Not draft dodger....war resister....yeah right

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boofus said:
If there WAS a draft there may be a reason for conscientious objection. Because the enlistee was conscripted and forced to do something he may not believe in.

Of course it does not apply to that coward because our military is voluntary. Those people signed the papers, they stood there and took the oath, they happily took the taxpayers' money knowing full well they were being trained to fight. There is a better word for those people that fled to Canada --> DESERTER.

U.S. History 101

There was a draft for the Vietnam war, and these men would have been constripts rather than volunteers. These men never took any oath, they never recieved training, and if drafted they quite possibly would have been sent to die in the worst S-hole in the world. For the same reasons that I respect Vietnam veterans for fighting such a war I also moderate* my criticism for people who refused to do so.

*note that I said *moderate* rather than silence, these are people that our nation is better off without and they have nothing to be proud of whatsoever, and frankly if they ever set foot on American soil I think they should be imprisoned.
 
Of course it does not apply to that coward because our military is voluntary. Those people signed the papers, they stood there and took the oath, they happily took the taxpayers' money knowing full well they were being trained to fight. There is a better word for those people that fled to Canada --> DESERTER.
To all those attacking this statement: I think he's thinking the article was about a recent event, ie someone fleeing the current war in Iraq.
 
I may be in the minority of Vietnam war vets in saying this, but I have no problem with the folks that ran away. Whether from outright cowardice or strong anti-war convictions, they cause me no lost sleep. Because they have to live with themselves and their respective reasons for their behavior. Many will, undoubtedly go to their graves wishing they had behaved differently. Others will successfully rationalize their behavior, whether caused by cowardice or conviction. I stipulate one consequence of their choice: they have renounced any right to ever benefit from the good things America offers our citizens.

TC
 
Leatherneck said:
I may be in the minority of Vietnam war vets in saying this, but I have no problem with the folks that ran away. Whether from outright cowardice or strong anti-war convictions, they cause me no lost sleep. Because they have to live with themselves and their respective reasons for their behavior. Many will, undoubtedly go to their graves wishing they had behaved differently. Others will successfully rationalize their behavior, whether caused by cowardice or conviction. I stipulate one consequence of their choice: they have renounced any right to ever benefit from the good things America offers our citizens.

TC

First off, let me preface this by saying that I did my twenty, and would be the first to volunteer to defend my country again. But Vietnam (and Iraq) had nothing at all to do with defending our country, so why should anyone have to renounce their rights because they didn't want to be sacrificed in the name of politics? I'd be willing to be that if you could ask any of the 58,000, you'd get a similar answer.

Then there's the 13th Amendment's prohibition against involuntary servitude.
 
I am getting a bigger picture regarding anti war protestors and war resisters.

First of all I want to thank all of you that served.

My main problem with the guy in the story is the fact he calls himself courageous. I don't buy it.

I tried to join the army when I was 18 but my parents convinced me to wait until I had finished college so I could go in as an officer.
later I was still gung ho with the idea but came down with type I diabetes when I was 21 which pretty much nixed the idea of joining the military.

I still feel guilty that I'm not over there in Iraq right now serving my county like my Grandfather and father did in WWII and Vietnam respectively. My dad often tells me not to feel guilty because he went to war so I wouldn't have to.
He suffers tremendously from PTSD and osteo-arthrits from too many bad parachute landings and helicopter jumps even so he wishes he was in Iraq right now doing his job as a solider.

As you can see I come from a totally different perspective regarding the military and serving our country.

I do appreciate however the insight and exposure to other points of view on this subect.
 
Moparmike said:
Ok, there must be something I am not understanding. IF you have not yet been called up for the draft that is on, can't you just avoid being a ground-pounder in the Army or Marines by joining the Navy, Coast Guard, or Air Force? Surely being a flyboy, coastie, or squid would get you out of a vast majority of the 'free-flying lead' zones...:confused:


At least that is what I have thought about doing if they ever start a draft again. I don't have the knees, back, or the mental discipline to be on the pointy end of the stick 24/7. As much as some may dispise REMF's, I think I could sleep at night being a REMF fiddling with computers on some TinCan somewhere...
At the time I received my draft notice, the waiting list for the Navy was 18 months. The waiting list for the Air Force was similar. For the Coast Guard it was about 4 years. The induction notice gave me, IIRC, 30 days.

Besides, what part of "conscientious objector" don't you understand? If you are opposed to war (in general, or A war in particular), how does it further your objection to enlist in the Air Force rather than be drafted into the Army?
 
I still feel guilty that I'm not over there in Iraq right now serving my county like my Grandfather and father did in WWII and Vietnam respectively. My dad often tells me not to feel guilty because he went to war so I wouldn't have to

Well, I'm a lot older than you, so my perspective is indeed quite different.

I will say this though, "guilt" is not a particularly good reason for joining the military or fighting in a war. Oh, and there are many ways to serve your nation, to make contributions to your culture and society.

One last thing. The word "courage" means different things. It isn't always about gut-wrenching bravery in the face of an invading enemy. It's a quality of spirit that can mean personal sacrifice on different levels. It's about doing something from the heart. Sometimes, one is a coward because he or she doesn't live out one's convictions in the face of other's convictions.

FWIW
 
jsalcedo said:
My main problem with the guy in the story is the fact he calls himself courageous. I don't buy it.
You don't understand courage.

Physical courage is one thing. Moral courage is another. When pushed, I submitted to the system. I had the physical courage to go where I didn't believe we should be.

Because I did NOT have the moral courage to face the inevitable consequences of not going. I was not willing to go to prison. I was not willing to sacrifice the freedom to see my family at will.

By your criteria, I guess I must be "better" than those who went to Canada, because I had the courage to go to Vietnam. That means you will never understand why, forty years later, I still regard my caving in to the system as an act of cowardice rather than an act of courage.
 
Hawkmoon said:
Those who were not alive and eligible for the draft during the Vietnam "conflict" should, IMHO, **** about this topic.

Because some of us weren't alive for the draft, we aren't allowed to have an opinion on the subject? Wow, how very Democratic of you. I suppose that you think anyone who supports the current war but was never in combat is a chickenhawk. Am I correct in this? Because your comment sure as hell makes you sound like that type.
 
svtruth said:
IIRC McNamara himself, in his memoirs, admitted we had no business being there.
That sure makes a difference to the 58,000.
Bingo!!! you said THAT name. Robert McNamara is a ..... (extremely non high road).... (more extremely non high road).

All I can say is that I hope to spit on this persons grave someday...
 
By your criteria, I guess I must be "better" than those who went to Canada, because I had the courage to go to Vietnam. That means you will never understand why, forty years later, I still regard my caving in to the system as an act of cowardice rather than an act of courage.

My indoctrination often precludes me from seeing and understanding the nuances associated with words like courage, bravery, duty, honor etc...

Most of us face challenges in our lives where we must make a decision that will affect or disrupt the safety of our physical body, our state of well being, and moral convictions. Ultimately we have to live with the results of these decisions for the rest our lives.

If I inadvertently insulted anyone by judging "Tofu man" I apologize.

I spend a lot of time in VFW halls with my father talking to veterans with legs, arms missing, and of course the emotional scars from wars fought recently and up to 50 and 60 years ago. This probably prejudices my attitudes and opinions about the folks who went to Canada.
 
Dannyboy said:
Because some of us weren't alive for the draft, we aren't allowed to have an opinion on the subject? Wow, how very Democratic of you. I suppose that you think anyone who supports the current war but was never in combat is a chickenhawk. Am I correct in this? Because your comment sure as hell makes you sound like that type.
Oh, you're allowed to have an opinion. But along with the right to have (and to express) an opinion comes a responsibility to at least ascertain basic facts before forming and expressing an opinion. Like the old saying, "Be sure brain is engaged before putting mouth in gear."

This thread includes statements about the Vietnam era made by people who weren't even alive at the time, who didn't even know that therewas a draft in place during the Vietnam "conflict," who are categorizing as cowards people who made a very painful and conscientious decision. Such people really should shut up, not because they don't have a right to express an opinion, but because they haven't taken the minimal effort required to get a clue what the discussion is really about.
 
I spend a lot of time in VFW halls with my father talking to veterans with legs, arms missing, and of course the emotional scars from wars fought recently and up to 50 and 60 years ago. This probably prejudices my attitudes and opinions about the folks who went to Canada.

Could it be that the first duty of a man is to himself, to his friends and family and only secondarily to his government or country? In that case, avoiding the draft would be a smarter AND more ethical decision than going along out of fear of the consequences for failing to comply.
 
In my opinion there will always be a great divide between those that went to Vietnam and those that did not.

Those that did not serve in Vietnam seem to want to explain their circumstance decades after the event.

For myself there’s no requirement to rationalize or seek moral superiority.

Some one recently asked me about my thoughts on the subject as it had affected my life. My reply was this:

I do not know why that I survived and others perished for I was no better than they. If death is an act of random selection I do not understand or comprehend it. I do not have the power to bring those who died back to the living but I do have the power of remembrance and honoring their sacrifice.

USMC 1964-1968
 
Most of my friends who had gone to Vietnam don't like to talk about it. At most, they talk about what they did but seldom about why.
 
jsalcedo said:
NELSON, British Columbia, Nov. 19, 2005 — Nestled in the mountains of British Columbia, the tiny city of Nelson seems lost in time — but amid the organic food, marijuana and easy-going attitudes is one of the Vietnam War's lingering wounds, freshly opened by a recent effort to build a monument to the Vietnam-era "war resisters" who live there.

An estimated 125,000 Americans fled to Canada in the 1960s and '70s to avoid the Vietnam War military draft, according to the American Veterans of Foreign Wars. About half returned to the United States when President Carter granted them amnesty in 1977.


But decades after fleeing the draft, many of those men still live north of the border — including a sizable community in Nelson — and say they still have no regrets about what they did.

Jeff Mock, an American who fled to Canada during Vietnam, does not call himself a draft dodger.

"I would say more I'm a war resister," says Mock, who now runs a tofu business in Nelson. "I firmly believe that wars will end when men refuse to fight."

Northwestern University professor John Hagan wrote a book about this largely anonymous group of former U.S. residents in Canada.

"This is the largest modern political out-migration from the United States," he says. "And it really stands out."


Monument Idea Sparks Hate Mail

That is one reason some Nelson residents decided that, 30 years later, they were a group worth remembering with a large, bronze monument of a Canadian with outstretched arms greeting a man and a woman.

Townspeople and officials alike thought it was perfect — until word trickled south across the border. The American Veterans of Foreign Wars was outraged.

Nelson Mayor Dave Elliot was flooded with hate mail.

"I got myself into big trouble by saying I think it's a good idea," Elliot said. "Yes, I do think it's a good idea."

The hate mail argued otherwise.

"This is nothing more than a slap in the face to me and all Americans," Elliot read from one of the letters. "These men are not heroes, but they are cowards."

Organizers decided not to build the monument. But the town will hold Canada's first-ever gathering of American war resisters next year. People here hope it will serve as a homecoming to a group of men who've spent the last three decades coming to grips with a decision that changed their lives forever.


'No Regrets'

Ernest Heckanin, an artist and writer, has now lived in Canada longer than he lived in the United States. He remains bitter about the country he left and has never gotten over the war he wouldn't fight in.

"I see Iraq as just a continuation of policy that began in Vietnam," Heckanin says.

Jim Holland left everything he knew back in Texas more than 30 years ago, and says he has "no regrets, absolutely not."

Holland adds that he is not a coward.

"When your own ethics dictate that you'd separate yourself from your friends and your family, that's not cowardice," he says. "That's standing up for what you believe in.

Nowadays, Holland says, "I'm very, very proud to be Canadian."

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1325339

I hope that they have sufficient yellow paint. They'll need it to put the stripe upon the statue's back, as it soaks through that matted mess of long hippie hair!:fire: :cuss: The craven cowardly ba$#@%ds!

I entered in the U.S. Navy's "delayed entry" program before I ever left High School in 1973!

Support your nation, support your family, NEVER back down in the face of danger! My father survived the December 7th, 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor! They extracted a chunk of Japanese bomb fragments from his head, and shipped him out to the fleet.

Joining the Navy during an 'unpopular war" was the least that I could do! My country, all the way! :cool:

Scott
 
Let me preface this by saying it's coming from a chick who doesn't even remember a draft. My father had some kind of student deferment, and we'd left SVN to its fate before I was born. The closest I ever came to the draft in my teenage years was thinking the ROTC boys looked kinda cute in their uniforms. :)

That said... I gotta agree with the protesting vets that building a monement to those who fled to Cananda is at best a poor idea.. at worst patently insulting.

I can understand moral objections to the war. I can understand moral objections to the draft. Heck, were I a draftable feller in that place and time I might well have done the same, I can't say... but I'd not have had any illusions that it was a noble thing to do.

Out and out honoring those who'd rather flee their country than serve it doesn't seem right to me.

-K

(And thanks to all of you who did make that hard choice and go. God Bless you guys. )
 
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Kaylee said:
(And thanks to all of you who did make that hard choice and go. Gob Bless you guys. )
Thanks, but if it's all the same to you I'd prefer to be blessed by a Marine or a Green Beret. :neener:

Remember the words of the dyslexic atheist: "There is no dog."
 
Could it be that the first duty of a man is to himself, to his friends and family and only secondarily to his government or country? In that case, avoiding the draft would be a smarter AND more ethical decision than going along out of fear of the consequences for failing to comply.

Abandoning friends and family like the man in the article makes me believe he was worried about his own hide first and foremost.

Muhammed Ali stuck by his convictions and went to prison almost ruining
his boxing career in the process.

We are very lucky however to have many outstanding inviduals who have the protection and well being of our country high on their list of priorities.

Where would this nation be if everyone acted solely on self interest?
 
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