NFA at a non nfa dealer, what would you do?

[boom boom]

I was taught that the only correct way to measure barrel length (and the way used by the ATF) was to drop a rod calibrated to exactly 16.0" down the pipe and then to rake a straight edge across the muzzle to see if the dowel is below or not.

It boggles my mind how someone can hang out on a pro-2A site and presumably espouse a sympathetic view towards gun rights and then run out and call the police on a gun shop because a second hand shotty measures a smudge under 16" with a tape measure, like they were some kind of self appointed firearms consultant to law enforcement.

You potentially put this mans personal freedom and lively hood on the line over what? 1/32"?

I've had brand new tape measures fail cal at work by that much.

I'm stunned!

It was a shotgun according to the op--18 inches for those but otherwise correct.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/which-firearms-are-regulated-under-nfa

 

[luzyfuerza]

Wrong. read the DD definition: § 5845(f)(2).
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title26/pdf/USCODE-2011-title26-subtitleE-chap53.pdf

Forgot about the 50 caliber limit...a centerfire rifle larger than 50 caliber is a DD. Entropy is right.

From 5845 (f) (2), the definition of destructive devices:

"...any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes;...".

mea culpa!

 

[Scooter22]

I don't see a issue with the OP. He saw something very ileagle that a unsuspecting buyer could have gotten in serious trouble purchasing. Would I have called the PD? I don't know. I would have brought it back up the salesman. If he didn't want to check it out then maybe I would have. Before anyone says "Buyer beware" when you go into a legit gunshop these days most would expect whats for sale is totally leagle. Thats my expectation and if it's not and may hurt a customer then something should be done about it. I had a similar experience with a chain of local sporting goods stores. After the national AWB expired they got a shipment of AKs in. Problem was they had all the features. NY state was still under the AWB rules so they had to still be featureless. I told the counter guy those are ileagle and he said they were ok. I asked to talked to the manager, who I was familiar with from years of going to those stores. When I told him his eyes popped out and said they got the wrong guns shipped. He got on the phone and called the other 6 stores to tell them to pull the AKs immediately. He thanked me very sincerely because I saved them from possibly getting into serious trouble of selling a customer a ileagle fire arm. I told him I was also glad I noticed the problem. On the way out the girl at the service desk called me over and handed me a 50.00 dollar gift certificate. Another Thanks from the manager.

 

[dogtown tom]

Anyone who hangs out a shingle as a licensed gun dealer darn well better know what constitutes an NFA firearm. (not to mention how to measure bbl length and OAL).

While no one wants to rat out the dealer to ATF, his willful ignorance and refusal to acknowledge that he has short barreled shotgun on his rack means HE DOESN'T CARE what happens to his customers. If he sells that firearm to an unsuspecting customer, ignorant of NFA law, and the customer later gets crosswise with ATF or local police.........shame on the dealer. As evidenced by some of the posts in this thread, not every "gun guy" takes the time to read ATF regs. That's sad, because all it takes to never be able to hold, shoot, possess or hunt with a firearm is to get crosswise with Federal law.

I would first mail/deliver a letter addressed to the actual owner of that shop explaining why that shotgun is actually an SBS.
I believe most states have state laws that address "short barreled shotguns"....so a call to the local PD might yield results.

 

[warnerwh]

I'd never call anybody. It's possible it is a mistake. I'd ask for the manager. Why create a fuss?

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I'll repeat this story.
Local guy bought a Winchester Model 12 at a prison surplus auction.
Got it home and discovered the barrel was slightly under 18".
He called the local branch of ATF and they advised him to remove the barrel from the gun, take it to a gunsmith and have a permanent extension added to make the barrel legal. (I believe he opted for a Cutts Compensator.)

And ATF measures barrel length with the breech closed, drop a rod down the barrel, mark it even with the muzzle, measure the rod against an accurate measuring stick. ATF barrel length is breechface to muzzle.

I have an old pump that measures 18 1/4" breechface to muzzle, but only shows 17 1/2" from front of receiver to muzzle (about 3/4" of the barrel is threaded into the receiver).

 

[Skgreen]

FWIW, I certainly wouldn't worry about the Individual who may have bought it 'un-knowingly'.

And,,,,,,,,, No one has mentioned anything about the stock,,,,,

With a 'birdhead' grip, it's technically no longer a shotgun,,,, It's then defined as 'other', 100% NOT NFA, and 16" is about 2 inches longer than most,,,,

 

[entropy]

With a 'birdhead' grip, it's technically no longer a shotgun,,

Not true.



ATF has ruled that it cannot ever had a buttstock on it in order to qualify as other. I'm sure some of the SOT's on this forum can verify that-AI&P Tactical has asserted this before on his forum. It either has to have had a birdshead grip installed at the factory, (Shockwave and Tac-14) or on a virgin receiver from the factory. (Black Aces Tactical) Removing a buttstock on a regular shotgun, installing a barrel shorter than 18" but making it so the OAL is over 26" creates an SBS.

 

[BSA1]

The ATF would likely seize the barrel (maybe the receiver too), and have a lecture. If the FFL goes on to sell an unregistered SBS, I expect that would be much worse both for the FFL and perhaps for the buyer.

Are you a employee of or a agent for the BATFE?

Unless you are your comment about what the BATFE will do has no foundation.

I left empty handed, and won’t go back there for a long time.

Put yourself in that situation, do you make the phone call?

If you accomplish your goal of putting the gun shop out-of-business it certainly will be along time before you go back there.

Personally I have my hands full just living and dealing with the problems that come my way. I see no reason to cause harm especially that will potentially involve fines, loss of FFL, legal fees for defense, bankruptcy, imprisonment and not to mention the impact it will also have on the owners family to someone that has not harmed me or my family.

You have come to THR to gain support for your decision which some members have done.

 

[Skgreen]

Not true.



ATF has ruled that it cannot ever had a buttstock on it in order to qualify as other. I'm sure some of the SOT's on this forum can verify that-AI&P Tactical has asserted this before on his forum. It either has to have had a birdshead grip installed at the factory, (Shockwave and Tac-14) or on a virgin receiver from the factory. (Black Aces Tactical) Removing a buttstock on a regular shotgun, installing a barrel shorter than 18" but making it so the OAL is over 26" creates an SBS.

Well heck,

Feel free to continue with whatever it is y'all are attempting to accomplish,,,

 

[George P]

Forgot about the 50 caliber limit...a centerfire rifle larger than 50 caliber is a DD. Entropy is right.

Not true; there a few exceptions, mostly for very large dangerous game. The 577 T-Rex, the 600 Nitro Express, etc. are not DDs but sporting arms

 

[Nuclear]

It might date from before the NFA, which means it would be grandfathered, and hence not an NFA item.

Or am I interpreting the law wrong?

 

[Sistema1927]

If nothing else, this thread demonstrates that most gun control regulations are ridiculously complex and designed to be hard to understand.

 

[silicosys4]

If nothing else, this thread demonstrates that most gun control regulations are ridiculously complex and designed to be hard to understand.

Not in this case. The law is pretty clear. 18" minimum barrel length for shotguns.
My take: just because you sell guns doesn't mean you are excused for being grossly negligent at your job. Guns aren't a magic talisman that excuse all character flaws and mistakes, especially if that mistake could cost your customer a felony and prison term.

The law is the law. If you can' follow it or remain ignorant of its most basic guidelines and expect your customers to take the fall for your mistakenly not following it I don' want you in business whether you sell guns or caddillacs

 

[Scooter22]

I just stumbled across what looked like it might be a good deal, a cut down bolt action 20 ga for 99.95. It looked awfully short, so I asked for a tape measure and measured the barrel from breachface to muzzle at just under 16”. I asked if it was listed as a SBS but was told “we don’t handle nfa items” and the guy put it back in the sale rack.

I left empty handed, and won’t go back there for a long time. Since the gun went back to the sale rack, i was concerned about somebody else buying and ending up in trouble over it, so I called local PD.

Put yourself in that situation, do you make the phone call?

I think this statement is pretty simple, clear and factual. The gun was measured correctly and it's at least 2" shorter than the legal minimum length of 18" for a shotgun. So it's ileagle under the standard definition of a shotgun. Now beyond that I don't know but theres a lot of speculation in this thread. But the bottom line is as it sits in the rack it's ileagle to own if you just go in and buy it from that shop. The person in possession of that gun is the one breaking the law.

 

[GRIZ22]

Local LE isn't going to prosecute a federal matter.

Calling the authorities is not something I'd be particularly inclined to do, but.......

Most, if not all state laws, mimic the Federal law when it comes to barrel lengths on shotguns and rifles.

 

[Robert]

THR advocates for following the law, even the ones we do not agree with. Do what you believe is right, but we are done here.