Non lethal defense for a young, responsible son (11 years of age)

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treitz3

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Hello all and good evening to you all. This is my first post here and I'd like to introduce myself. (Please skip to below the dotted line if you don't care who I am or what my introduction is and you just want my question).

My name is Tom and I am currently 50 years old. I have been around firearms all of my life and even owned rifles for hunting here and there. My old man used to take me skeet shooting when the rifle would literally knock me down to the ground once I pulled the trigger, if that gives you any indication of how long I have pulled triggers. Back then I respected a firearm as much as I still do, although I no longer get "floored" when pulling the trigger on a 12 gauge. LOL

Never in my life have I even considered getting a firearm for actual protection, even though I have ALWAYS been a strong advocate for the 2ndA, until the recent events across this great nation of ours. It has mostly been for sport hunting, which admittedly, I have never really excelled at. Lord help me if I ever have to actually hunt for food.

Whenever I would go deer hunting, I would be annoyed by the noise of 17 or more turkeys seemingly toying with me just feet away. Whenever I would go turkey hunting, I would have to wait in sorrow as the plentiful families of deer walked on by and drank water in front of me. Idgit (me)! It was as if they had meetings beforehand on how to mess with me something hardcore....and it worked.

I have recently purchased a firearm for home protection, of which I will (I am sure) have questions about later on in a different forum category. With that said, here is my question.

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I have an 11 year old son that I would like to have "some" sort of defense while he is home alone. We have already gone through the basics of kitchen knives and securing the home to where he has plenty of options of avoiding an intruder and getting help via a neighbor or 911 (or both, depending on how much time he has). There are multiple exits in which he will be plenty far away from any entrance or exit that the intruder will come in from. The home is secured about as much as can be without having bullet proof windows both day and night.

With the recent school closures and the fact that my wife will soon have to go back to work on occasion, this will leave my son at home alone. This renders a vulnerability to our family security that eats at me at night.

This is where I ask of you all for your help, knowledge and guidance. Any and all opinions or advice will be considered as well as greatly appreciated.

I read about 8 years ago or so that a good defense for women that are scared of guns would be the use of a can of wasp and hornet spray that they keep "convenient" but out of sight. I found that the logic behind it to be very simple and straightforward. The spray goes up to 22 feet, it's pretty accurate and even a bad shot can adjust quickly because they can see the stream being belted out.

I recently thought of this when I *almost* purchased him a can or two of pepper spray to keep hidden in the areas he normally hangs out at when he's home alone.

What I would like to know from the vast knowledge of professionals and veterans of security on this forum is this. Should I offer him pepper spray or wasp and hornet killer for a situation that would give him time enough to get out of it and get help from an adult?

All of our neighbors pack (some have seemingly an arsenal), most neighbors are home during the day and we do live in a very safe neighborhood with plenty of places to strategically hide if the need arises for him but there is always that....."what if"?

Also, is there any advice against doing either? If so, what would your suggestion be?

Thanks for taking the time to read and again, I appreciate any and all input.

Tom
 
Check with your attorney what your legal standing will be if:

1) an intruder breaks in and harms your son or takes your son

2) your son injures himself with whatever implement he was provided to defend himself

3) your son hurts another person with an implement you provided to defend himself

...in circumstances where he is a minor of only 11 years and was left alone in the house.
 
A martial arts class is my suggestion.
Training in self defense, physical fitness, situational awareness will be valuable for his lifetime. It is great for self confidence.
It cannot be taken away when he goes into a school.
I raised three boys, 11 is a little young for unsupervised access to a gun.
 
I second the martial arts classes or boxing. This type of training could take the intruder by surprise. The bear spray and wasp would be good as well. I'm thinking one of those water cannons kids used in the pool could be filled with some form of liquid that is irritating to the eyes also. As a last resort if he takes self defense classes maybe he could have a staff made of some hard wood with a metal cap attached to the end so that he can increase distance from the intruder and jab him. Show him not swing the staff like a baseball bat but to lunge and jab as this creates a pressure point which increase the force per square inch tremendously.

I would also instill that when he is alone to be vigilant and not be wearing ear buds or headphones while playing videos or listening to music as he has to practice situational awareness. If possible ask the neighbors to keep an eye out for him while alone. You may consider installing security cameras inside the house where he is not aware of there location and outside that will alert you to your phone if they detect motion close to the entrances.
 
Forget wasp spray. It's been shown to be pretty useless and illegal in some places to use in that mode.
Letting kids having access to a loaded gun without adult supervision has legal problems and you cannot trust your 'lecture' to produce safe behavior. While most kid might be ok, there are some that aren't. Parents can be pretty clueless on behavior. Friends, as A. Farmer, mentioned can really screw up the system.

Here's a related case, I know. Really great kid, honor student, student organizations, never any trouble. Wears a halo almost. Dad has a Chevy Nova with a 496 cu inch engine. It is is baby, painted, polished - the whole car enthusiast shtick. He never let the kid drive it. After the kid graduates HS, he asks Dad if he could drive it. Dad says, OK - my wonderful boy. Only around the neighborhood.

Kid picks ups friends. Into a tree at an estimated 110 mph. All dead.
 
Thanks all for your replies. I like the idea of a security camera that alerts me of someone near the home....will definitely look into that. I also agree with me not being worried about my son, it's his friends that I am worried about with regards to any weapon (Wasp and hornet spray, knife, etc...). He will not have access to the gun until he is of age to properly handle one. That was never an option to consider for me.

Would bear spray be considered the same as wasp and hornet killer in this regard?

I forgot to mention last night that he is already signed up for Taekwondo. I will also consult with a lawyer on the questions posed.

Tom
 
As mentioned the wasp killer is pretty worthless. OC spray of some kind is hit and miss on people but beats nothing. Taser (I mean the real one, not a stun gun) can be very effective if you take the time and money to make sure he can use one.
 
treitz3 said:
Thanks all for your replies. I like the idea of a security camera that alerts me of someone near the home....will definitely look into that. I also agree with me not being worried about my son, it's his friends that I am worried about with regards to any weapon (Wasp and hornet spray, knife, etc...). He will not have access to the gun until he is of age to properly handle one. That was never an option to consider for me.

Would bear spray be considered the same as wasp and hornet killer in this regard?

I forgot to mention last night that he is already signed up for Taekwondo. I will also consult with a lawyer on the questions posed.

Tom
Click to expand...
If he is responsible enough to only use it when someone is forcing their way in the home who cares? If it saves his life and you can trust him to not leave the house with it or try it out on his friends? I would not give any thought to what if kind of things. If he has to use it and it saves the day, deal with the DA who wants to push it after.
 
Forget wasp spray. It only gets mentioned as a fictitious fable. It kills wasps and that's about it.

OC spray (pepper spray) can be effective at making people close their eyes involuntarily. It can cause pain and difficulty breathing in some people, but less in others. Again, it is pretty effective at making people close their eyes or causing a lot of eye-watering so they have trouble seeing clearly. Bear spray is a type of OC spray that is usually weaker than the most potent kind but which often comes in a larger container. These OC sprays can be good at impairing an attacker, but they don't necessarily stop someone entirely. It is more likely to stop someone who has a lower level of determination. None of this is advice about whether or not an 11 year old should or should not use it.

Cameras mostly function as a deterrent, and that can be a good thing. The most likely attack would be a property crime (burglary) where the burglars are not expecting a kid "Home Alone." You can achieve a deterrent effect with "fake" cameras. I don't recommend the $10 fake cameras that look fake, but you can get real cameras for as little as $18 to $30 each and you don't need complete wiring, recording or any service. The only functioning camera you need is one on a phone or tablet your son has possession of so you or he can make a video call to one another.

My recommendation is to secure the perimeter of the house as best as practical. Secure your doors from kick-ins, especially alternate entrances like the side door from the yard into the garage and the door between the garage and the house. Make sure sliding glass doors can't just be lifted off the track and pushed in. Have a room within the house that can be secured that your son can run to in case of an invasion.

Consider using combination door locks so your son does not get locked out. I have these on my house and wouldn't be without them. My kids never get locked out and we don't have to hide keys, lose keys, or concern ourselves with stolen keys. Not only that, but we don't need to have a key to lock the house when we leave. Suppose a kid leaves the house to go ride his bike. He checks his pocket for the key to lock the door behind him and remembers he left it on the kitchen counter. Does he go back and get it or just leave the door unlocked? With a combo, he can lock it without a key. If you get one that has a motor to move the deadbolt you can even have it lock automatically and you can lock and unlock from anywhere with a phone app. But the motor deadbolts use more battery and they require precise alignment of the door and frame so bolt binding doesn't hamper function.

The most advantageous practical non-firearm weapon type in a home invasion scenario would a pole-arm. If I was going to try to keep people from coming through a door (exterior or interior) or through a window, I would rather have a pole-arm than a knife, club, sword, hammer, axe, or even a bow. The simplest pole-arm is the spear. The Halberd or English Bill are other examples. If you want to make a kitchen knife a better weapon, securely lash it to the end of a sturdy pole. Better yet, get a well-made pole-arm.

I'm not going to recommend an 11 year old fight home invaders. I don't recommend martial arts for this purpose either. Right now, classes are too risky anyway. You can't social distance in Jiu Jitsu. Under other circumstances, I do recommend martial arts overall, but not for this purpose.
 
I put a can of pepper spray under my son's top bunk. Using zip ties. It's a small bottle sabre stream. He also has a bow in his closet no arrows. I trust him, his sister not so much. He's 11 sister is 10 and she's a redhead for what it's worth. We will leave them home alone but only for a few minutes. Maybe to run to a neighbor's house. We also keep a can of bear spray on top of fridge. And just FYI bear spray is usually weaker then most regular sprays. Read up on it on the non firearm weapons.
 
I would also consider placing wooden dowels on the windows so that they can not slide the window up. Some of the locks on windows are easy to over come with a butter knife. place door jams in every entrance of the house as well on top of the locks.
 
When I was eleven I had a Louisville slugger and a solid shafted Putter Dad did not care for and if those failed a Machete was my constant companion on my woods and swamp wanderings and hung on the bed post when not.

I guess these days a machete might be hard to explain to most folks, but Strike-out King or not I could swing a bat or a golf club.

I also support martial arts training, and if you can get and instructor that is willing to teach some sort of stick fighting early on so much the better.

Also breaking holds and escape is a good thing. My sister and I had a plan to retreat to my bedroom and chock the door knob with a chair long enough to open the bottom of my floor to ceiling window and go out to the front yard screaming our heads off and running for the neighbor's.

A way to call 911 is a must....even if it may take too long for the state to respond.

-kBob
 
This is far, far too dependent on you and your child to be reasonably answered here. People who have raised childish children can't imagine any other sort; people who have raised 13 year olds more mature than most college grads wonder why you would ask the question.

You need to have a hard look at your child, and weigh the risks and benefits. Not knowing you or your child, I like the idea of a Family Size can of mace, and a few hours a week of getting beat up sparing or wrestling. The benefits of learning to take a good beating and keep thinking extend far beyond self defense.
 
treitz3 said:
I read about 8 years ago or so that a good defense for women that are scared of guns would be the use of a can of wasp and hornet spray
Click to expand...

Horribly stupid and possibly illegal. The people who recommend such are fools to be disregarded. If trapped with only that at hand...sure, but to make it your defensive choice is simply stupid.

In all truth, a large OC canister, a youth 20 gauge in a hardened closet, and a steel door and deadbolt on every exterior door is best. That and a cell phone and an escape plan.
 
I too am new to this forum but I agree with hso. I would recommend a 20 guage loaded with rock salt and a long barreled one at that. I started and trained my grandsons on a single shot Winchester 47 in .22 LR. I wanted the long barrel because it's not as easy to fan around as a shorter barrel; more safe in my humble opinion. The rock salt will not be lethal but I can make the neighbors 2000lb bull remember real fast where that hole in the fence is, guarantee it will work on a miscreant wanting to do harm.
 
My suggestion is an assortment of dogs. At least one little yippee thing to wake up the bruiser that will actually an intruders attention. Labs, boxers, rotts, pits, and shepherds are all natural defenders, and I listed them in the order of aggression from what I have normally seen. If I were getting a dog as a step of home defense I would go with a rott because they have the size and look to be intimidating, but they are generally big babies with kids or women, and when they get into defense mode they mean business. I have a lab/shepherd mix now and she will seriously mess up a food bowl but she does alert the whole neighborhood if anybody is out of place, and for some reason our end of the street has been the end that has not been bothered by people breaking into cars in the night. My neighbor has a Chesapeake with very similar temperament, and the folks across the road have a jack russell, so that little yippee jack russel sounds the alarm for the big dogs.
 
Personal experience.

In 7th grade the school bully desired to stomp on me in the schoolyard on the last day of school. He totally dominated me, and I felt helpless. I told my parents what happened. My did enrolled me in a Judo course and I attended classes all summer long. When school opened I the fall the bully again singled me out. He attacked me again. I trounced him. It ended when I put him in a painful immobilization hold. He could do nothing but fee the pain. I told him I would only let him free is he apologized to me. In a bit of time he could not stand the pain and he apologized in front is a large audience of students. No one bothered me again. Teach you son to defend himself with his body. The fundamentals of Judo can be leaned in ten weeks. It is potent defense.
 
I like your signature, @1942bull.

So far, a very good discussion with plenty for my family and I to think about. I appreciate the candor as well as the variances in opinions/scenarios/suggestions. Looks like I have found my home for gun discussions.

Dogs right now are out of the question for reasons I do not wish to disclose. Sometime perhaps but not right now. The 20 gauge loaded with rock salt is a new one to me and I will look into it.

I have one other question. Mace seems to be non-controversial (unless it it misused by my son because he is getting his rear end handed to him in a "kid" fight). Is mace (for life threatening defense situations only) generally an accepted form of defense for an 11 year old in terms of the parents not getting put in jail, getting into a lengthy and costly legal battle or something that perhaps I/we have not thought about yet?

Please advise and thanks,

Tom
 
treitz3 said:
The 20 gauge loaded with rock salt is a new one to me and I will look into it.
Click to expand...

No

If you use a deadly weapon against a home invader there's no question that you are already in the deadly force situation. This isn't running some kids off of your melon patch. You've presented a situation in which your child's life is in danger and there's no use of "rock salt" that will help.

Secure the perimeter against easy entry by simple methods so no one can break in without greater effort than someone else's home, provide an alarms system to summon help whether your child is paying attention or not, provide communications in the form of a cell phone to help your child summon help, develop a plan to escape the house to a neighbor that is prepared to protect your child, give your child training in how to use a large volume CS spray to slow entry, but more importantly to facilitate escape if they can't do so undetected, if your child is cut off, provide a safe haven for them to retreat to, and if that safe haven is breached your child is in mortal danger and needs to be able to respond with lethal force to save their life from the safe haven they were forced to retreat to.
 
Last edited:
hso said:
No

If you use a deadly weapon against a home invader there's no question that you are already in the deadly force situation. This isn't running some kids off of your melon patch. You've presented a situation in which your child's life is in danger and there's no use of "rock salt" that will help.

Secure the perimeter against easy entry by simple methods so no one can break in without greater effort than someone else's home, provide an alarms system to summon help whether your child is paying attention or not, provide communications in the form of a cell phone to help your child summon help, develop a plan to escape the house to a neighbor that is prepared to protect your child, give your child training in how to use a large volume CS spray to slow entry, but more importantly to facilitate escape if they can't do so undetected, if your child is cut off, provide a safe haven for them to retreat to, and if that safe haven is breached your child is in mortal danger and needs to be able to respond with lethal force to save their life from the safe haven they were forced to retreat to.
Click to expand...
Said the man who has never been shot with "rock salt." I have a friend who served as an Army Ranger that has brutal scars from "rock salt." I would like to be standing and listening to you two have a conversation about the effectiveness of it. But face to face, not this key board stuff.
 
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