Non-Lethal Weapon - size 7 & 1/8

[Shawnee]

Many (I guess) of us who have worn western hats all our lives know it can be an effective non-lethal weapon. I was tipped off to it by a friend who had just become a San Antonio beat cop. And, I've used it twice with most excellent results on punks who thought they would impress their friends by getting in a stranger's face over an imagined affront.

One incident will illustrate. I had opened the door of a store on the 410 Loop in San Antonio and entered. A young minority fellow behind me confronted me inside - all in a vocal lather - apparently because I was supposed to get out of his righteous way. I listened to him patiently for a minute and when he became profane (several children nearby) I raised my hand to the brim of my 10x Resistol as if I were going to take it off and apologize but instead hit him - "with viggah "- on his brow and bridge of his nose with the crown of the hat (which is always quite stiff on good hats). He fell down and upon looking up at me decided he didn't want to speak to me anymore.

P.S. I should mention the young lad above was about 20, maybe 5'4", maybe 130 lbs. and he did get a bloody nose out of it. The other incident also ended with the accoster having a bloody nose. I LOVE that hat trick !

 

[Piedmont Plinker]

you can wear those on planes, right?
BAN THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!j/k

 

[Car Knocker]

I'd say you're lucky he didn't press charges against you.

 

[hso]

Teaching someone manners doesn't require you to whack them a good one, but your point is taken about the advantages a good hat has as a nontraditional weapon to buy you time to engage a more effective one.

 

[Shawnee]

Hi HSO...

[I]"Teaching someone manners doesn't require you to whack them a good one"[/I]

I'm certainly open to suggestions.

?????

 

[hso]

When parenting and community fail to teach someone manners a good verbal whack upside the haid usually does the trick (temporarily). Woofing, dressing down, chewing out, a verbal counter assault or whatever you want to call it is unexpected by these punks who are using society's polite nature against us for their petty power trips.

There was a great article in a magazine years ago that my boss brought to me about training that Valhalla had conducted in the technique of verbal domination and counter assault. "Woofing". It was focused on just such situations as you've described. They taught students to recognize the situation and to become comfortable turning the tables and verbally dominating the other person. Usually it's such a surprise to the tough guy to have some Straight insist that they behave and talk in an "acceptable manner" the tough guy melts away.

The risk with this, like the hat whack, is that you've got to understand it may not end there and escalating the confrontation may cause it to become physical and dangerous.

 

[MostlyGenius]

I can understand the desire to issue a verbal, physical, or even metallic smack down to people who don't know how polite society functions, but I don't see much point to these sorts of encounters.

It might make you feel better not to step out of some rude persons way, verbally chastise them but you are not solving the problem. He certainly learned that you aren't a person to be spoken to in such a manner, that is about as far as it goes. There is a big difference between giving them a lesson and teaching them a lesson.

I am not even to worried about the escalation, but I am not happy at the prospect of the aftermath. The world is full of rude jerks who didn't get enough spankings as a child, and our society is more likely to punish you for correcting him. Step out these idiots way and get on with your day.

 

[Mannix]

Step out these idiots way and get on with your day.

Although that is the easiest way to go about it, it doesn't solve the problem in any permanent manner either. These confrontations are all about showing "who's boss" and dominating you verbally to show off to his buddies. Giving him what he wants only encourages the behavior. A verbal smack upside the head may make him think twice next time.

 

[MostlyGenius]

Although that is the easiest way to go about it, it doesn't solve the problem in any permanent manner either.

Not true. My hypothetical participation in the matter is over. I have permanently extracted myself from the process. What I haven't done is changed the offenders behavior. I don't believe that this dumb kid is going to go forth and sin no more because a cowboy tricked him and bloodied his nose.

Yes, it sucks that people can be so rude and there is nothing you can do about it. Civilization crumbles a little more, but this altercation did not need to occur from a self-defense standpoint.

 

[Shawnee]

Good morning Mostly Genius...

In fact, western hat notwithstanding, I do come from one of the generations that was taught some manners and public affability. In fact, it has always been my habit to hold a door for someone behind me regardless of gender, age or whether their belt is above or below their buttocks. But in this case the fellow must have scooted in after approaching from behind a large vehicle or something because I literally had no idea he was even on the planet until I was inside and he took my arm to accost me with his goofy machismo. And when I politely said; "Sorry 'bout that" only to have him demonstrate all the big bad words he had learned in the barrio it was clear he was determined to escalate his harangue.
That is not to say your suggestion to "step out of his way" is "bad" - it isn't. Had you known all the details of the incident, ie, had you been there, I will happily give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you probably would have made a more accurate judgement and more appropriate comment.

Good morning HSO...

As noted above - use of the hat was simply a judgement call based on being there and assessing all the elements of the situation. In fact, in all confrontations, making a truly accurate judgement is absolutely dependant upon "having been there". And that's an important thing for you (or anyone) to realize in order for you to avoid making errant judgements and errant comments such as you have posted here. Will also point out the title of this forum is "non-lethal weapons" - which implies some sort of physical contact, if judged necessary by assessment of the situation.

With all that said - your "woofing" concept is interesting and I would (truly) like to see you expound on it. I would think others frequenting the "non-lethal weapon" forum would too as they might well welcome having another non-lethal tool in their arsenal as a potentially effective alternative to the use of some other, more exhilerating "non-lethal weapon". What article did it come from and who wrote it ? What are the details of the article ? What are the details of the context in which your boss was presenting it to you ? Have you used "woofing" with good success? If so, please share the details of the incident(s). How many times have you used it with success? How many times has it failed? I ask those last two questions because the claim that "it usually works" is too gratuitous for credibility. Do please make that contribution here. I'm sure many besides myself would be interested.

 

[CK]

Problem is, there are people who are in need of attitude adjustment. I am glad there are people out there that are willing to administer attitude adjustment, so that proper manner is observed. So many times, it is only through the school of hard knock that it will get through.

 

[sm]

Reading people, places and things, are situation dependent.

Manners, yes I too was raised with manners, and it is my responsibility to pass forward, as passed to me.
Situations dictate. I have a number of folks on this forum that have asked I not call them sir, or madam in private communications, and I them. Publicly, we use the sir and ma'am, to pass forward "etiquette".

Hats.
Situations runs from letting a dawg know it is not good manners to jump up and onto someone I introduce them to. They don't jump on me, and I may have used a hat to assist with instilling this is not proper behavior.

Distraction, to gain distance, and other reasons do work.
Then again this can be "read" as provoking or escalating further a situation.

Not everyone is raised with the same Norms and Mores, and Cultural "behaviors".
I forget which culture, still the sole of footwear pointed at someone is considered very rude.
I am a Southern Boy, to me, this is no big deal if I am sitting such and others such, and they prop their out, or cross legs and the sole of footwear is facing me.

Hat being removed, tossed aside might "signal" it is time for a fistfight, or "Come on Darlin', lets dance", or other amorous behaviors.
Turning one around might be the signal to others, "take down this mark".

Some folks are "testing" or as I call it "checking out the dance floor".
Bravado, rite of passage in front of others, one might be the distraction so punks do harm somewhere else.
Depending on how the person reacts, this might escalate, or deescalate.

Then again it might be they want you in their face, the cashier is armed robbed and out the back door they go.

I was small, had my straw cowboy hat and boots on, and with Mentor entered a Mom&Pop Grocery store, gas station.
We had been in there lots of time, and I knew the folks, I did not even have to say ma'am or sir to them, they gave me permission to not have to.
My hat is snatched off, and "tip your hat Young'un and use your manners!"
Man! I was getting my butt chewed out and good!

Two fellas left, with all this fussing at me and getting yelled at. I did not see them, but Mentors did, and the eyes of the Owners.
These two had been hanging around, not needing assistance, and casing the joint, waiting for no customers, and all.

"What did you learn Young'un?"
"I'm not tall and my hat hurts when you hit me with it".

 

[hso]

Shawnee,

I've used it twice to reasonably good effect. In both cases the young men were being exceptionally rude to clerks and threatening them. One was by himself and the other was with a young woman. Neither seemed to have anyone else in the store with them. There were either elderly or very young kids in the store at the time. I'm not a large person and I don't look like a tough guy, but I do spend much of my time dealing with others in an advisory or adversarial role, depending upon the situation, so I don't project the manner of someone who backs down. In both cases I raised my voice loud enough to be heard across the store and ordered the loudmouthed kid to "stop it right now!", followed by something along the lines of, "you don't talk to people you don't know that way and you don't do it in front of your elders or children", "your grandmother would be ashamed of you", "take care of your business and behave like a young man instead of a punk kid". It came as a complete surprise to them in both cases and each was probably simply flabbergasted that someone would interfere with them and didn't know how to respond.

The first time I did it the lady with the kids behind me in line thanked me and the second time the pair of elderly women chimed in at the end telling the kid and his girlfriend that they should find his momma and tell her what happened.

Southnarc taught using voice and presence to distract and dominate a potential assailant in his PUC course when I took it. He also taught that if the fight starts use of voice can help to establish dominance.

It all depends upon the situation, but use of voice is an option that may prevent the escalation to the physical.

PS - I'll try to find the article I read. My boss is unsure of the magazine he brought in and Rob Pincus doesn't remember Valhalla teaching a specific course just for this (although they do cover something like it in their LE courses).

 

[zxcvbob]

Y'all are ruining a good story by analyzing it to death!

(I especially liked the "with viggah" part)

 

[Shawnee]

Hi HSO...

If you used that ruse twice to good effect did you use your hat all the other times? Just kiddin' !

The "voice and presence" routine has worked for me too, more than once.
I think most or all of the times have involved miscreants who were young and also quite unprepared for it. I recall my line once was: "Is your Dad so stupid he didn't know any manners to teach you?" So I doubt if we are really too far out of synch on this issue.

But with that said I'll relate another incident with another "non-lethal weapon"...

Was playing golf at a crowded course in Winter Haven, Florida on a day so windy everyone was having distance troubles... shots going too short, too long, too far left/right. One of my group accidentally hit his ball longer than planned and it landed quite close to a member of the group ahead of us - and, unfortunately, this happened twice. :banghead: No golfer enjoys having this happen.
After the second time two of the other group came roaring back and one guy jumped out of the cart and advanced spitting fire and brimstone. My friend's profuse apologies just seemed to embolden the guy and I finally stepped in - reminded the guy it was accidental - he had received copious apology, and since all in both groups had paid to play golf, not fight, I suggested we all get back to our games.
He came a couple steps toward me in a threatening manner but stopped when I removed the rather fat cigar I was smoking from my lips, flicked the ash off so the ember glowed bright, highly-visible red and calmly held it at my side as one would a stabbing instrument. He studied that ember for a bit and then huffed and asked if I thought I was going to poke him with that "dog-rocket".
I assured him I would never do such a thing and that I sincerely hoped he didn't accidentally run into it because I was almost certain it would be extremely painful.
He retreated while making a disappointing announcement about my parentage and reminding us that he would annhilate our whole group if the "so-called accident" ever happened again.
Fortunately - that was the end of that.

 

[hso]

Windbags are usually cautious around embers.

 

[Piedmont Plinker]

A cowboy hat- whie you might get a few glances, it is a lot more normal (at least for young people) than carrying a cane, and they do function well as hats.
If someone came up to me "all in a vocal lather", I would stop him. He accosted you, invaded your personal space, perhaps threatened you, and certainly ruined the day for you.
Another incident like this- my brother was playing tag with some other kids at a Pinewood Derby race. He tagged a kid- the kid tripped, fell. Kid's dad comes up, grabs my brother, and runs in front of the whole auditorium (in a church) screaming "WHOSE CHILD IS THIS!?"
I walk into auditorium to find my brother crying. I ask a few friends and aquantinces why and I am told about the loudy crap.
I retrieved a paint scraper from somewhere and went up to him. I demanded "Why did you abuse my brother?" He dismissed me, and I seriously considered using that paint scraper, but I was only ten, and this guy was bigger than me.
I'm not fourteen, 6'6'', 220 lbs. The nexy guy won't be so lucky.

 

[hso]

I retrieved a paint scraper from somewhere and went up to him. I demanded "Why did you abuse my brother?" He dismissed me, and I seriously considered using that paint scraper, but I was only ten, and this guy was bigger than me.
I'm not fourteen, 6'6'', 220 lbs. The nexy guy won't be so lucky.

Whoa there. You don't honestly think that you're going to get anyone to tell you that using a paint scraper, or any improvised weapon, on some guy that behaved badly is acceptable do you? Hot headed behavior is a quick way to get to room temperature.

 

[Pax Jordana]

he took my arm to accost me

Now that part wasn't in the original post - now you're not teaching him manners, you're stopping an assault. Poor guy just happened to get in the way of your hat as you removed it- you needed your vision unobstructed to beat a hasty retreat

So these hats are made of felt/fur/whatever? And they're stiff enough to make your nose bleed? I gotta get me a resistol.

Oh, and this forum is non-firearm weapons, though I'd think you'd have to work a lot harder than you did to kill somebody with a hat.

Anyway, in my expert opinion (remember I am a lawyer as well as a harvard phd) ya did OK. Though I can't imagine that would fly around here.. everybody's rude and cop-happy. Woofing, maybe. I wonder, how does one cultivate one's inner viking?

 

[sm]

Southern Catfish Joint
Part of the ambiance, is to toss the peanut hulls on the floor.

We have a nice young lady, waitress, with a restraining order against a boy stalking her, prank calls and all.

Fellow comes in, despite this piece of paper.

There is a certain sound made of wooden chairs scootin' back on a wooden floor, the sound of folks stepping on peanut hulls.

"Can't we assist you sir, lady looks a bit busy?"

Fellow decided he needed to be elsewhere.
Just 4 guys, one with a Mug of Beer in hand, one with a small platter of hush puppies in hand, one fiddling with the metal napkin dispenser and I was reading the bottle of Tabasco Sauce.

He never came back, never again bothered the lady...

 

[Biker]

Kids today, many anyway, have been raised to believe that there are no real consequences to their actions. They cussed out their teachers, yelled at old folks, nothing happens.

I think that Shawnee taught Broke-Nose-Boy a valuable lesson. I might have done something similar myself, although I don't think my bandanna would leave much of a mark.

Biker

 

[hso]

you needed your vision unobstructed to beat a hasty retreat

Now how did PJ know the punk's name was Hasty Retreat?

 

[Brian Williams]

Is Hasty Retreat Sumdude's younger brother's second cousin twiced removed?

 

[Piedmont Plinker]

Paint scraper- no. Not a good idea. Like I said, I was ten.
But if I had had something like Shawnee's hat, I would have popped the guy.
My fifth-grade mind grabbed the nearest hurtin instrument I could think of. I once had a paint scraper slice my face when it was thrown down a laundry chute at me (don't ask) but I know they can be damn good improvised weapons.
I would never use the large Benchmade I carry to hurt some one for hurting my brother. Using that, a paint scraper, a screw driver, etc, would land me charges for attempted murder. My little fifth-grade mind also realized that hurting this guy would get me in trouble, I just don't know the depth. Now I do.
I'm a lot wiser from this experience. But if any ****head hurts my brother, after the fact, he can't expect me not to do the same.
And I'm not talking about shiving him here- just a pop, with something like a hat.
Good advice as always, HCO, and taken.
Probably should be a bit more lucid in my future posts (I feel like I've said this before)

 

[coelacanth]

for those of us unaccustomed to wearing . . . . .

cowboy hats and such the ubiquitous rolled up magazine serves much the same function. My old boonie hat might get tossed at you as a distraction but the latest copy of Blade magazine rolled up in a tight roll is going to catch you any one of several places that could change your outlook in a hurry. I'll leave it to PJ to determine if such a weapon exceeds the "blade" length ordinances on the books.