Super weak neck tension after resize

[Larryswn]

Hello there fellas! I'm almost outta new brass so it's on to phase 2 of the reloading process and I've already got a problem. I've been loading .223 and 5.56 only. The .223 crimps like a champ so I'm not too worried about the neck tension but the 5.56 brass simply will not crimp at all without very slight shoulder deformation. When both brasses were brand new neck tension was great but after resizing it's very easy to push the cartridge against my bench and push the bullet into the case :-/. It's a mag fed semi auto so........Any thoughts? Maybe the 5.56 will crimp now that it's been fired and is a little thinner? Please excuse any dumb questions, I'm still new. 2,000 rounds without a single problem! So far so good! Thanks in advance.

 

[243winxb]

To much crimp may make the bullets loose in the neck. Try not crimping.

Read instruction on setting the FL sizing die adjustment, again. What brand and type, if not FL die?

Measure the expander, should be .222" or close to it.

 

[Larryswn]

Hornady FL and crimp die. I ran some brand new cases through it and the expander did not seem to open the neck too much as the bullet went in tight.

 

[.308 Norma]

243winxb types faster than I do. That's what I was going to say.

 

[243winxb]

Try some fired brass in the FL die, if some is available.

If the bullet is loose. Remove the expander and FL size. This will show if the FL die is working correctly.

Brass with thin neck walls may not be sized small enough with a FL die, but not a common problem.

 

[1KPerDay]

Try not crimping and see if they pass the push test. Then check your expander ball.

 

[Larryswn]

According to my Hornady manual, for semi autos it's highly advisable to resize full length?.............Uh oh, confusion time again

 

[Larryswn]

Try not crimping and see if they pass the push test. Then check your expander ball.

I backed the crimp off. No crimp. I would say it takes about 10 lbs of pressure to push the bullet in. Doesn't seem like much.

 

[243winxb]

Should take 35 pounds or more to make the bullet move. Push against a bathroom scale with a dummy round. No primer or powder.

 

[Larryswn]

I think my wife got rid of it! I can use a refrigerant scale at work though. Good advice

 

[hdwhit]

Larryswn wrote:
I'm almost outta new brass so it's on to phase 2 of the reloading process and I've already got a problem.I've been loading .223 and 5.56 only. The .223 crimps like a champ so I'm not too worried about the neck tension but the 5.56 brass simply will not crimp at all without very slight shoulder deformation.

So, do I understand this right that you had new brass that you have loaded and fired and you are now reloading it as truly "once fired" brass?

Who made the .223 brass and the 5.56 brass?

Do you have calipers or a micrometer that will let you measure the neck diameters as well as thickness of the brass and compare the .223 cases to the 5.56 cases? If so, what are the differences?

 

[Jesse Heywood]

According to my Hornady manual, for semi autos it's highly advisable to resize full length?.............Uh oh, confusion time again

According to your earlier post:

Hornady FL and crimp die.

you have the full length sizing die. So you are performing a full length sizing. Neck sizing does not size the case body, just the end that is bottle necked.

On .223 I only do a minimal taper crimp. Just a couple of thousandths less than the neck diameter. With jacketed bullets, the crimp doesn't hold a jacketed bullet, the friction between the bullet and the case neck holds the bullet in place. Crimping moves brass from the case end to the neck, increasing the neck size. If your push test fails, the next step is to check the diameter of the expander button, which can be reduced by sanding. But don't do that until we have decided what the problem is.

 

[Robert101]

Have you used these bullets previously? On thin brass necks a smaller diameter bullet might not get the neck tension it needs. I typically fine sand down my expander ball to the dimensions previously given to you (.002 smaller than the bullet diameter). Bringing the expander ball to a shine also helps in reducing drag at stage one position (re-sizing and de-priming) as well. I put mine in a drill chuck and hit it with 5W oil on 800 grit sand paper for bright shine.

 

[Larryswn]

So, do I understand this right that you had new brass that you have loaded and fired and you are now reloading it as truly "once fired" brass?

Who made the .223 brass and the 5.56 brass?

Do you have calipers or a micrometer that will let you measure the neck diameters as well as thickness of the brass and compare the .223 cases to the 5.56 cases? If so, what are the differences?

You are correct. The brass is Lake City. Not at home at the moment so I don't know the differences but yes I have calipers.

 

[hdwhit]

What has me puzzled is that you say "The .223 crimps like a champ so I'm not too worried about the neck tension but the 5.56 brass simply will not crimp" it is going through the same die, what's the difference?

I would be interested to see if there are any dimensional differences that might explain this.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I doubt there are any differences between brass stamped .223 Rem and 5.56mm. Something else is going on here. I also find it strange the OP us talking about crimping being the problem. Is it the crimp or neck tension that is the problem? You really shouldn't need to crimp those rounds. I add a very light factory crimp to iron out the case mouth on ammo used in a semi-auto but no more.

 

[ants]

I haven't crimped 223/556 for any of my guns, I've been loading that cartridge since the late 1990's.
For reloading purposes, there is no difference between 223 and 556 brass except the crimped primer pocket.
If you think 5.56 brass is 'thicker' you might go over here and scroll down about 1/3 way to check it out.

 

[R. Cobb]

Your necks maybe hardened and springing back out after sizing.
I'm into anealing about every 3rd. time I reload my cases. My case necks retained the same size as my expansion ball's diameter.
Be careful in polishing the expansion ball and not go to far. .221 to .222 what I look for.
No crimp needed.

 

[Kaldor]

A couple things that might need further explanation:

Neck tension is set by your expander ball as you cycle the case out of the sizing die, therefor you need to measure the expander ball. Should be right around .222" as the bullets should be .224". Check both of these things and see how they measure up.

Crimping may or may not be necessary bullet depending if you have good neck tension. I use a Lee FCD for every load. For bullets with canellure I lightly crimp into the cannelure. For bullets without cannelure, I just use the FCD to remove the very slight expansion from the M-Die I use when I run on the progressive, so just a kiss. I dont like using a taper crimp as the potential for something to go wrong is much higher and it isnt as sensitive to trim length on case.

223 and 5.56 brass are exactly the same thing after being sized with a 223 sizing die and trimmed to length. There are very minor differences in the case if it is factory ammo which is why they say dont shoot 5.56 in a 223 barrel.

You do need to FL size all semi auto rifle brass. Neck sizing is for bolt guns, and those even need FL sizing every 3-4 firings.

As others have said, test your neck tension with a dummy round. A crimp is not an alternative to proper neck tension.

You may also be experiencing some spring back. When 223 cases get around 4-6 loadings, the necks get work hardened and will spring back. Your expander might be .222, but post sizing the case opens to say .223 which is will reduce neck tension a great deal. Actual count that is takes depends largely on brass brand. LC brass is generally very good, and should see 5 or more reloads before it gets really work hardened in my experience.

 

[Larryswn]

What has me puzzled is that you say "The .223 crimps like a champ so I'm not too worried about the neck tension but the 5.56 brass simply will not crimp" it is going through the same die, what's the difference?

I would be interested to see if there are any dimensional differences that might explain this.

 

[Larryswn]

Expander ball is .223. Guess that explains it. Why on earth would they make it that way?????????

 

[Schwing]

Most of this has already been covered but I will throw in my .02. First, neck tension is very rarely increased by crimping. In .223 it really doesn't add any at all. As a matter of fact, too much crimp often reduces neck tension. I am firmly in the camp that says you shouldn't crimp at all unless you are having reliability issues (Personally I have never had reliability issues with any .223 reloads). Even then, I tend to flare my cases less (or not at all when possible) before adding more crimp. For me this is true with any round with the exception of straight wall handgun calibers like .357 or .44.

The second point and, IMHO, more likely to be the issue is that your expander ball is either over sizing the necks or your bullets are too small. Measure the inside diameter of a few re-sized cases. Calipers will work. If you have access to gauge pins that is better. You need to verify that the inside diameter is smaller than the bullets. It wouldn't hurt to measure a few before and after sizing to see just how much your sizer is expanding them.

If you are using LC brass and having fired it more than once, I really don't think you are having spring-back issues. It takes several reloads for the necks to harden.

 

[.308 Norma]

Expander ball is .223. Guess that explains it. Why on earth would they make it that way?????????

Ah, man! What a pain! Good question though. I just measured the expander ball in the new set of RCBS dies I bought - it's only .221. I guess you'll have to contact your die manufacturer and have them send you a stem with a smaller expander ball.
I'm another one of those "don't crimp bottle-necked cases unless you are having reliability issues" guys. I've heard it said that a crimp is necessary to prevent the remaining bullets in the magazine from being driven deeper into the cases during recoil. But I've had (have) some pretty hard kicking rifles and never seen that happen.

 

[hdwhit]

Larryswn wrote:
Expander ball is .223. Guess that explains it.

Agreed.

I suggest you call Hornady and talk to them about getting one that is .222

As far as crimping .223 Remington goes, my rule is if the bullet has a cannelure, I lightly taper crimp - just enough to start moving the case mouth into the groove. If there is no cannelure, no crimp. But crimp or no crimp, I've never had the bullets in my reloads moved by the force of the recoil or any other jostling of the magazine.

 

[Larryswn]

Thanks fellas