No such thing as overkill!!!!!!!!

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Well, I like my .308 and even my .257. The 7 mag sits waiting on the day I might get to go shoot a Nilgai or something. It's there, but I really don't need it. I was young and dumb and WANTED it at the time. Well, ain't much around here that justifies that boomer. Like I say, I'm going to back stroke to a muzzle loader, anyway. It's just something that I've yet to do, shoot game with a muzzle loader. I like the thumper concept and I'm into front loaders, have been for a long time, just never hunted much with one. But, a 385 grain 50 cal pill loaping along at about 1400 fps will kill game quite dead and I should be able to eat right up to the hole. That's not really why I'm going to use it, just sayin'. I'm going to hunt with it because I just think it's a cool gun and I like front loading.

Ah, one thing about front loaders, back in the day there were few caliber arguments. If you wanted more horsepower, you just shot a bigger ball. .31s were for squirrels and bigger game were simply taken with something that started with a 5...or maybe a 6 or 7. :D
 
I don't think it's an overkill issue. It's when the guy that uses a .338 tells you that your .243 isn't enough, that drives me crazy.

Just like the post about the .45acp for deer. I've seen several (5) deer fall to the .45 and most in that post are saying its wimpy and not enough bullet. It ticks me off. Those deer were just as dead as any other.
 
Well, what ticks ME off is people that think a .45ACP is the handgun equivalent to the .458 Win Mag. :rolleyes: I really don't get "ticked off". I just think it's irresponsible to be UNDERgunned. If you "blow the game in half", well, at least it didn't have to suffer much. More power adds room for slight error. With a less than optimum caliber, you'd better put that bullet where it'll work. If you're a little off, you'd better be ready to blood trail a ways. I've had the experience of blood trailing a wounded hog. Man, that's exciting, but I don't have any catastrophic health care at the present time.
 
I guess I don't really understand the term, "overkill", at least not as far as caliber. My most powerful hunting rifle has been the 30-06 and I have made many good one shot kills with it. I never felt the need for the really large, higher speed cartridges but do have some experiences with larger bullets. I have had excellent results of quick kills with the slow large bullets in .44 Mag, 240 gr JFP (carbine) and 45-70 with 300 gr JFN Hornadys. The big bullets have put down a lot of hogs and deer with minimal meat damage.

In at least 2 cases I have killed or seen killed a deer and a boar with high speed small bullets. One incident was when a friend and I were hunting hogs and a 400 lb. boar charged us from about 100 yards. My friend was using a 7MM Rem Mag with 130 gr bullets and he shot that boar dead center in the boiler works. He waited long enough to take the shot that I was about to shoot even though it was his turn. It was getting close and traveling really fast. The forward momentum carried the boar almost to our feet even though it was dead the moment it was hit. The 7 MM was very effective in making the kill but all of the meat was badly blood shot. Another time I was hunting coyotes that had been moving in too close to the house at night and were a danger to pets and livestock. I was using a .243 loaded with Hornady 60 gr HP at 3800+ FPS, very effective on coyotes and other varmits. I ran across a small buck at about 30 yds that had no idea I there. I thought about that 60 gr HP at that velocity and was worried it would blow up on the surface and I would have a wounded deer to track. I finally decided to make a head shot so as to not damage any meat and make a quick kill. The deer was moving slowly away from me and I aimed at the base of the skull. Just as I pulled the trigger he alerted and up came the head. That casused the bullet to hit him well down in the neck and blew out a big chunk of spine. He dropped like a rock but the 60 gr. HP did a LOT of damage and had I shot him anywhere in the body, heart/lungs there would not have been much useable meat left and I well might have been in for a long track.

I have effectively used many calibers for hunting and seen many people make good kills with small calibers but these two incidents with small fast bullets and my experience with the slow larger bullets have caused me to pretty much adopt the big ones for my hunting. My hunting range is seldom greater than about 100 yds and if I think a might need a little more distance I take the 30-06. Even though I don't have experience with the .338, .375, etc I tend to agree that the bigger bullet is probably going to destroy less meat in the long run. Just IMO.
 
Had anyone tried 12 ga sabots from Remington from riffled barrel of the shotgun?
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I've killed several, with both 520 gr copper solids & 385 gr core-lokt ultras, out of a 12 ga fully rifled 20" bbl.
Neither made any more or less of a "mess" than most of the foster type slugs that we all used when I started hunting.
The ones that I've hit 6" or so forward of where aiming, always have some lost meat.

It really does come down to: A; bullet placement, and B; bullet selection.
 
My great Aunt took a 12 point buck with a 10/22, made the mistake of asking if she didn't want a bigger gun, she replied no, then I got an lecture about marksmanship, seem my 80yo great aunt thinks a .22 is fine for hunting, don't really need anything bigger and it doesn't wear you out.

BTW, that 12 point, was DRT with one shot, didn't even run.
 
Back when I was a teenaged or "twenty-something" hunter, I knew everything there was to know about hunting, calibers and shot placement. Now I'm sixty-something and must have forgotten a lot because I rarely judge people or think that they're wrong as long as what they do is safe, respectful and good for Mother Nature. A poor shot with any rifle will ruin lots of meat during their hunting years. Some don't care while others feel bad. I like to "bring enough gun". For deer, I shoot .30-30, .270, .30-06, .300 Win Mag & 12 gauge slugs because that's what I own and am decently good with. Our state just ruled it legal to use "any .22 caliber or larger centerfire rifle/ammo on deer". I don't believe in "under-kill" because I respect wildlife too much. I've been on the verge of tears after finding out that my shot went errant and only wounded an animal. Some have lived overnight before I've found them and dispatched them. I had a miserable night's "sleep" waiting for 1st light. Everyone in my hunting party knows how I feel and NO ONE who hunts with me will every hunt deer (& some bucks around here get to 200+ lbs.) with a .223 Rem or .22-250 powered caliber. I allow anything .243 or larger. ***(This has to do with the "Respectful" statement.)** It's my land, my tax payments, my morgage pymts, my sweat & I make the rules.
 
My experience dovetails with H&Hhunter's. (As usual.)

I have shot whitetail sized game with calibers up to .505 Gibbs. They're actually pretty unimpressive. The bullets for such rifles are almost universally designed for dangerous game. In smaller animals they essentially act like solids. They work, but you don't get the "bang-flops" they way you can with more appropriate calibers. The most impressive "bang-flop" I ever saw came as the result of a .257 Bob. So I guess one can technically be overgunned from a ballistics standpoint.

But I believe the general point of the "overgunned" comments has to do with recoil. I have witnessed a great many folks "overgunned" in the sense that they close their eyes and yank the trigger. If a .300 Magnum (or whatever) is more than really necessary, and the shooter can't handle it effectively (I know there aren't any THR members so sissified that they can't handle the .577 Nitro, so I'm referring only to "that other guy";-) then maybe that .257 Bob is a better choice for him.

Assuming he can take the ribbing from the he-men in the hunting camp...
 
"Just enough gun"

I started enjoying fishing a lot when I switched to a 2 pound ultralight rig, which requires a bit more finesse than 6 pound test. Same with hunting. I'm thinkin' of trading in the .30-06 for a .25-06 or .257 Roberts.

Then there's the issue---in NYS especially---about safety. A little 2-year old got killed last year right inside the family's house trailer because a careless hunter wasn't "sure of his target and what's beyond." He's serving jail time, and folks who want our county to be "shotgun only" are becoming more and more vocal. It's probably just a matter of time before rifles are banned for hunting in Orange County New York. I believe he was using a .308, which the newspaper described as a "high powered rifle." I wonder what the outcome would have been had he been using a .30-30. In a populated area like this, many hunters argue for using "just enough gun."
 
some of them are actually women!
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Really? The few female hunters with whom I have chatted have all been caliber "realists" without exception. They don't seem to understand why anyone would put up with the noise and recoil of a Magnum when the smaller calibers work so well. I've found that it's impossible to make a logical counter-argument...
 
I know a little woman that hunts geese with a 12 gauge 3.5" Mossberg 835 Ultimag shooting T steel in 3.5". That gun will rock your world, but she handles it just fine. Goose hunters around here prefer big guns for a reason. Me, i've gone to 10 gauge for geese.

Recoil is just something to get used to. Not everyone is a wimp, even women. Same woman goes to Colorado most every year after elk. She and her husband shoot .300 win mag. They are really into their front loaders, too. Those kick a might, especially a light one.
 
Please do not think that I am saying women cannot handle recoil. I am saying that the ones with whom I have spoken do not understand why so many men choose to accept recoil that is demonstrably unnecessary. "Why is he getting pounded by that .338 when my 7x57 is putting game down just as fast?" is a difficult question to answer from a purely rational point of view.

By the way, now I am worried that I am a "wimp" because I sometimes choose a rifle of lower recoil than the .300 but of equal effectiveness for the game I am after. I think now I might have to go get a tattoo or maybe a bottle of Enzyte.
 
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By no means does it make someone a whimp to choose a rifle with less recoil. My go to gun is and has always been the .270 win. I hunt deer fairly often with a .243 win. Both are fantastic rounds and very effective. I think the point alot of people are trying to make myself included is to use which ever gun you are comfortable with. I can shoot my .300 win very well and I have every bit of confidence in myself to make a clean shot on game. I don't feel manly because I happen to like the caliber.

I once owed a .270 in a light weight mountain rifle and the sucker kicked like a mule. It was not fun to shoot and you almost cringed to pull the trigger. That rifle quickly went elsewhere. If you cannot shoot the rifle in any caliber of your choosing several times in a short amount of time without pain. You probably should not hunt with that rifle IMHO. I hunt with a single shot rifle and carry no more than three rounds with me to the feild. Its been 9 years since I have ever brought back less than 2 loaded rounds and a cleanly killed game animal. If I didn't come back with that I came home with three loaded rounds. Find a gun that you can shoot and shoot well. Take your time pick your shots. If you wonder about anything at the moment of trigger squeeze you probably should not pull the trigger.
 
"...don't actually own a 338..." Ever shoot one or are you just guessing? The felt recoil and muzzle blast is astounding. Far worse when shooting next to one on a range. No such thing as a .338 Mag FMJ either. FMJ's are illegal for hunting in most places too.
In any case, it's not the power of the cartridge that matters. It's the hunter's shooting skills. Magnums, of any kind, are not required for any game in North America. They're the result of a long, very successful, marketing campaign to lousy shooters who don't practice and think more power makes them better.
"...It was not fun to shoot..." That matters. Well said.
 
It's a subjective observation, but if the internet is any indication, the users of smaller rounds are more likely to bag those who make different choices, than those who use larger calibres.

Hunt how you like, with what you like - as long as you're not causing a disproportionate amount of suffering by using inadequate tools for the job. Just don't think that you make your choice more reasonable by attacking the man who has put in the time and effort to learn (and it's a learned skill) to shoot the bigger calibres.

Overkill?

This is overkill.
300RabbitMediumJPG.jpg
But what difference would it have made had I shot it with a "more appropriate" .22 centrefire.
 
Just don't think that you make your choice more reasonable by attacking the man who has put in the time and effort to learn (and it's a learned skill) to make clean kills without having to use the bigger calibers.
It is just as true said this way!
 
Just don't think that you make your choice more reasonable by attacking the man who has put in the time and effort to learn (and it's a learned skill) to make clean kills without having to use the bigger calibers.
It is just as true said this way!
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Yeah, but it's far less commonly said that way.....

An inappropriate level of response is "overkill" in debate.
 
An inappropriate level of response is "overkill" in debate.
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I Think it is a very appropriate response when it applies. According to FUNK & WANGNALLS STANDARD DESK DICTIONARY copyright 1984 Harper and Row. OVERKILL noun, "The military capacity for destruction far beyond the resources and population of an enemy". ie; using much more than is needed is "overkill". That isn't necessarily a bad thing.
 
According to your quoted definition, "overkill" is correctkly used in a military context that include undesireable outcomes.

Therefore its use in reference to hunters who are generally well aware of the outcome and find nothing wrong with it, is at best wrong and at worst a gratuitous insult.

You object to the less common error, let us hear you objecting to the more common one. Are you fair enough to do that?
 
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