Non NFA Shotgun a bunch of silly mess

[Theohazard]

So here's my question: If the ATF were to re-classify these non-NFA shotguns into NFA firearms, what would they re-classify them as? Short-barrel shotguns? That's not possible without changing federal law, since a short-barrel shotgun needs to have a stock or be made from a weapon that had a stock. Would they re-classify them as AOWs? That would break the long-standing and well-established ATF regulation of 26" being the limit on what makes a weapon possible to conceal and therefore makes it an AOW. But let's pretend they raised the 26" length limit; what would be the new overall length requirement to make the firearm not be an AOW? 27"? That seems a little absurd to raise it by just one inch. 28"? Anything over 28" would catch most 18" barrel PGO shotguns into being AOWs too. I find that very unlikely to happen.

AI&P Tactical, to re-classify these as NFA firearms, the ATF would either have to break federal law or break a long-standing and well-established regulatory precedent. I suppose the latter is more likely than the former, but I seen neither as very likely. And either would open up the ATF to all sorts of lawsuits. There are a lot of companies out there who base their products on a 26" limit for an AOW, and a new overall length limit would catch a lot of other firearms too. There would be companies lining up to sue the ATF.

Also, if they re-defined the length limit for an AOW, what makes you think that these 26.4" PGO shotguns would be illegal but your 27.5" PGO shotgun would make the cut?

 

[Sam1911]

It appears it would be possible to call them large bore destructive devices, essentially removing the sporting exemption generally extended to shotguns and shotgun shells.

(2) Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter (.50 inches or 12.7 mm), except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and

Which was how they did in the USAS12 and Street Sweeper back in the early '90s. That can be REALLY capriciously applied if they want -- as evidenced by the fact that they never have ruled box fed Saiga12s to be DDs.

Now how exactly theyd word it so as not to sweep up all the other PGO shotgun-like Other Firearms too, but if they really put their minds to it, I'm sure they could find a way.

If you think about it, as no PGO is legally a shotgun, it's almost a surprise that the BATFE doesn't consider them DDs universally. But there are a fair number of over .50 rifles which have been granted the sporting exemption so they pretty much can do whatever they want.

 

[Theohazard]

It appears it would be possible to call them large bore destructive devices, essentially removing the sporting exemption generally extended to shotguns and shotgun shells.

I would almost welcome them doing that. It would open up a whole new can of worms that would likely cause a backlash that could easily go in our favor. That ATF leaked white paper already indicated they want to re-visit the sporting purposes interpretation, and also the political climate in the legislative and executive branches is a lot more pro-gun than it was in the 90's when they pulled that nonsense with the USAS12 and Street Sweeper.

Now how exactly theyd word it so as not to sweep up all the other PGO shotgun-like Other Firearms too, but if they really put their minds to it, I'm sure they could find a way.

Yeah, I can't see an easy way to re-classify these without catching 18" PGO shotguns also. I would think that any work-around would be somewhat shaky and would open the ATF up to all sorts of legal challenges. But that's just my layman's opinion as I'm not any kind of lawyer.

 

[AI&P Tactical]

Sam - I was making a post way back and use the term " when you are in the ---- and did not even use word, I used S**t, just like that with the asterisks. I then received a warning from this site. Very strict and that is OK as it is in keeping with the name of this Forum as "The High Road" means just what it says. However, this man accused me of being disingenuous, using the site to sell products, calling ATF and reporting people. Also the spreading rumors part was uncalled for as I am an 07 FFL who contacted ATF for a Clarification and I repeated what I was told by ATF.

He accused me of starting rumors to "Increase the Visabilty of my Products" His words. So how can you say he did not attack and insult me? How is that not insulting. I consider what he said a direct insult and I am not thin skinned in the least, I simply can read and read what he said. So attacking someone appears not be an infraction here on the High Road.

As for So Called NON NFA, they are still considered NFA firearms in many states so if you live in one of those states they in fact so Called NON NFA firearms. I can right now build 50 of these guns with the receivers and barrels I have on hand, however, I see no point in them and that is the topic of my post. To lengthen the stock to use make using a 14" barrel is nonsensical, add that several manufacturers already make a PGO shotgun that approximate length with a higher round count and thus the point of my post.

It is disturbing to me that you can not see the insults and personal attacks in that mans post. But it is your call so I have to accept it. Others know me and know that Ed is off base and out of line.

 

[Theohazard]

As for So Called NON NFA, they are still considered NFA firearms in many states so if you live in one of those states they in fact so Called NON NFA firearms.

No, there are no states where these are NFA firearms. The NFA is the National Firearms Act. It's a federal law. Therefore, "NFA" specifically refers to federal law and the ATF's enforcement of it.

Sure, these firearms are probably illegal in certain states, but regular 18" barrel PGO shotguns are also illegal in certain states. All sorts of random firearms are illegal in certain states. (Heck, even the original Marlin Model 60 wood-stocked .22 is illegal in New Jersey.) However, federally -- and in most states (if not all) -- there is no legal difference between a sub-18" barrel non-NFA PGO shotgun and an 18" PGO shotgun. Both are "other firearms" and both are not subject to any kind of barrel length limit, just a 26" overall limit.

 

[Ed Ames]

To be clear: I didn't accuse you of anything. I said your posts can be interpreted in a certain way, and while I don't know if that interpretation is correct it is something people will think.

That isn't a dodge, and it wasn't malicious. Half the reason I posted was to make you aware of how people will perceive your posts, because I assumed that you wouldn't want to post things that were perceived that way.

I don't sell firearms, and I don't buy from you, so your business practices are only a concern to me to the extent that they cause trouble for the industry. FUD about legal firearms is trouble as far as I'm concerned. Not trouble for me, per se, but trouble. If I wanted a short pump shotgun I'd buy a KSG over any PGO so these specific guns are not something I personally care much about, but other people do. Unfortunately the firearms industry is full of people who are happy to accept 2A infringement that hurts their competitors or keeps new competition away so it is something savvy customers watch for.

 

[Theohazard]

I'm with Ed Ames here: He wasn't attacking or insulting anybody, he was simply pointing out what AI&P Tactical's first post looks like. To me, the OP's first post reads like an ad. Combine the OP's misunderstanding of why these non-NFA firearms are legal and his assertion that this legality is on some kind of shaky ground, and it creates the appearance that he's trying to spread misinformation in order to sell his products.

AI&P Tactical has said that's not the case, and I'll take him at his word. But it's not unreasonable for someone to think it was a possibility based on the beginning of this thread. And to me, AI&P Tactical's response has been over-the-top. And the more he rails angrily against Ed's comments, the more he makes it look like maybe it was an ad after all.

Ed offered up the possibility that this was an ad, AI&P Tactical said that it wasn't. I think we're all fine with leaving it at that.

 

[Sam1911]

As for So Called NON NFA, they are still considered NFA firearms in many states so if you live in one of those states they in fact so Called NON NFA firearms.

Can you name any states where these weapons are considered "NFA firearms" under that state's law? I cannot.

It seems an impossible term for a state to apply, seeing as it would literally be saying, "We, the state of XYZ, declare this weapon to be regulated by a specific federal law." And that doesn't make sense because only the text of that federal law, and the federal BATFE's interpretation of it, can make something regulated under that law. Not the say-so of some random state.

And if you did live in a state where those would be illegal, then they'd simply be illegal in that state. Not "so-called" anything. As Thohazard said, in NJ a Marlin 60 happens to fall under their definition of an "assault firearm." That doesn't make it a "so called assault firearm" Or "so called legal firearm." Or any other such thing.

Is a Ruger SR40c a "So Called LEGAL handgun" on the basis of the fact that it isn't legal to sell in California?



Further, I'm not sure it's even accurate to say that these wouldn't be perfectly legal in "many" states. I believe I asked in another thread, but does anyone have a count of which states have laws which would make a PGO Other Firearm illegal? Surely there are some, right? I'd be REALLY surprised if any have laws which specifically outlaw these "Raptor" versions with the 14" barrel and Shockwave Tech grips. But please, since you've said that many do -- tell us which ones.

EDIT: If I'm reading correctly, CA does outlaw them because their laws consider anything that is EITHER under 26" OR has a barrel less than 18" to be a Short Barreled Shotgun per CA law.

Anywhere else? 802Traders sales site says they aren't legal in CA or NY, but for sale everywhere else. So...two sates then?

 

[Sam1911]

He accused me of starting rumors to "Increase the Visabilty of my Products" His words. So how can you say he did not attack and insult me? How is that not insulting. I consider what he said a direct insult and I am not thin skinned in the least, I simply can read and read what he said. So attacking someone appears not be an infraction here on the High Road.

In reading what he exactly said, and the way he exactly said it, I don't consider that to be a personal attack, nor an insult. I certainly can understand why you might take offense at it, if you choose to, and I could also understand why you would choose to explain why the implications he suggested are completely wrong. If he'd called you a jerk and a liar and said your dog's ugly I'd see attack and insult.

But, I am not the only authority here and I other of the Staff may see this differently. Please feel free to take it up with the rest by hitting the "Report" button and ask them to weigh in with their read on it.

 

[AI&P Tactical]

I'll not do that Sam. You are the most active Monitor here and the one that seems to really care about the subject and about our gun rights and I consider what you decide as final. I will instead take it as an invitation not to participate in this forum any longer. Also, I am not a liar and my dog is far from ugly.

 

[Virginian]

I thought Ed impugned AI&P's character, and I thought it was totally out of line. AI&P just presented a factual view of things and clearly outlined possibilities versus current reality.
I have no dog in the fight as I have zero interest in anything remotely tactical or short barrelled. Shortest barrel I own is 25" on a 28 gauge Skeet gun.

 

[Theohazard]

AI&P just presented a factual view of things

But he didn't. He has repeatedly shown a misunderstanding of the details outlining the legality of these firearms. He has repeatedly implied that these firearms are legal solely due to an ATF determination letter, and all they need to do is redact that letter to make these firearms illegal. But that's simply not the case.

These firearms are legal due to federal law and the ATF's longstanding interpretation of federal law. Sure, the ATF could re-interpret "sporting purposes" to make these DDs, but they could do the same to regular 18" barrel PGO shotguns. Sure, the ATF could raise the concealable AOW threshold, but if they raised it by just 2 inches it would also catch a lot of 18" barrel PGO shotguns.

 

[Sam1911]

I will instead take it as an invitation not to participate in this forum any longer.

If you'd take this one interaction as a reason to stop participating here then your ties to this place are very tenuous indeed. I'm always sad to see someone leave, but if that's your decision, good luck and godspeed.

Also, I am not a liar and my dog is far from ugly.

Nope! Good lookin' pup!

Good luck and take care.