non-firearm options in NY state for self defense?

[jason41987]

hey everyone.. im in pennsylvania, but im pretty close to the NY border and do a lot of business there and dont want to deal with what it would take to get a NY state CCW permit, if even possible for an out of state individual...

so... anyway, i was wondering what the best defense option is for me, maybe some insight into their knife laws.. im not a big fan of folders, and if open-carry is legally safer in that state i would probably prefer that since i dont wear much clothing in the summer

so.. what are my options, if i have any?

 

[P.B.Walsh]

Not entirely sure of the laws there, I have to visit there in the summer, but if you can do it, fake an injury and get a quality cane. I think you can have a non locking folder though.

 

[jason41987]

so far what ive learned is whats definitely legal, and thats a standard folding pocket knife, and a butterfly knife...

whats definitely not legal are switch blades, gravity knives, double edged knives, and those that look sinister, like push daggers and karambit atleast while concealed, possibly unconcealed as well

what im not sure of are the laws around open carry, if there are any specific, and fixed blades

 

[hso]

Where in NY state do you work?

You should read the threads in this forum about canes and chemical sprays.

 

[Owen Sparks]

A knife is no match for a 3' walking cane in most circumstances.

 

[jason41987]

i dont work in new york state, but because the area im at now is so rural, and the closest town with anything more than about 5,000 people is a short drive over the border, so i go there to buy things often, and they tend to have better fishing areas as well...

anyway... daggers, switch blades, ballistic knives, and gravity knives are illegal to possess in any way... so those are definitely out (i dont have any of these anyway, so no big deal)...

push daggers would be impossible to convince a cop or judge isnt a weapon-only type knife, so thats out of the question... karambits would be easier to explain, but still fairly difficult, so... thats iffy

i guess folding pocket knives (butterfly knife included), or a single-edged fixed blade knifes are all OK as long as they can be useful for non-fighting purposes as well, so since i do a lot of fishing, hunting, and general outdoor stuff i could easily make a case for any one of these as a utility knife...

so.. that further concentration does clear some things up, they just dont make ANY mention to open carry at all

 

[jason41987]

owen, walking canes are specifically illegal to possess outside of your home as well

 

[mattmann]

A big dog!


Or this!

Sent from my DROID RAZR

 

[jason41987]

psh, im not taking my dog everywhere she goes.. shes a hound and will follow any new scent she picks up and is about as dangerous as being hit with a pillow

 

[Owen Sparks]

owen, walking canes are specifically illegal to possess outside of your home as well

Nope, they are protected under the Americans with Disabilities Act as medical equipment just like wheel chairs. You can even a cary on cane on a commercial airliner. There have been numberous threads about this including an experiment where a lawyer carried one through 3 different airports twice, comming and going, and no one said anything.

 

[jason41987]

oh.. you meant just a straight up walking cane.... i thought you meant like a cane sword... i dont want to go with a walking cane though.. prefer to keep my hands free...

anyway, heres a piece of the NYS law that confuses me... daggers, dirks, stilettos, razors, or anything knife designed to be used as a weapon and not a tool is only illegal "with the intent to use unlawfully against another".. then later in this page im reading it says "subsequent law PL 265.15(4) dictates that simple possession constitutes presumptive evidence that the possessor intends to use the instrument unlawfully against another. "

that confuses me.. but other than that it seems any single edged knife, folding, butterfly, or fixed blade of any length is legal whether its open or concealed, as long a lawful purpose can be established for the blade...

so that leads me to other questions... since if you flick a folding knife hard enough, you can usually make them open, so a cop could make the case for most folding knives as being gravity knives except for the butterfly knife which has a court-case on the books that rules against it being illegal...

the questions are, can a kabar knife listed as a utility knife on their website and being quite practical and well suited for general utility use be ok to carry in a boot, concealed or otherwise (i wear tall boots)... is it even worth trying to find such a purpose for a karambit, or is that going to be a waste of my time to consider, and is it safe to assume the "presumptive evidence of intent" on daggers make anything double edges out of the question?...

as it stands now im looking at either a kabar in the boot or a butterfly knife in the pocket since it seems a butterfly knife is less likely to give me trouble than a standard folding pocket knife

 

[Carl Levitian]

"owen, walking canes are specifically illegal to possess outside of your home as well"


And just where did you hear that bit of horse hockey, Jason?

It couldn't be any farther from the truth.

 

[jason41987]

carl, probably a good idea to read the entire conversation first

 

[meef]

New York, huh?

Well..... feather dusters for one. I think feather dusters are permissible as long as they are constructed from non-allergenic artificial feathers.

And cream puffs are okay too. As long as they are not more than two days old whereupon they become kinda stale and crusty, so much as to be dangerous.

Nerf bats may be allowed as long as you can prove a sporting use for them. They also will go well with your nerf balls - which are the only kind you are permitted to dangle in the nanny state of New York. Anything with more substance would be considered provocative and potentially brandishing.

Man I wish I lived in New York.

 

[jason41987]

im glad i dont actually live in new york, and frankly i am getting sick of having to cross the state line for most my shopping, doctors, and other reasons... so im strongly considering moving closer to a difference source of these things... but eeh, not much i can do now....

however, its looking more and more like butterfly knife vs kabar utility knife as my options... would any of you guys feel legally safe carrying either of these with the information stated, and which would you prefer?

 

[hso]

Jason,

Do a little reading and you'll find that a reasonable stick and a tad of training will trump a knife. Of course most sticks are more challenging to carry than a knife, but many of us have figured out how to do that comfortably so that paradigm shift isn't too difficult.

That aside, you should realize most LEOs will treat a butterfly knife as a gravity knife in spite of the fact they aren't. You may want to stick with a more common one hand opener.

 

[jason41987]

LEOs can treat it how they want... case would be thrown out anyway since theres a ruling specifically protecting them... however, nothing specifically protects a folding pocket knife... if one could flick it open even if by holding it by the blade then they could say its a gravity knife... so if a cop decides to be that much of a jerk, atleast i have that previous ruling to protect me with the butterfly... and fixed would be legally safer too

 

[zhyla]

however, its looking more and more like butterfly knife vs kabar utility knife as my options...

I don't understand. What's your gripe with folders? They come in too many varieties of lengths, locking mechanisms, blade steels and shapes? They're too convenient? To unobtrusive?

I don't doubt a stick is a better option if you're actually going to get into trouble. But you don't want to lug one around. The best weapon/tool is the one you actually have with you when you need it.

 

[jason41987]

i dont have any grip with folders, its just often cops will try to flick a blade open even if by holding it by the blade to do so so they can call it a gravity knife and try to get you on that charge... they would try the same charge with a butterfly knife, sure, but the difference is a butterfly knife actually has a specific ruling that protects its use, making it legally safer

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Beatin' The Rap

LEOs can treat it how they want... case would be thrown out anyway since theres a ruling specifically protecting them... however, nothing specifically protects a folding pocket knife... if one could flick it open even if by holding it by the blade then they could say its a gravity knife... so if a cop decides to be that much of a dick, at least I have that previous ruling to protect me with the butterfly... and fixed would be legally safer too

Remember, Jason, Confucius say

Listen carefully, Grasshopper: in matters concerning the Emperor's Guard, it matters less that a thing is righteous, and more that a thing offend the Guard's eye.

So has it always been: you may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.

More recent scholars have interpreted this to mean, "don't unnecessarily antagonize the law enforcement personnel; they can make you uncomfortable and waste a lot of your time without having to actually prosecute you for anything."

Me, I'm not a big scholar of Oriental philosophy, but I think that rendering has some merit.

 

[jason41987]

well, whats worse... wasting time and taking a ride, or finding myself on probation for choosing the wrong knife?... 5 rides with no persecution is better than just one ride that ends in one, wouldnt you say?

 

[jason41987]

hmm.. what about those tactical gloves with the hardened knuckles?.. i have large hands, so glove shopping is difficult for me, but i could get fingerless gloves... then that would allow me to use my fists in a confrontation without damaging them

 

[JShirley]

i dont want to go with a walking cane though.. prefer to keep my hands free...

I strongly suggest you get some training. A stick in the hand is better than your hands.

From your other suggestions, you seem to be looking for the most outrageous gear possible, and trying to get membership here to back up what you've already decided to do.

Carrying a balisong for defense is a bad idea. I don't care if a court decision says you can. It's still stupid.

Wearing gloves with hard inserts is potentially even stupider, unless you ride motorcycles or bicycles and would be wearing them anyway.

Either take the good advice that offered, or don't. Don't try to make lame excuses for carrying items that are logically unsupportable. Carry them if you insist, just don't waste our time excusing why you're carrying your fantasy weapons.

John

 

[Old Shooter]

What means of self defense do you use in Pennsylvania?

Seems like that should suffice in rural New York State.

I wouldn't expect a town of 5,000 to exactly be a hotbed of crime and violence.

 

[hso]

Without a specific exemption in state law for butterfly knives, which I don't see in NY law nor has anyone here provided, I would keep mine at home and carry a commonly available knife instead (and I LIKE balisongs and have several, at home). There is specific exempting language in some states making it clear that certain types of knives are NOT illegal, but I don't see it in NY so if you could educate me on the specific statute protecting you from individual officer interpretation where it exempts butterfly or balisong knives I would truly appreciate it.

well, whats worse... wasting time and taking a ride, or finding myself on probation for choosing the wrong knife?

How about neither. Staying out of the gray areas where authorities have to decide you're not carrying a gravity knife as opposed to they're making up difficult to defend reasons your standard one hand opener is a gravity knife is something we all have to choose based on whether it's worth the potential problems that the one in a million stop can bring.

Worse, it may not just involve having your knife confiscated and you told to "run along" or "a ride" to talk to a Sergeant at the station and released because your butterfly knife isn't a gravity knife (assuming the Sergeant agrees). When an LEO decides to stop you and search you his attitude may not be that you're just a good guy tripping up on some detail. He may decide that you're someone that warrants being charged and brought in because his opinion is that you somehow have intent to use it as a weapon when it's the furthest thing from your mind. The knife that you and I think of as a simple balisong may then get lumped in that vague "dangerous" category to help raise the bar for your release. Then it can involve bail and court when an over eager attorney on the DA staff wants to use you as a stepping stone to advancement. NYC ambitions can be encountered well outside the city. I can't imagine that you want to go to the expense and trouble to prove the point of law in court like this guy had to do ON APPEAL when narrowing your options a bit can help avoid those chain of unfortunate events. Case law isn't the same as actual exempting legislation and you can find yourself paying an attorney to cite case law before a judge.

Remember that wanting to do something and it being legal and something being legal and it being prudent are all different things.

Your choice.

All that aside, there are a number of perfectly innocent small fixed blade knives that you could pocket carry that are easily accessible and safe.