would you go to a home that you KNOW FOR SURE has someone packin in it. "
That list could be used as a reference on people who would not be able to carry a consealed weapon and therefore making them an easier target. We should write a (sarcastic) letter to the editors of the newspapers thanking them publishing the list to indirectly let others know who have taken it upon themselves to provide for their own protection. I would go on to thank them for making their family and other families unarmed targets. Taking that another step (maybe too far), include a mapquest map to their residence with a note written on the top saying "Rob this house- This person is unarmed."
"Now think about this... I really don't have a problem with it. No one has ever said anything to me about it. If you were a crook would you go to a home that you KNOW FOR SURE has someone packin in it. "
That list could be used as a reference on people who would not be able to carry a consealed weapon and therefore making them an easier target. We should write a (sarcastic) letter to the editors of the newspapers thanking them publishing the list to indirectly let others know who have taken it upon themselves to provide for their own protection. I would go on to thank them for making their family and other families unarmed targets. Taking that another step (maybe too far), include a mapquest map to their residence with a note written on the top saying "Rob this house- This person is unarmed."
falconer
Member
Anyone up for a roadtrip this weekend? We could stop by Mr. Clifton's home and tell him how displeased we are with his poor decision to publish all those names.
Lennyjoe
Member
Or better yet, how about a picket line with banners that have the names, addresses, phone numbers and SSN of the bosses that run the paper.
I wonder how my name is gonna show up in the paper when I come home to visit and get my permit.
Folks are gonna look at it funny when they show my address in Tucson Arizona.
I wonder how my name is gonna show up in the paper when I come home to visit and get my permit.
Folks are gonna look at it funny when they show my address in Tucson Arizona.
Roadrunner
Member
I didn't see it mentioned here or I just plain missed it, but did any of the newspapers give any reasons why they were doing this? That's just wrong.
One or two small local papers here in Virginia tried to do the same. They may have even published a list, but the objections and response was pretty intense and the list(s) were deleted.
One or two small local papers here in Virginia tried to do the same. They may have even published a list, but the objections and response was pretty intense and the list(s) were deleted.
FreeAmerican
Member
I have been thinking about this all morning.... keep in mind this guy's main goal.. to sell papers...
What if he is trying to bait you guys... then he can say... "I had 40 gun NUTS show up at my house with GUNS! This is why we can not let people carry guns."
If that happens we will be in the same boat as Spiderman!
What if he is trying to bait you guys... then he can say... "I had 40 gun NUTS show up at my house with GUNS! This is why we can not let people carry guns."
If that happens we will be in the same boat as Spiderman!
George S.
Member
So what is the law in Ohio regarding the release of CCW license holder names to the public or media?? If there is no specific statute about confidentiality of this information, then the media will continue to publish this information and of course they will use the 1st Amendment as their argument.
IF there is no specific law, than Ohio CCW holders must work with state legislatures to create a law that specifically prohibits the release of the information. It should be a felony with stiff penalties for violating the law.
The media has taken "the right of the public to know" too far. In a lot of cases, I really don't give a royal rat's azz about detailed information about somebody's life, troubles, where they eat, or whatever. I believe we have just as much a right to personal privacy as we do to own and possess firearms.
And if you look real close into the "motives" of the media and specifically newspapers, they only really care about the bottom line: PROFIT. They sell papers to make money. The day of the honest and trustworthy print journalist is long since gone. They are now no more than the newspaper version of Geraldo.
IF there is no specific law, than Ohio CCW holders must work with state legislatures to create a law that specifically prohibits the release of the information. It should be a felony with stiff penalties for violating the law.
The media has taken "the right of the public to know" too far. In a lot of cases, I really don't give a royal rat's azz about detailed information about somebody's life, troubles, where they eat, or whatever. I believe we have just as much a right to personal privacy as we do to own and possess firearms.
And if you look real close into the "motives" of the media and specifically newspapers, they only really care about the bottom line: PROFIT. They sell papers to make money. The day of the honest and trustworthy print journalist is long since gone. They are now no more than the newspaper version of Geraldo.
El Rojo
Member
I would vote for publishing them anyway. Most people aren't going to harrass the little guys and if they do, hopefully the little guys harrass management to do what it takes to get them off of that list. If they get upset and blame the pro-gun groups, then obviously they support this kind of thing and they deserve no protection for supporting it. I think I might call that phone number just for the fun of it. I bet it is disconnected.
The best approach to this sort of thing may be contacting the advertisers who keep the doors of the paper open and telling them that you will not be doing business with any company that supports any paper that does this!
Send a letter to the editor saying the same thing.
Organize as many people together as possible and send a letter with their signaures to the paper and the advertisers.
Prepare a petition asking if the public wants the new paper to publish all the names and addresses of everyone that applys for a building permit, divorce, a handgun permit or any other legal activity or even is ticked or arrested for any misdemeanor from jaywalking to DUI and try to get as many people to sign it as possible and then send it in to the paper and advertisers.
Hit them in the bank and they may change editors.
Send a letter to the editor saying the same thing.
Organize as many people together as possible and send a letter with their signaures to the paper and the advertisers.
Prepare a petition asking if the public wants the new paper to publish all the names and addresses of everyone that applys for a building permit, divorce, a handgun permit or any other legal activity or even is ticked or arrested for any misdemeanor from jaywalking to DUI and try to get as many people to sign it as possible and then send it in to the paper and advertisers.
Hit them in the bank and they may change editors.
George S.
Member
It sounds like the Ohio law regarding release of information needs to be changed. CCW license holders need to contact their legislators and demand a change in the law that will make it illegal to release ANY information to the public.
While law enforcement agencies may have a reasonable and justifiable need to get information from a CCW database, newspapers do not. Until changes are made, it sounds like this sort of thing may continue.
And IMHO, the newspapers are doing this more to sell papers and make a profit and not because of any self-righteous desire to speak the "truth". While I believe in the 1st Amendment, when the media use it as a shield to further their political and financial stands, something needs to be done.
So the good citizens of Ohio need to get to work and tell their lawmakers that this has to stop. All it takes is to have one person harmed or even killed because of this assinine desire of the media to publish information about people who simply wish to protect themselves from violence and hopefully the lawmakers will act.
You can bet that if some tragedy happens because of the actions of the papers, they will not share in any blame nor accept any responsibility for letting the information out.
While law enforcement agencies may have a reasonable and justifiable need to get information from a CCW database, newspapers do not. Until changes are made, it sounds like this sort of thing may continue.
And IMHO, the newspapers are doing this more to sell papers and make a profit and not because of any self-righteous desire to speak the "truth". While I believe in the 1st Amendment, when the media use it as a shield to further their political and financial stands, something needs to be done.
So the good citizens of Ohio need to get to work and tell their lawmakers that this has to stop. All it takes is to have one person harmed or even killed because of this assinine desire of the media to publish information about people who simply wish to protect themselves from violence and hopefully the lawmakers will act.
You can bet that if some tragedy happens because of the actions of the papers, they will not share in any blame nor accept any responsibility for letting the information out.
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