Next tension problem

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Paddy

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So I've got an issue with my recent 300winmag loads. I'm not getting enough neck tension to hold the bullets. I checked the expander ball and it slides freely so I don't think its too big. I'm using some FL hornady new dimension dies. I reluctantly tried to fix the problem with a crimp using the seating die, but can't seem to crimp em without crushing the case back.

So, is this a problem with too thin brass? Or is the brass need springing back and need annealed?

Or...?

Actually in measuring my bullets they appear a bit over size, maybe .309-.310 these are military pulls. I would thinkna bigger bullet would help increase neck tension though?
 
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You cannot fix poor neck tension with crimping.

If you size leaving the expander out, and seat a bullet, do you have enough neck tension?

New brass, old brass?
 
sounds like your expander is too big, easy fix with a drill and some sand paper...just go slow and take your time
 
Do you have previous experience resizing bottle neck brass, or is this your first attempt?

And have you ever used the New Dimension dies before?

Are you using the right size bushing?

Are you sure you have the resizing die properly adjusted, so as to completely size the brass? I'm not familiar with the set up for New Dimension dies, but with RCBS dies, the die needs to be touching the shell holder, or very close when the ram is at full extension in order to size far enough down the neck to provide adequate neck tension.

GS
 
Yes I'm still a bit green but I'm loading some smaller calibers with frequent success at this point.
I have used hornady sizers one time before, but ended up changing to redding Bushing dies for that cartridge. This set jumped out at me in a remote area at a gas station, and they were used. They do not have bushings, simply a FL set and what I've done to determine the setting is to size Down an empty case until it just chambers easily in my rifle. I figured that was the best way to reduce brass wear and maximize accuracy. This might be my problem then, I'm chambering but not sized enough for neck tension?

I don't have any case gauges for his cal.

Is a typical jacketed 308 bullet about .309"?
 
No, a typical .308" bullet is .308".

Screw the FL sizing die down until it touches the shell holder.
Size a case.

See if the case will chamber, and if you have case neck tension then.

If the bolt won't close on the sized case, screw the die down another 1/8 turn or so more to take out the press frame springing and linkage compression.

Then try it again.

The expander for a .308 should measure no more then .3065" or so.
Check that too.


rc
 
RC does it again!

I also think you might be confusing some of the features of the New Dimension die. It has individual bushings of varied sizes, this is so a reloader can achieve a specific or customized amount of desired neck tension.

As for shoulder bump, which is what pushes the shoulders back to the degree that allows it to chamber, that is accomplished by how much the die is screwed down. However, if the die isn't screwed down enough, the neck, body, and shoulder will not get sized / bumped sufficiently.

For a new reloader, I honestly think it's best to just start out with the common every day FL die, RCBS for instance. $35 or $40 later one has an excellent die set. And although the custom or competition type dies may offer some advantages such as controlled neck tension, self centering mechanisms, they aren't necessary or imperative for loading accurate shooting ammo.

GS
 
Very cool. I tried a case without button and it came out very small neck. Measured the button and it said about .307 so I polished it down maybe 1/3 thou, I didn't get the mics out but I did get the nice calipers for the job. Then I screwed in the die till contact, which was about a full turn more than where I was at. Seems to have good tension now! I haven't chambered one but I'm confident it will since I was chambering them at a turn lighter than now.

However, maybe these dies are in the wrong box, but there is no bushing in the sizer at all, just the decap rod and the collet which holds it. My other hornady FL die is also this way, so maybe these are "old dimension"? I dunno, but I only paid 25$ for the set so I'm not out a bunch and they seem to do the job, I was just way off base with the procedure. I'd like to get into bushings someday, I like the way my 223 setup runs with them, but I'd like to learn as much as I can from these first, and I'm not sure how long this rifle will be with me anyway.

Thanks for the help fellows!
 
If you size leaving the expander out, and seat a bullet, do you have enough neck tension?
Click to expand...

Unless he is seating boat tail bullets I am surprised he can start the bullet after removing the expander ball/plug.

Without the expander I would thing he would have all the bullet hold he could stand.

Lyman thought crimping was a bad ideal, Years ago. They suggested crimping could reduce bullet hold.

F. Guffey
 
Yes removing the ball made for a case mouth about .300. After a quick polish on the button and correct die height adjust I'm getting .306 if I remember right. It was all of last night so I have already lost my mind.
 
Unless he is seating boat tail bullets I am surprised he can start the bullet after removing the expander ball/plug.

Without the expander I would thing he would have all the bullet hold he could stand.
Click to expand...
That is simply to check whether the expander is too big. if the inside of the case mouth is chamfered it will accept a bullet unle4ss it is super tight. Even if it scraps the bullet and ruins it, we will have our answer. But yes, without the expander being used he should have all the neck tension/bullet hold he can stand, but we need to check to be sure.

Sounds like he found his answer. :)
 
Another option is to remove the neck expander from your die so you don't have to expand on the pull stroke. Many times expanding on the pull stoke also pulls the necks crooked.

You could buy a separate neck expander die that works on the push stroke instead. It is easier to get a straight neck working off the flat base of the case. They are also very cheap.
 
Wouldn't the regular button also work on the push stroke if done in 2 steps?
Click to expand...

Not on a fired case, the sizer plug dies not touch the neck when the ram is raised, When the case is sized the neck diameter is reduced, with the sizer plug inside the case when the ram is lowered the plug increases the diameter of the neck.

There are questions about what happens when the plug is pulled through the neck.

F. Guffey
 
Right, so couldn't a fellow size without the carbide ball, and then reset the die so the ball would open the neck, but not do any sizing of the case? It's another step, but would allow the neck expanding to happen on the insertion stroke rather than on extraction.
 
You are way over-thinking this and making it way more complicated then it is.

The pull through expander works perfectly or every die company wouldn't still be making them after 75 years.

If you are concerned about stretching the shoulders forward, inside lube the case necks before sizing.

rc
 
Yes I'm using lube on the necks too, I was just addressing what Ron go was saying about it potentially being better on the insertion. I've read a lot about guys such as yourselves moving away from the expander balls for accuracy loads.
I want to get as many variables eliminated as possible on this cartridge but I'm sure I have a long way to go before that matters.
 
Another option is to remove the neck expander from your die so you don't have to expand on the pull stroke. Many times expanding on the pull stoke also pulls the necks crooked.

You could buy a separate neck expander die that works on the push stroke instead. It is easier to get a straight neck working off the flat base of the case. They are also very cheap.
Click to expand...

I will take his word for it, he did not furnish links.

I do not remove the primer punch/sizer ball assemble from my dies when sizing cases. I have spent a lot of time necking cases up, some cases shorten .035" when necked up from 30/06 to 338/06 or 35 Whelen.
Through the forming and firing process I have had cases shorten .045", when finished I have fired those cases in some very accurate rifles. The rifles were very accurate before the forming process started.

Years ago RCBS offered different size sizer plugs. A friend builds very accurate bench type rifles, he called and informed me he sold one to a shooter that complained about the diameter of the neck in the chamber, I asked if the shooter complained about accuracy. Long story short I formed cases for his wildcat. When finished he had room for .002" case neck expansion.

F. Guffey
 
One of the few things that doesn't change when a case is fired is the base remaining flat. It is also easier to keep the shell holder flat to the ram and flat to the base of the case. Therefore it is much easier getting the expander on the push stroke straight.

They sell tools from Sinclair or Redding to check for neck concentricity if you wanted to check. I check ease case on my rifle rounds.

Using the neck expander on your FL sizing die relies on more variables. The shell holder is gripping onto the rim of your case which is difficult to keep perfectly straight compared to the case base. Also there is slack built into the fit of the case base and the shell holder. Then when you pull the case down, you need the expander to pull perfectly. The longer the neck the more difficult. It all adds up to concentriity issues.

Most of the time you don't need to worry about this little improvement, but if reducing variables and improving everywhere possible for your rifle rounds is the goal, then this is an easy step.
 
Also there is slack built into the fit of the case base and the shell holder
Click to expand...

I do not find the slack a disadvantage, I have shell holders with slack and I have shell holders that do not have slack. Seems the question about case neck bending should be about when it bends, does it happen before the sizer is pulled through or when the sizer is pulled through.

The same question applies to pulling the shoulder forward when the sizer is pulled through the neck.

When it comes to advantage to slack the Lee shell holder has more slack than the RCBS.

So I've got an issue with my recent 300winmag loads. I'm not getting enough neck tension to hold the bullets.
Click to expand...

The 300 Win Mag is in the family of short neck cases, I have a 30 Gibbs chamber that has a short neck of .217", some claim the 300 Win Mag is too short, .217" is shorter, I expect my Gibbs cases to have less bullet hold.

F. Guffey
 
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I would anneal these cases and try again. I had bullet tension problems a couple of years ago. A propane torch and a pan of water and no more problems. Do not over heat.
 
Is there a number of times loaded before annealing is necessitated? Is work hardening the culprit behind this?
 
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