What Would You Do? Full-auto SKS?

[C96]

444 ~ Amen and Amen !! Involving the F-Troop in anything is very dangerous business
to all involved and especially to any kittens that happen to be in the neigborhood.

There is absolutely no downside for them in anything they do.

 

[444]

This will probably be taken as an attack, but is it any wonder why we are losing our liberties and our right to own firearms when you read the posts on a thread like this ?

 

[WT]

444 - I've got to agree with you. We have a host of BATFE Informers here. They are doing it to save the children.

 

[WayneConrad]

Manedwolf wrote, "I take it you don't understand what the issue is. If someone put a full mag in in their home or apartment and slammed the bolt closed, it could very fell just START FIRING on full-auto through walls, kids, people in the next house or other apartments.

"Could you live with that on your concience, if you saw "Gun accident kills neighbor" on the evening news?"

I think I do understand the issue.

Saving the neighbor's kids from an imaginary and unlikely scenario is not worth summoning the BATFE demon. Any aspiring conjurer thinking that the BATFE demon can be controlled so that it will do only good will soon learn better. Even if it does what you want this time, summoning it makes it stronger and less controllable the next time.

I'll sleep just fine. I didn't break the gun, I didn't sell the gun, and I even attempted to let the owner know there was a problem. I focused on the real problem and told the owner it was unsafe. I didn't distract the owner with the word "illegal."

The real issue here is selling an unsafe product. If you really want to save the neighbor's kids from the full-auto SKS, calling BATFE will take too long. The gun might be sold before they get around to doing something about it. Make yourself a sign that says:

Unsafe SKS being sold inside. Beware!

and picket the place. If someone walks out with the SKS, let them know what the problem is. It's the only sure way to save the children.

 

[Sistema1927]

The scary thing here is not a broken SKS.

Instead, it is the fact that "The High Road" is populated with people who think:

1) Ratting out a business to the ATF is a good thing;
2) That by so doing they are protecting "the children" from an unsafe gun; and
3) Meddling in the affairs of others is acceptable.

All firearms purchasers should ensure that any weapon they buy is safe. If they are unsure, they should enlist the help of a gunsmith or other expert. Also, with every semi-auto that I have ever bought, new or used, I have taken care to load one round and shoot it, then load two and shoot them, then 3, etc. until I am sure that it won't run away. This is their responsibility as a responsible firearms owner. It isn't anyone else's business, and it is insulting that some folks here want to be the protectors of others.

 

[fatelk]

worn sear

This is my first post on this forum, thought I needed to throw in my two cents worth. The SKS has a sear that is controlled by the trigger and a disconnector that is controlled by the closing of the bolt. I have seen one and heard of several occasions where the sear edge becomes worn and rounded to the point where it no longer controls the hammer. It will fire when the bolt is closed and continue firing until the magazine is empty. The owner of the rifle I repaired thought is was great fun and couldn't possibly be illegal since it was a legitimate malfunction. I told him: 1. Very dangerous 2. Yes- illegal unless repaired ASAP, which we then did. The edge of the sear can be sharpened with a file like we did to fix it in a matter of minutes, but it is better to simply buy a new sear, they are inexpensive and available. This is a relatively common malfunction and easily repaired if you have some mechanical abilities and common sense.

As to the gun shop, I see absolutely no reason to involve the ATF. This is a dangerous malfunction, not a crime. Simply return to the shop, politely explain what you think the problem is, this is a common malfunction with the SKS, very dangerous and even illegal if not repaired ASAP, and strongly recomend they have a gunsmith look at it before selling it. They would have to be insane or on drugs to not at the very least have it looked at.

 

[Linux&Gun Guy]

I would not report it to the ATF. All such "reporting of a non-crime" is ratting and thus not ethical or good.

Instead either ignore it or buy it and remove the offending parts and dump them in a river and repair it.

It is up to the person buying the *used* gun to make sure it is safe.

I agree 444 - Just like the more well known DEA the ATF is becoming a scary threat to us Americans.

 

[ajax]

I personally wouldn't go as for as calling on the BATFE but he has a responsibility as a gun owner who knows something is wrong with a firearm that for all intents and purposes could end up in inexperienced hands and cause harm. Firearm responsibilty doesn't stop with the 4 rules. 444 you and the sit quiet guys are showing as for as I'm concerned a real lack of responsibilty attitude as gun owners ,and yes you were attacking in first thread. The fact that you would say we're losing rights because some of the guys here would make an effort to do something when you would do nothing makes no sense to me. How about guys like you who would chance what could happen and if it did it would give anti's even more ammo. So maybe it's you and guys like you that hurt our rights with your lack of responsibility.

 

[Manedwolf]

I point the gun out, tell her what I told the first woman, tell her the above potential scenerio, and pretty much insist that they need to get it looked at. She leaves it on the rack and tells me that she'll tell her husband. I suggested that she take it off the rack and tag it as needing repair, as they don't want to sell it that way, and she leaves it on the rack, tells me that they don't have room for it in the back, and just tells me, again, that she'll let her husband know.

And despite the fact that it's obvious she wasn't going to do a thing about it, and would just sell it as-is...I really can't believe people are okay with that. "No room in the back" for a slender rifle? Talk about a line of BS...

Yeah, BATF can be a pain, but they can also be used for their PURPOSE.

And I couldn't let a seller get away with that any more than I'd not call the cops if I saw a car driving around with three wheels.

BAD sellers like that are WHY the BATFE gets more power to harass the good ones. Ever think about that? If they sell a gun, there's an accident, then the opportunistic politicians, media and BATFE can go "You see? All gun sellers are dangerous, we need to regulate them more! SKSs are dangerous old imports, see, they need to be banned or subject to another $$ inspection approval and modification when imported!"

Whereas one call, one agent pulling the gun and slapping them with a fine would be quiet, and no call for media anything.

Bad, unsafe gun sellers are not any friend of 2A defenders. They're no different than people who sell beer to kids and get the liquor laws tightened as a result, punishing the lawful sellers. And defending them, rather than having them knocked into line, only hurts the good ones in the long run.

 

[albanian]

$219 is not a good price for a Norinco so buying it will be a money losing situation. Why would you want to pay top dollar for a gun that you know is broken from a gunshop that doesn't even care? I suggest you make it the gunshop's problem and not your own. It is not your duty to ensure that every rifle in the store is safe, it is the gunshop's duty. You can infrom people that will enforce the laws and safety but it is not always wise to try and save the world.

I would talk to the owner and let him know that you know there is an unsafe rifle in his store and you think he should fix it. You may want to go back and get the SN# as well. Write it down and send it to the police. If someone buys it and has a bad accident, the police will have known before hand that the gun was unsafe and that the gunshop knowningly sold it that way.

 

[Gevarm]

fatelk, pics on what you said

 

[Joey2]

I would bring it up with the store owner ONLY, and only because it is a safety issue with the gun in the hands of an untrained person.

 

[444]

EDIT:
I went in and took a shower and tried to come to grips with this. I realize that this guy is going to do what he is going to do and trying to reason with him is not going to do any good. I understand the motivation, but bringing it up isn't going to help.


"Whereas one call, one agent pulling the gun and slapping them with a fine would be quiet, and no call for media anything."
Please understand that this isn't going to happen. This isn't like a parking ticket. I don't think you understand this. Please, Please listen. That isn't going to happen.
As I said previously: the same violence is going to be unleased as would be unleased on the head of a Cocaine cartel.
They don't just give out a fine and say have a nice day.

Let me give you a sort of related example. This wasn't the ATF, but the result will be the same. This is an absolute true story.
A friend of mine was married for a short time to a Russian mail order bride. After she got to this country she met a police officer and moved in with him. Appearently she was worried that he would cause some problems with her immigration status, so either she or her boyfriend turned him in as a drug dealer.
At o'dark thrity a tactical narcotics team complete with black hoods and machine guns kicked in his front and back door. He was grabbed from his bed, handcuffed and taken to the front yard in his underwear. His house was completely ransacked. They dumped out every drawer, dumped out every container (including flour, suger, oil, every container) onto the floor. Every switch plate was removed from every wall. Every duct was opened. The plumbing was opened. Every nook and every cranny of his house was taken apart and searched.
During the search they found approx. a dozen pain pills which did not have a perscription.
My friend was taken to jail.
He had to make bail and get a criminal attorney.
Since he was charged with a felony, he lost his job pending the outcome of the trial.
Since he didn't have the money to defend himself (legal fees) he pled guilty to possession of narcotics and was released on parole. He is now a convicted felon. He can't vote, he can't own a gun. And, there are very few jobs he can get.

This is a lot closer to what is really going to happen with ATF than them going in and giving a fine.
You are ruining these people's lives.
I know your feelings were hurt when they didn't care what you said, but that isn't any reason to do this.


I notice your signature talks about you questioning the government and all that. You are one of these guys that complains about the government until you want their services, then you step right up expecting them to do your bidding.
It doesn't work that way.
Once the genie is out of the bottle, you have no control over it.
You may have only wanted to get back at them for not listening to your expertise the other day, but a lot more than that will happen. And you will have nothing to say about it.

Please, I know that men don't like to back down. There has been some bumping of chests and marking of territories.
You don't have to say another thing about this on this board. You can tell us whatever you want to. You don't need to back down. I will tell you right now that you win. I will even tell you are 100% right if that is what you need to save face. But please, don't do this. If you have any concept of the Golden Rule or any decency please don't do this.

 

[Cacique500]

I would bring it up with the owner only and leave the ATF out of it.

I purchased a Colt Officers model online and when I was function testing it I discovered that the hammer fell when the safety was snicked off. Fortunately the gun was unloaded, safe direction, etc...but had I taken it to the range (or loaded it in the house) I could've had a very nasty and potentially dangerous situation. Turns out the guy I bought it from was an armchair gunsmith and 'forgot' to mention he had 'worked on it a little'.

We're all pretty saavy when it comes to firearms - my concern is that the someone buying the rifle is *not* as saavy as your average THR'er...could be a very dangerous situation.

Not out to save the world but I think in this case it's worth a few minutes of your time to take it up with owner.

 

[ingram]

You are so naive and ignorant on this subject that it is truely scary. I wish, really and truely wish you understood what you are talking about. I feel at a loss because words cannot express how foolish you are. Your arrogance is incredible. People are going to pay a HUGE price for your arrogance and you will go along totally ignorant of the real situation. You will pat yourself on the back because of your arrogance

Yes, this indeed helps solve the problem, kudos to you.

Bad, unsafe gun sellers are not any friend of 2A defenders. They're no different than people who sell beer to kids and get the liquor laws tightened as a result, punishing the lawful sellers. And defending them, rather than having them knocked into line, only hurts the good ones in the long run.

Very true. The ATF doesn't need to get involved but something should be done about the gun. If you talk to the owner about it and he blows you off, I can give a rat's ass what happens to his business after that, he needs to take responsibility. Talk to the owner first chance you get. Contemplating a call to the ATF before you've talked to the owner seems unnecessary.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

It's not your problem.
But, to make yourself feel better, talk to the owner about the weapon. And, while you're talking to him, ask him if it's OK with the BATFE&NinjaMasks for a dealer to sell a weapon that's malfunctioning.
After that, do what you think is right.
He's sowing his own karma, so let him reap the benefits.

 

[Joey2]

How about this for a senerio; The SKS is a trap to see who buys it by the BATF. If you buy it to make it semi-auto you are placing yourself out on a limb that can be sawed off.

Try explaining to the BATF that you were doing a community service to the public by making the SKS legal.

 

[repsychler]

444, I'm a little confused. You say that the ATF raided people with broken guns "thousands of times" yet the only example you give is a tale involving Russian brides and pills, and absolutely no guns or ATF agents.
Can you cite 10 cases (out of the "thousands") of the ATF violently raiding someone with a malfunctioning gun?

 

[Kramer Krazy]

Wow......I am so surprised that some of you know all of my motivations behind posting this thread in the first place. Some of you have given me motives that never crossed my mind. As for some of these overly creative thoughts on my motives, you should write a book because you have quite an imagination......

Why did I post this here? Easy, I know that the gun is not functioning the way it is intended/designed and I am a bit concerned about an unsuspecting buyer getting it and not checking its function before loading it. I am no expert, but I have a good idea how to tell whether a firearm is functioning correctly or not, and owning two SKSs, I am a little familiar with them. As for a firearm going into FA, well.....I'll plead the 5th on this one.......

Why involve the BAFT? I wrote that poll option when I probably should have worded it as "local authorities or the BATF". Sure, I can't make anyone do anything they don't want to, but selling a firearm like this, without stating that it is malfunctioning, just isn't the right thing to do nor is it of THR. I wrote the original thread asking people here.....people with more experience in such situations......for their opinions before I opted to do anything about it.

End result, to date.......I never went back to the store on Saturday and haven't done a follow-up. I have no intentions of buying the gun. My State Trooper friend has not gotten back with me on his opinion of the situation, and absolutely no one on this green earth, other than myself and my wife, has any idea where this shop is (and I consider "local" to be within a two hour drive...you go ahead and try to guess which shop it is).

Now, for some of you that think I'm out to destroy a person's livelyhood, take away more rights from gun owners, and want to brag about how great of a person I am and how knowledgeable I am......go back to your bomb shelter, eat your MREs, and have a nice day. I just wanted some opinions on whether I should pursue this any further or drop it. Next thing you know, you're going to make me out to burning the Constitution and voting Rosie Odonell as President.

 

[444]

Thank you.

One thing you might also want to think about.
If you went out today to drive to work and your car stereo didn't work, would you call the FCC ?
What about if your TV presented a dangerous condition where someone might get electrocuted, would you call the FCC ?

If the people on this thread are interested in a safety issue then why would you call ATF ? Where did you get the idea that they come out and inspect used guns for safety issues ? The ONLY reason to call them would be to turn them in for a criminal activity. ATF is a law enforcement agency. As far as your local police ? Firearms law is a federal matter. Broken or malfunctioning used guns arn't a law enforcement matter at all.

repsychler, I can understand your confusion. You must have missed the first sentence of that story where I said "Let me give you a sort of related example. This wasn't the ATF, but the result will be the same." You must have also missed my other post where I had already cited two of the biggest: Ruby Ridge and Waco. Both events involved the ATF attempting to enforce the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA) which is the same law being discussed here in this thread. I also cited an article in this month's SWAT magazine: May 2006 issue (should be on your local newstand) page 32 "Boot the BATFE ?" by Claire Wolfe. It is obvious that many people on this thread have not heard of the many, many cases of ATF abuses that have been going on for decades so it is good that you ask. I am not going to cite any more cases, they are easy enough to learn about. If you are a member of the NRA, the magazines they publish (American Rifleman, and First Freedom) deal with this issue in pretty much every issue for the last 20-30 years. Those sources should get you started. I hope you show enough interest to do a little research on the matter. This is essential to understanding what we are up against in the fight to keep our guns.
I am truely amazed that there are some gun owners who are interested enough in guns to get on this board, who also have no problem dispensing advice, who have no idea of things like the ATF.

Here is a case that was recently being discussed quite heavily in the on-line gun forums. It is NOT a case of kicking in doors, but it might give you an idea of the type of people we are dealing with. http://www.nraila.org/CurrentLegislation/Read.aspx?ID=1956

Here is another case that is similar to the example I posted earlier that was questioned because the LE agency wasn't ATF: This one is the ATF. This guy is a police officer who bought a gun as a gift to a woman. He was accused by ATF as making a straw purchase. As you see, his life was basically runied. http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200603\NAT20060329a.html "After he was processed as a federal prisoner, Lara was released on his own recognizance, but now was unemployed and the recipient of intense media scrutiny, awaiting his day in court."I lost over $216,000 in saving and earnings. I had to refinance my home to help pay the bills and the attorney's fees," Lara recalled. "Three months after my arrest, my case went to trial. At the end of the trial, the jury deliberated less than one hour before finding me innocent of the charges."Lara would wait two more months for his badge to be returned to him. But the ATF prosecution did not end when he resumed his police career."On my first day back to work I was given a 40-hour suspension without pay for 'criminal activity' because I had been indicted," Lara continued. "My professional career is shot. It's now been three years after the event and I am still a patrol lieutenant. It was made clear to me when I returned to work that I would never see any advancement."

Again, this stuff is real easy to find. Do a search.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

perfect analogy

If you went out today to drive to work
and your car stereo didn't work,
would you call the FCC ?

The 1934 National Firearms Act is not regulatory law:
read the popular title: "Gangster Weapons Act." It is
criminal law and people fingered and arrested as
violators are federal, criminal felons.

Calling ATF over a broken gun in a pawn shop would
be like calling the FBI over a broken windshield wiper
in a car lot: unnecessary overkill.

The pawn shop needs to be told the gun is broke
or badly worn in its fire control safety, ,
it is dangerous, if it misfires on a purchaser they
could be called held accountable in court.

Dang. Perspective. Porportion.

 

[El Barto]

Try to see both sides:

You go into “Ray’s Pawn” and see what you believe is an unsafe firearm and doing what you feel is best, bring it to the attention to the person watching the store. But she appears to not care. You want to ensure that an unsafe rifle is not sold so you want to call the Gov’t. Now the Gov’t SHOULD be there to help, but as with most LE agencies, your call will be a “complaint” and will open a file on this small business. The Gov’t says, “Hmm, Ray’s is selling illegal assault rifles. Let’s see what else they have been doing over the last 10 years”. This will open them to more scrutiny and I am sure that more violations will be found. If you look hard enough, you will find that no one is 100% legal, 100% of the time. And remember, pawn shops have the stigma of being on the fringe of law abiding anyway. This is the kind of hassle that will make store owners rethink having a business.

Other view: Mr. and Mrs. Ray get a little hungry one day so they have daughter Ray watch the counter while they go to McBurger. Daughter knows nothing about guns. Her expertise is in used jewelry. Mr. Customer comes in the store and after browsing quietly asks to see a gun. Daughter is cautious because pawn shops tend to attract unsavory characters and she hasn’t made up her mind about this gentleman yet. After playing around with the gun, Mr. Customer tells Daughter that she is selling is illegal and needs to get fixed. She doesn’t know what this guy is talking about but she will probably mention it to Mom and Pop. After all, she doesn’t know this guy or can be sure what qualifications this guy has and feels lucky that he didn’t load the thing and shove it in her face.

Mr. Customer comes in another time and pretty much insists that Mrs. Ray take the gun off the shelf. Is he buying it? No, he wants them to take it off because it might be dangerous. Mrs. Ray may feel a little threatened because this guy came in earlier and made a fuss and now he is back making a bigger fuss. All she hears is “Hi, you are selling an illegal gun and you need to put it in the back. If you don’t it will kill little kids”.

What should have happened: You notice what you think is the malfunction. You let Daughter know that there might be a problem. She doesn’t care so you go back and speak to Mrs. Ray. You explain to her that you have owned several SKS rifles and are familiar with how they work and you think that one of their’s may be broken. You tell her that you enjoy coming in to Ray’s and wouldn’t like it if they got sued because some idiot bought the gun and didn’t notice the problem until he killed his wife. You say “I would like to help, so here is the card to my favorite gunsmith and he will check it out for free”. Or you buy the gun, fix it, clean it up and resell it for a profit.

Should you call the Gov’t?

Yes, if you want to make the “Ray’s” lives hard and give the Gov’t a reason to keep their tactical units fully funded. The anti’s love to read how the local Swat team raided a store and got another assault rifle off the streets and how easy it would have been for any 18 yr old kid to buy the evil thing.

No, if you want to be a decent human being. Don’t just point out the problem, help with the solution.

 

[444]

"Calling ATF over a broken gun in a pawn shop would
be like calling the FBI over a broken windshield wiper
in a car lot: unnecessary overkill."

I am not real good with words but this is pretty much what I have been trying to get across now for the last several days.
Calling ATF for anything is IMO the same thing as saying, "If my baby crys again, I am throwing it in a wood chipper".
That is the magnitude of how excessive this is.
They don't just come and give you a ticket for having a broken used gun.

 

[repsychler]

444:

Once again you are long on typing and short on proof. I'm not trying to apologize for anything the ATF has done with respect to Waco, Ruby Ridge or any other example you've cited. But the simple fact is you have not been able to produce a single example (out of an alleged "thousands") of the ATF violently raiding someone over a malfunctioning gun.

Oh, and this isn't about calling the FCC because your radio is broken. It's about calling the FCC because Radio Shack is knowlingly selling radios that violate FCC regs.

I agree calling the ATF is overkill, but doing nothing might put the kill in underkill.

 

[chas_martel]

I vote other.
The is a poorly worded poll, it presumes that you should "do something".

And I have no doubt whatsoever why we are losing. Here we are on a board
where most members "claim" to value liberty, yet none would
recognize liberty if it hit them upside the head.

And I am not even talking about the MG aspect of the question. That is
not the important part of this thread.