NICS Rant...

[12many]

I don't have enough call ins to form an accurate opinion, but on my last call, maybe one year ago for a bolt action 223 rifle, the wait was about 45 min to 1 hour. It was bad enough that I had to leave the store and then come back since I had family stuff to do. There were others waiting too. That was the last gun I bought - not saying that is why, but I don't really like sitting or standing there for that long and then having to come back later. It was not a denial, the gun shop was on hold on the phone.

It was a FFL transfer in, but other buyers were waiting behind me. If it was a in store purchase, I probably would have left and not bought it at that time (unless it was a unique gun, like having good wood or hard to find). I don't pay for the gun until I clear background check.

I have never had the check be 'instant', nor has anyone. There is the paperwork to fill out, then the call in, and finalize the paper work. For me, it has ranged from usually 10 minutes to an hour and 10 minutes. I work during the week so I usually shop on the weekends so at some busy gun shops, there is a line for the background check that also adds to the wait, and at ties up shop employees ($) on the phone. IMO, having the check is good, but it needs to be kept efficient and fast.

 

[JVaughn]

Quote:
Skribs ..... I don't understand why we don't just have a system where if someone isn't trustworthy enough to have guns, they're in prison.
Because someone who "isn't trustworthy" isn't necessarily a criminal.
Not all of the criteria that makes a buyer prohibited have noting to do with crime.

Dog town, who's side are you on anyhow?

Are we not debating the speed at which our rights are violated by the government? I don't want to wait 1 second for the king to authorize my use of my rights. Any check, regardless of speed, is unconstitutional and offensive.

Skribs, +1. Yes, if you can't buy you should be behind bars.

 

[dogtown tom]

JVaughn Dog town, who's side are you on anyhow?

You confuse knowledge of the NICS and Brady law with picking a side.
That's just plain dumb fella.
I'm a gun dealer. I darn well better understand those laws, regulations and processes because if I don't I face loss of my FFL, fines or imprisonment.

I would be delighted if all gun laws were to disappear tomorrow.....but they won't. When I applied for my FFL it was with the understanding that I would abide by all local, state and Federal laws. I take that seriously.

And BTW........if you think the Federal government, Congress, you local school board, your county sheriff are the OTHER SIDE....I pity you. They work for us.

Are we not debating the speed at which our rights are violated by the government?

No, its a thread about reality. Until the USSC rules the Brady law unconstitutional were stuck with it. You can sit there and whine about "sides" and being "violated" all day long and what did you accomplish?

I don't want to wait 1 second for the king to authorize my use of my rights. Any check, regardless of speed, is unconstitutional and offensive.

Then you likely won't be buying any guns from a licensed dealer then will you?

 

[mgkdrgn]

Have you EVER introduced any of your Delays to the VAF program, where they can get a UPIN and reduce / eliminate those delays in the future?

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/appeals/nics_vaf_brochure_eng.pdf

Chances are they get DELAY all the time, and would look well upon the gunstore that helped them put that to an end.

Did you give your Deny the information they needed to appeal their denial and "set their record straight".

As a small gunshop owner, I find it more and more frustrating that a NICS background check goes to delay

 

[deadin]

Yes, if you can't buy you should be behind bars.

I know this is an interesting "sound byte", but have you ever really thought about just what it would take to implement it?

For starters our entire system of jurisprudence would need to be re-written.
Then we would need to build and staff a whole lot more prisons (or gulags).

 

[roadchoad]

Yes, if you can't buy you should be behind bars.

:facepalm. By that logic, a denial is a trip to jail. Hope there are no felons that happen to have the same name as you!

 

[buck460XVR]

You confuse knowledge of the NICS and Brady law with picking a side.
That's just plain dumb fella.
I'm a gun dealer. I darn well better understand those laws, regulations and processes because if I don't I face loss of my FFL, fines or imprisonment.

I would be delighted if all gun laws were to disappear tomorrow.....but they won't. When I applied for my FFL it was with the understanding that I would abide by all local, state and Federal laws. I take that seriously.

And BTW........if you think the Federal government, Congress, you local school board, your county sheriff are the OTHER SIDE....I pity you. They work for us.



No, its a thread about reality. Until the USSC rules the Brady law unconstitutional were stuck with it. You can sit there and whine about "sides" and being "violated" all day long and what did you accomplish?

Best post in the whole thread!

IMHO, The whole thought behind the original post in this thread is this......

I probably just lost that sale because it was an impulse purchase.

Thing is, unless it's something the OP is doing incorrectly or it's just the type of customer base he has, every other gun shop owner should have the same percentage of denials....thus losing the same amount of impulse purchases that go to another dealer.......some that even go the OP. IOWs, those denials give him sales he probably wouldn't have had otherwise.


Just sayin'........

 

[Joshua M.]

Ok, so this guy is still on "delay". I know the limit is 3 days before I can proceed if I don't recieve an answer, but, really is 3 days necessary? Are they just waiting for him to screw up, cause surely they are reviewing him for 3 days straight.

 

[newfalguy101]

My longest delay was over a week before getting the call that the ( no now longer a) buyer was good to go with a proceed.

The initial call was at a gunshow, nearly 100 miles from home, and away from the potential buyer.........

You should have been given a "you can transfer date" during the initial call, sooooooooo do the transfer and be done with it, and give the buyer the UPIN info

 

[Joea132]

I went to three different gun stores this week and 2/3 said they couldn't sell guns because the state's system was down. One of them I drove 40 minutes to pick a gun up that came in last week. One of the gun stores said they are starting to think the state is just screwing with them. Meanwhile my rifle sits in their safe and I have to find a day to get there again to maybe get it or maybe not.

 

[JFtheGR8]

I got the delay from the NICS this past week on the transfer of a lower receiver. The FFL didn't give me a proceed by date but I told him they should only have three business days to respond. I know that's totally up to him if he wants to wait for an official ok to proceed but if he does make me wait I won't use him anymore. I believe it's just a load of BS since I even provided my social security number on the form. They could not have mixed me up with anyone of the same name etc... Just doing it to hassle me because I either belong to the NRA, GOA, THR or a member of the First United Methodist Church. You know, those so called radical organizations according to the Obama administration. I also write letters to my congressmen about 2A issues even though one of them is totally anti gun. Just another tactic being used against freedom loving Americans.

 

[Joshua M.]

Well Thursday is the 3rd business day, and if I don't get a response by then, you can bet your a$$ I'll try to sell it to the guy. I'll be sure to tell him though that if it does comeback later as denied, it's up to the ATF to come get it...

 

[JFtheGR8]

I'm picking my lower up tonight unless a denial comes through in the next couple of hours. I cannot imagine how or why that would happen though.

 

[CoalTrain49]

NICS isn't an "instant" background check. A delay means NICS has to do more research. If it can't make a determination to proceed or deny instantly then it isn't instant. NICS can't call balls and strikes, it's that simple.

Out of the last 8 purchases I've made 2 were instant. The rest were delayed. I feel sorry for dealers who have to put up with that. I'm not the kind of guy who is going to let my dealer hold 2K of my money while the gov't decides if I can transfer a firearm. As a matter of fact my conditions of purchase are "if I get a proceed" I will buy it, if not, then no sale. In nearly all business it's goods or service up front then payment. Why should a dealer think it should be any different?

Dealers need to know NICS is causing the eventual lose of a sale. I'm not saying it's the dealers fault but input to the ATF might be appropriate. Of course there are those dealers that would tell you the rules are wonderful/great and if you want to play you need to ante up, but I'm not playing poker here. The dealer doesn't need to hold my money, I have a bank for that.

 

[JFtheGR8]

My problem is transfers. Many people buy online then have their firearm shipped to an FFL. Like I said previously, I won't use an FFL who won't proceed with the transfer after the three business days elapse and no response has been given by the NICS.

 

[dogtown tom]

CoalTrain49 NICS isn't an "instant" background check.

Yes, it is. Just because you don't get the response you want doesn't mean its not instant. The dealer knows instantly whether you get to go home with a gun or not.

If it can't make a determination to proceed or deny instantly then it isn't instant....

Well, that's what it DOES instantly..........it either tells the dealer Proceed, Delayed or Denied. I'm sure the anti gunners would love an immediate either/or option.....it would mean those transactions that return possible prohibiting factors would get a Deny instead of a Delay. (and undoubtedly you would be posting a rant that night about your unconstitutional denial by the evil FBI NICS)

.......As a matter of fact my conditions of purchase are "if I get a proceed" I will buy it, if not, then no sale....

I'm pretty darn sure if you don't get a proceed the dealer isn't going to say take it anyway.

Dealers need to know NICS is causing the eventual lose of a sale.

We had no idea until now! Dang, I knew sumpin was up.

I'm not saying it's the dealers fault but input to the ATF might be appropriate.

Neither dealers not the ATF has anything to do with the FBI NICS.

Of course there are those dealers that would tell you the rules are wonderful/great and if you want to play you need to ante up, but I'm not playing poker here. The dealer doesn't need to hold my money, I have a bank for that.

No federal law or ATF regulation requires you to buy guns from a licensed dealer. If you don't like the rules, then get off the field and start your own game.

 

[CoalTrain49]

And BTW........if you think the Federal government, Congress, you local school board, your county sheriff are the OTHER SIDE....I pity you. They work for us.

The ATF/FBI doesn't work for me DT. I don't sign their paycheck. They work for the DOJ and the adm. If they did many of them would be looking at locating some meaningful employment, maybe in the entertainment business like the NFL. Save your pity for someone who needs it.

 

[Snyper]

I have never had the check be 'instant', nor has anyone.

I worked in a gun shop for six years, and I've seen literally hundreds of checks completed in under a minute, even counting the time it took to relay the information to them.

I've seen others that took hours, but that was not the norm at all.

If you have never had an "instant" result, I'd suspect someone else with your name has a criminal record and that means a more thorough data search is required

 

[Joshua M.]

I don't agree with charging anything until the transfer takes place. If someone has me order something in, I don't ask for anything down, if it's something I think will sell. So far, the only time I have required any money before a transfer took place was for a Barrett .50BMG...I just couldn't grasp sitting on a $5K rifle while trying to get started.

 

[dogtown tom]

CoalTrain49

Quote:
And BTW........if you think the Federal government, Congress, you local school board, your county sheriff are the OTHER SIDE....I pity you. They work for us.

The ATF/FBI doesn't work for me DT. I don't sign their paycheck. They work for the DOJ and the adm. If they did many of them would be looking at locating some meaningful employment, maybe in the entertainment business like the NFL. Save your pity for someone who needs it.

I didn't say they work for you....I said they work for us.
I pity anyone who doesn't understand how a representative democracy works.

 

[newfalguy101]

I don't agree with charging anything until the transfer takes place. If someone has me order something in, I don't ask for anything down, if it's something I think will sell. So far, the only time I have required any money before a transfer took place was for a Barrett .50BMG...I just couldn't grasp sitting on a $5K rifle while trying to get started.

I have a different business model, I almost always require the wholesale cost of the gun upfront on orders ( no, I don't tell the its the wholesale cost, I just give them a price ) and collect the balance when they pick it up. The ONLY exception has been for ONE GOOD repeat customer.

I also require the buyer have a purchase permit for orders.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Yes, it is. Just because you don't get the response you want doesn't mean its not instant. The dealer knows instantly whether you get to go home with a gun or not.

This thread isn't about what the dealer or the FBI knows or doesn't know. It's about a potential sale.

Potential buyer walks in with money, sees a firearm he likes and wants to buy. Dealer says sale is conditional on NICS. Buyer says I have already had a BC because I'm carrying a CWP, as a matter of fact I'm carrying a concealed pistol right now. Dealer says it doesn't matter cause I'm going to run a NICS on you anyway and if you want this gun you're going to have to give me some money and wait until the FBI clears you.

Well I'll be darned. Here I am a Vietnam vet, held a security clearance both US and foriegn military, a fed. tax payer for 50 years, held the same gov't job for 30 years, Had the same address for 20 years, and never been convicted of any crime. Now some dealer wants a conditional sale. That's instant alright, an instant insult to me and a whole bunch of folks.

Well, that's what it DOES instantly..........it either tells the dealer Proceed, Delayed or Denied. I'm sure the anti gunners would love an immediate either/or option.....it would mean those transactions that return possible prohibiting factors would get a Deny instead of a Delay. (and undoubtedly you would be posting a rant that night about your unconstitutional denial by the evil FBI NICS)

Why would I be denied? That would only mean that NICS doesn't work. There is only one me. As far as I know I haven't been cloned. There is only one person living at my address with my name and SSN. Maybe someone stole my identity but so far they haven't cleaned out my bank account.

I'm pretty darn sure if you don't get a proceed the dealer isn't going to say take it anyway.

Correct. That's the topic of this thread. No sale.

We had no idea until now! Dang, I knew sumpin was up.

So you're OK with that?

Neither dealers not the ATF has anything to do with the FBI NICS.

OK, it's the FBI database that's the problem. I'm not blaming dealers, I already said that.

No federal law or ATF regulation requires you to buy guns from a licensed dealer. If you don't like the rules, then get off the field and start your own game.

That's just exactly what happened in 1776. The folks that thought British rule was just fine ended up in Canada. I believe they were called Loyalists. God save the Queen.

 

[dogtown tom]

CoalTrain49

Quote:
Yes, it is. Just because you don't get the response you want doesn't mean its not instant. The dealer knows instantly whether you get to go home with a gun or not.

This thread isn't about what the dealer or the FBI knows or doesn't know. It's about a potential sale.

Potential buyer walks in with money, sees a firearm he likes and wants to buy. Dealer says sale is conditional on NICS. Buyer says I have already had a BC because I'm carrying a CWP, as a matter of fact I'm carrying a concealed pistol right now. Dealer says it doesn't matter cause I'm going to run a NICS on you anyway and if you want this gun you're going to have to give me some money and wait until the FBI clears you.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with NICS......that's a problem with your dealer. If you live in a state where a firearm permit is an exemption to NICS and the dealer refuses to honor it.......either let him run a NICS or WALK OUT. If you don't like a dealers policies.....aint nobody making you buy there are they?

Well I'll be darned. Here I am a Vietnam vet, held a security clearance both US and foriegn military, a fed. tax payer for 50 years, held the same gov't job for 30 years, Had the same address for 20 years, and never been convicted of any crime. Now some dealer wants a conditional sale. That's instant alright, an instant insult to me and a whole bunch of folks.

Boo freaking hoo...........blame the dealer. Not the FBI NICS.
And FYI there are a few Vietnam vets, folks who have held a security clearance, a couple of taxpayers, etc .............that are currently prohibited persons. The Brady law requires CURRENT information on the buyer. Not their record from 1970. This is why not all CHL/CWP/CCP/etc meet the standard to serve as an exemption. "Lifetime" permits typically do not because the permit must undergo a background check every five years.

Quote:
Well, that's what it DOES instantly..........it either tells the dealer Proceed, Delayed or Denied. I'm sure the anti gunners would love an immediate either/or option.....it would mean those transactions that return possible prohibiting factors would get a Deny instead of a Delay. (and undoubtedly you would be posting a rant that night about your unconstitutional denial by the evil FBI NICS)

Why would I be denied? That would only mean that NICS doesn't work.

You might be denied because someone with a similar name and other descriptors IS A prohibited person. This is why NICS has an appeal process.

In all seven of my denied transactions the buyer had the same or very similar name of a prohibited person or the customer had an unresolved disposition on a criminal charge.

That means in all seven of my cases FBI NICS worked EXACTLY as designed.

There is only one me. As far as I know I haven't been cloned. There is only one person living at my address with my name and SSN. Maybe someone stole my identity but so far they haven't cleaned out my bank account.

The more you write about your supposed problems with NICS, the more you show how little you understand what goes in a background check.
1. While you may think "there is only one me", there may be dozens of people with the same or similar names......and any one of them could be a prohibited person. If your name is "Oscar Mayer Weiner" the NICS will check that name as well as other spellings Oscor, Oskor, Oskar, Osker.... Meyer, Meier, Mayor, Miyer....Winner, Whiner, Winer, etc......if the initial check has multiple records returned, the NICS customer service rep forwards the call to an FBI Legal Documents Examiner. The NICS Examiner will often be able to resolve the check immediately, but sometimes the information needed is not in a Federal database but a state database. That's why they have three business days beginning the next business day to deny the transfer......after the third business day the Brady Law does not prohibit the dealer from transferring the firearm.
2. Your address isn't given to FBI NICS, so that is again, immaterial.
3. A SSN by itself does not prevent multiple record returns.

Quote:
I'm pretty darn sure if you don't get a proceed the dealer isn't going to say take it anyway.

Correct. That's the topic of this thread. No sale.

You missed the point. Again.

Quote:
We had no idea until now! Dang, I knew sumpin was up.

So you're OK with that?

No, but its hysterically funny when someone points out that a dealer misses a sale when the buyer gets denied.

Quote:
No federal law or ATF regulation requires you to buy guns from a licensed dealer. If you don't like the rules, then get off the field and start your own game.

That's just exactly what happened in 1776. The folks that thought British rule was just fine ended up in Canada. I believe they were called Loyalists. God save the Queen.

Your analogy would make sense if the USA was still under the rule of a monarch...........but we ain't. No matter what your feelings about Obama....he isn't a king, and he can't do whatever he wants.

 

[tarosean]

I don't want to wait 1 second for the king to authorize my use of my rights. Any check, regardless of speed, is unconstitutional and offensive.

Then you likely won't be buying any guns from a licensed dealer then will you?

Dont know about that... I guarantee I can buy a gun from you without a NICS check.

 

[Theohazard]

With the new washinton I594 we have to hold all delayed guns for 10days or until further notice...

No, that's not true at all. I-594 doesn't affect NICS delays, instead it increased the handgun waiting period for non-CPL holders to 10 business days.

But if a store is calling NICS and gets a delay, that already means the customer has a CPL (or is buying a "long gun" or "other"), so the transaction doesn't involve a state 10-day waiting period or a background check done by the local police.

So even with I-594, nothing has changed in WA regarding NICS delays: It's still a maximum of 3 business days, or earlier if NICS contacts the store with a "proceed".