Not legal to put extended mag tube on Benelli M2 or M4?
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rodinal220
Member
Benellis are foreign made semi-auto shotguns.922r only allows for one "evil" feature.Remove the pistol grip stock and attach the conventional stock and you can have the extended mag tube.Most guys who shoot 3-gun do this to get the extra capacity and most do not like the PG stocks anyway.
earlthegoat2
Member
I would bet they could sell a lot more guns if they dropped the full PG stock and went with straight capacity.
Quiet
Member
Fed 922r come into play on imported semi-auto shotguns with a magazine capacity greater than 5 rounds.
JoGusto
Member
You gotta be careful...
Yea, this 922(r) thing is pretty ridiculous. You can buy a Remington or modify it to hold more than 5 shells, but because the Benelli is imported, it's a serious Federal offense to do so (or so we keep hearing).
And, you can't even rely upon the BATF to give a consistent reading on how many of the "magical/evil" 922(r) parts are in the Benelli. I've seen on the internet two letters alleging to be from Sterling Nixon, Chief, Firearms Technology Branch, BATF, alternately putting the magic parts count at either 11 or 13, and in both cases, not enumerating the gas piston(s), which, of course, we know are there.
Is there a sear? I don't have my parts list handy, but that's potentially another part that Mr. Nixon has overlooked... is the count really 14, or 15? Does anybody really get prosecuted under this statute if you aren't making AK's in your garage for sale to the local criminal element?
Some seem to strongly feel that 922(r) prosecutions aren't publicised because people cop to a lesser charge rather than risk a Federal case. I really have no idea, nor have I seen any convincing data or sources to support or rebut this argument.
In retrospect, I should have opted for a domestically-made shotgun for HD so I wouldn't have to worry about ridiculous baloney like this. I sure as heck don't want to jeopardize myself legally just to increase my capacity +2 with a mag tube extension or full-length replacement tube...
Yea, this 922(r) thing is pretty ridiculous. You can buy a Remington or modify it to hold more than 5 shells, but because the Benelli is imported, it's a serious Federal offense to do so (or so we keep hearing).
And, you can't even rely upon the BATF to give a consistent reading on how many of the "magical/evil" 922(r) parts are in the Benelli. I've seen on the internet two letters alleging to be from Sterling Nixon, Chief, Firearms Technology Branch, BATF, alternately putting the magic parts count at either 11 or 13, and in both cases, not enumerating the gas piston(s), which, of course, we know are there.
Is there a sear? I don't have my parts list handy, but that's potentially another part that Mr. Nixon has overlooked... is the count really 14, or 15? Does anybody really get prosecuted under this statute if you aren't making AK's in your garage for sale to the local criminal element?
Some seem to strongly feel that 922(r) prosecutions aren't publicised because people cop to a lesser charge rather than risk a Federal case. I really have no idea, nor have I seen any convincing data or sources to support or rebut this argument.
In retrospect, I should have opted for a domestically-made shotgun for HD so I wouldn't have to worry about ridiculous baloney like this. I sure as heck don't want to jeopardize myself legally just to increase my capacity +2 with a mag tube extension or full-length replacement tube...
JoGusto
Member
Is Rodinal correct?
I seem to recall that any shotgun holding more than 5 shells is a non-sporting arm and thus prohibited from being assembled from imported parts. I don't think the pistol grip has anything to do with it.
Check this out: http://home.comcast.net/~navy87guy/home/922r.html
Oh, and I found out... the max sentence for violation of 18 USC 922(r) is 5 years.
I seem to recall that any shotgun holding more than 5 shells is a non-sporting arm and thus prohibited from being assembled from imported parts. I don't think the pistol grip has anything to do with it.
Check this out: http://home.comcast.net/~navy87guy/home/922r.html
Oh, and I found out... the max sentence for violation of 18 USC 922(r) is 5 years.
Runningman
Member
Depends on when it was imported, Benelli imported M1 Super 90 shotguns with a extended magazine tube before the Bush 1989 importation ban. Don't have to worry about them if they were imported before the 1989 ban. This is why pre Bush ban imported semi auto rifles and shotguns are much more desirable.
rodinal220
Member
Per the BATFE web page FAQs:
O8) Does the expiration of the SAW ban change laws regarding assembly of nonsporting shotguns and semiautomatic rifles from imported parts? [Back]
No. The provisions of section 922(r) of the GCA and the regulations in 27 CFR 478.39 regarding assembly of non-sporting shotguns and semiautomatic rifles from imported parts still apply.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#o3
Further info from the federal laws:
Finally, the GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 922(r), specifically states the following:
“It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or
any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under
the…[GCA]…Section 925(d)(3)…as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to
sporting purposes….”
Also, 27 C.F.R. § 478.39 states—
“…(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the
imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from
importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to
sporting purposes…..
2
(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:
(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed
manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any
department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or (2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun
for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Director under the provisions of
[§478.151(formerly 178.151)]; or (3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported
into or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the replacement of any
part of such firearm.
(c) For purposes of this section, the term imported parts [tabulated below] are:
(1) Frames, receivers, receiver
castings, forgings, or castings.
(2) Barrels.
(3) Barrel extensions.
(4) Mounting blocks (trunnions).
(5) Muzzle attachments.
(6) Bolts.
(7) Bolt carriers.
(8) Operating rods.
(9) Gas pistons.
(10) Trigger housings.
(11) Triggers.
(12) Hammers.
(13) Sears.
(14) Disconnectors.
(15) Buttstocks.
(16) Pistol grips.
(17) Forearms, handguards.
(18) Magazine bodies.
(19) Followers.
(20) Floor plates.
As a result of a 1989 study by the U.S. Treasury Department regarding the importability of
certain firearms, an import ban was placed on military-style firearms. This ban included not only
military-type firearms, but also extended to firearms with certain features that were considered to
be “nonsporting.”
Among such nonsporting features were the ability to accept a detachable magazine;
folding/telescoping stocks; separate pistol grips; and the ability to accept a bayonet, flash
suppressors, bipods, grenade launchers, and night sights.
Please note that the foreign parts kits that are sold through commercial means are usually cut up
machineguns, such as Russian AK-47 types, British Sten types, etc. Generally, an acceptable
semiautomatic copy of a machinegun is one that has been significantly redesigned. The receiver
must be incapable of accepting the original fire-control components that are designed to permit
full automatic fire. The method of operation should employ a closed-bolt firing design that
incorporates an inertia-type firing pin within the bolt assembly.
3
Further, an acceptably redesigned semiautomatic copy of nonsporting firearm must be limited to
using less than 10 of the imported parts listed in 27 CFR § 478.39(c). Otherwise, it is considered
to be assembled into a nonsporting configuration per the provisions of 18 U.S.C. 925(d)(3) and is
thus a violation of § 922(r).
Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal
Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the
firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also,
the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully
transferred in the future.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/building_a_firearm.pdf
O8) Does the expiration of the SAW ban change laws regarding assembly of nonsporting shotguns and semiautomatic rifles from imported parts? [Back]
No. The provisions of section 922(r) of the GCA and the regulations in 27 CFR 478.39 regarding assembly of non-sporting shotguns and semiautomatic rifles from imported parts still apply.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#o3
Further info from the federal laws:
Finally, the GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 922(r), specifically states the following:
“It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or
any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under
the…[GCA]…Section 925(d)(3)…as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to
sporting purposes….”
Also, 27 C.F.R. § 478.39 states—
“…(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the
imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from
importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to
sporting purposes…..
2
(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:
(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed
manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any
department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or (2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun
for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Director under the provisions of
[§478.151(formerly 178.151)]; or (3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported
into or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the replacement of any
part of such firearm.
(c) For purposes of this section, the term imported parts [tabulated below] are:
(1) Frames, receivers, receiver
castings, forgings, or castings.
(2) Barrels.
(3) Barrel extensions.
(4) Mounting blocks (trunnions).
(5) Muzzle attachments.
(6) Bolts.
(7) Bolt carriers.
(8) Operating rods.
(9) Gas pistons.
(10) Trigger housings.
(11) Triggers.
(12) Hammers.
(13) Sears.
(14) Disconnectors.
(15) Buttstocks.
(16) Pistol grips.
(17) Forearms, handguards.
(18) Magazine bodies.
(19) Followers.
(20) Floor plates.
As a result of a 1989 study by the U.S. Treasury Department regarding the importability of
certain firearms, an import ban was placed on military-style firearms. This ban included not only
military-type firearms, but also extended to firearms with certain features that were considered to
be “nonsporting.”
Among such nonsporting features were the ability to accept a detachable magazine;
folding/telescoping stocks; separate pistol grips; and the ability to accept a bayonet, flash
suppressors, bipods, grenade launchers, and night sights.
Please note that the foreign parts kits that are sold through commercial means are usually cut up
machineguns, such as Russian AK-47 types, British Sten types, etc. Generally, an acceptable
semiautomatic copy of a machinegun is one that has been significantly redesigned. The receiver
must be incapable of accepting the original fire-control components that are designed to permit
full automatic fire. The method of operation should employ a closed-bolt firing design that
incorporates an inertia-type firing pin within the bolt assembly.
3
Further, an acceptably redesigned semiautomatic copy of nonsporting firearm must be limited to
using less than 10 of the imported parts listed in 27 CFR § 478.39(c). Otherwise, it is considered
to be assembled into a nonsporting configuration per the provisions of 18 U.S.C. 925(d)(3) and is
thus a violation of § 922(r).
Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal
Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the
firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also,
the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully
transferred in the future.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/building_a_firearm.pdf
rodinal220
Member
I'll give you folks the readers digest version.The Benelli or other FOREIGN made SEMI-AUTO shotgun or rifle can only have ONE "evil" feature per 922r.
Folding/collapsible stock:Sure no problem,just cannot have a PG or mag tube over 5 rounds at the same time.
+5 mag tube:Sure no problem,no PG or folding/collapsible stock at the same time.
PG:Sure no problem,no collapsible/folding stock or +5 mag tube at the same time.
You cant have your cake and eat it too;unless........
Someone starts making enough USA made components to bring the parts count up on the Benelli to have the "bad" stuff made legal.
Folding/collapsible stock:Sure no problem,just cannot have a PG or mag tube over 5 rounds at the same time.
+5 mag tube:Sure no problem,no PG or folding/collapsible stock at the same time.
PG:Sure no problem,no collapsible/folding stock or +5 mag tube at the same time.
You cant have your cake and eat it too;unless........
Someone starts making enough USA made components to bring the parts count up on the Benelli to have the "bad" stuff made legal.
rodinal220
Member
Today 06:50 AM
Runningman Quote:
The Benelli with extended mag tube would not be 922r compliant?
Depends on when it was imported, Benelli imported M1 Super 90 shotguns with a extended magazine tube before the Bush 1989 importation ban. Don't have to worry about them if they were imported before the 1989 ban. This is why pre Bush ban imported semi auto rifles and shotguns are much more desirable
RM is correct.Earlier HK imported M1S90s were made before the 922r took effect and are exempt.Good luck convincing overzelous LEO type pinching you cause they dont know the difference.
Runningman Quote:
The Benelli with extended mag tube would not be 922r compliant?
Depends on when it was imported, Benelli imported M1 Super 90 shotguns with a extended magazine tube before the Bush 1989 importation ban. Don't have to worry about them if they were imported before the 1989 ban. This is why pre Bush ban imported semi auto rifles and shotguns are much more desirable
RM is correct.Earlier HK imported M1S90s were made before the 922r took effect and are exempt.Good luck convincing overzelous LEO type pinching you cause they dont know the difference.
Runningman
Member
Not to hard to prove on 1951 and later Italian guns. Since Italy's National Proof House stamps all Italian manufactured firearms after proofing with a date code.
Runningman
Member
You would think but not necessarily. A good example of this was the USAF selecting a EADS Airbus A330 plane made in France with some minor finish work done in the US as a refueling tanker in 2008. Before the contact was voided.
627PCFan
Member
Have any of us Benelli owners sued the government for discrimination of good taste?
orphanedcowboy
Member
Not that this is HD related, but every February we hunt Snow Geese with 8 shot Benelli's. We have been checked by the feds and not one complaint yet. Heck, some of the guys had special mag extenders made to get 11 or 12 rounds in their ground rakers.
Last edited:
Quiet
Member
The H&K imported Benelli M-1 Super 90 and M-3 Super 90 that were imported into the USA before 922r went into effect and considered "grandfathered in" are marked H&K on the reciever.
JoGusto
Member
Rodinal isn't correct yet AFAIK...
Rodinal, you threw out a lot of text from the USC and the CFR, citing the relevant sections, but the critical piece that is missing is the definition of "non-sporting".... the actual text of the regulations cited does *NOT* include that definition. The statutes give the Attorney General (and hence his minions the BATF) the authority to determine what is "non-sporting".
There is some confusion about this, as the Assault Weapons Ban defined an assault weapon as being, among other things, "...Any semiautomatic shotgun that [can] hold more than 5 rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine..." (27CFR478.40(b)(5)). So, the LE versions of the Benelli, having mag caps > 5 rounds, were assault weapons.
AWB is no longer in effect, but import restrictions still are, and so the definition of "non-sporting" is still relevant with respect to 18 CFR 922(r).
I just don't see anything in the statute that corresponds to your "readers digest" statement that "The Benelli or other FOREIGN made SEMI-AUTO shotgun or rifle can only have ONE "evil" feature per 922r". Show me where it says that, specifically. I have searched high and low for an authoritative source (not some blog or online forum, but an official written statement of some kind) and cannot find one. Some website authors claim a concise written statement of "non-sporting" does not exist, and therein lies the problem!
However, you are correct on one count: 27 CFR 478.39 does say this about pre-ban weapons:
27 CFR 478.39 ...(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:...(3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the replacement of any part of such firearm.
So if you have a pre-ban Benelli, you can go ahead and make otherwise legal mods and ignore the fact that the shotgun is imported, for the purposes of Title 18 of the United States Code, section 922(r).
As to anecdotal evidence that extended magazines are "ok," consider this:
In the US, federal law prohibits shotguns from being capable of holding more than three shells including the round in the chamber when used for hunting migratory waterfowl such as ducks and geese. --Wikipedia
Contrast with the story from OrphanedCowboy:
In the end, I'm still left with the words of Sterling Nixon, BATF Firearms Technology Branch, in his letter regarding the Benelli M1S90, wherein he says
I still have to conclude that extending the magazine capacity of a non-pre-ban Benelli violates 18 USC 922(r), unless you do it with fewer than 11 of the "compliance" parts, and use US-made parts for the remainder. Whether you will get prosecuted for it is a different story. Is it worth five years in the slammer and a lifetime ban on gun ownership to find out?
Disclaimer: not an attorney, not legal advice, just trying to apply "common sense" to interpreting this law. Consult an attorney if you have questions.
What we are dealing with here is the 1968 Gun Control Act. Thanks for the Reader's Digest version... albeit not correct.
Rodinal, you threw out a lot of text from the USC and the CFR, citing the relevant sections, but the critical piece that is missing is the definition of "non-sporting".... the actual text of the regulations cited does *NOT* include that definition. The statutes give the Attorney General (and hence his minions the BATF) the authority to determine what is "non-sporting".
There is some confusion about this, as the Assault Weapons Ban defined an assault weapon as being, among other things, "...Any semiautomatic shotgun that [can] hold more than 5 rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine..." (27CFR478.40(b)(5)). So, the LE versions of the Benelli, having mag caps > 5 rounds, were assault weapons.
AWB is no longer in effect, but import restrictions still are, and so the definition of "non-sporting" is still relevant with respect to 18 CFR 922(r).
I just don't see anything in the statute that corresponds to your "readers digest" statement that "The Benelli or other FOREIGN made SEMI-AUTO shotgun or rifle can only have ONE "evil" feature per 922r". Show me where it says that, specifically. I have searched high and low for an authoritative source (not some blog or online forum, but an official written statement of some kind) and cannot find one. Some website authors claim a concise written statement of "non-sporting" does not exist, and therein lies the problem!
However, you are correct on one count: 27 CFR 478.39 does say this about pre-ban weapons:
27 CFR 478.39 ...(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:...(3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the replacement of any part of such firearm.
So if you have a pre-ban Benelli, you can go ahead and make otherwise legal mods and ignore the fact that the shotgun is imported, for the purposes of Title 18 of the United States Code, section 922(r).
As to anecdotal evidence that extended magazines are "ok," consider this:
In the US, federal law prohibits shotguns from being capable of holding more than three shells including the round in the chamber when used for hunting migratory waterfowl such as ducks and geese. --Wikipedia
Contrast with the story from OrphanedCowboy:
Hmmm.... does this prove anything at all? Interesting, and certainly reasonable (magazine capacity restrictions are stupid), but not a legal analysis.
In the end, I'm still left with the words of Sterling Nixon, BATF Firearms Technology Branch, in his letter regarding the Benelli M1S90, wherein he says
Semiautomatic shotgun, capacity more than 5 shells, non-sporting, import prohibited. Definition of non-sporting is at the whim of the A.G. and the BATF. It is not defined as some clearly-stated combination of features, as you claim.
I still have to conclude that extending the magazine capacity of a non-pre-ban Benelli violates 18 USC 922(r), unless you do it with fewer than 11 of the "compliance" parts, and use US-made parts for the remainder. Whether you will get prosecuted for it is a different story. Is it worth five years in the slammer and a lifetime ban on gun ownership to find out?
Disclaimer: not an attorney, not legal advice, just trying to apply "common sense" to interpreting this law. Consult an attorney if you have questions.
Runningman
Member
That is basically how I understand it. Except I would insert SEMI auto Benelli and add the words except LEO.
Also will add there is a reason Benelli stop selling semi auto shotguns with extended magazine tube to non LEO post Bush ban. It was not legal under federal law. At least that is the what I've always understood.
I've posted this already here but it is worth repeating pre Bush Ban imported semi auto rifles and shotguns are much more desirable with 922R in effect.
rodinal220
Member
"Rodinal isn't correct yet AFAIK..."
Um,yes I am,unfortunately.Don't agree with the law,its stupid,but it is currently enforced.
JoGusto,if you go back and employ some of that common sense.Everything is in front of you,why you keep misinterpreting the obvious is puzzling.
You cannot assemble an imported foreign made parts kit unless it has the proper amount of USA made parts.The AK47/AKM semi auto clones are good examples of 922r.Most of these use Tapco fire control parts,gas piston and USA made furniture to increase the USA parts count to beat 922r.Why do the manufacturers do this,because its the law.
Benelli when they first imported the M4 it had a non-collapsing version of the actual collapsible military issue stock.Now the non-collapsible version isn't even offered,its either the PG or standard stock.Benelli stopped selling +2 extenders openly to the public.
The readers digest I offered to folks is 100% correct.
JoGusto I offer this.Why don't you take your Benelli M1S90,M2,M3,M4 and put a PG stock on and a +5 mag tube and walk into your local BATFE office and see what they say.Don't bring your tooth brush,they provide those.
Um,yes I am,unfortunately.Don't agree with the law,its stupid,but it is currently enforced.
JoGusto,if you go back and employ some of that common sense.Everything is in front of you,why you keep misinterpreting the obvious is puzzling.
You cannot assemble an imported foreign made parts kit unless it has the proper amount of USA made parts.The AK47/AKM semi auto clones are good examples of 922r.Most of these use Tapco fire control parts,gas piston and USA made furniture to increase the USA parts count to beat 922r.Why do the manufacturers do this,because its the law.
Benelli when they first imported the M4 it had a non-collapsing version of the actual collapsible military issue stock.Now the non-collapsible version isn't even offered,its either the PG or standard stock.Benelli stopped selling +2 extenders openly to the public.
The readers digest I offered to folks is 100% correct.
JoGusto I offer this.Why don't you take your Benelli M1S90,M2,M3,M4 and put a PG stock on and a +5 mag tube and walk into your local BATFE office and see what they say.Don't bring your tooth brush,they provide those.
mooseracing
Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2009
- Messages
- 26
You must be in one of the states that don't have the 3 round maximum for waterfowl...
Gunnerpalace
Member
I say we go the Miller route, eg used by the military this rule should not apply.With one major difference, someone actually shows up on the court date.
I hope I made sense.
JoGusto
Member
Rodinal, sir, show me the black letter law or regulation which supports your thesis that:
Show me the regulation. Show me the words. I agree the law is stupid. I don't agree with your very specific interpretation of it. With the greatest respect for you personally, I must at this point say that I believe you may be confusing various state assault-ban regs with the provisions of 18 USC 922. I am willing to be convinced that I am wrong and you are correct, but so far, all you have done is repeated your conclusions without providing the actual black letter law citation to support your interpretation. Can you find the regulation that says what you say?
That's all I am asking ... show me where is says something about the "more than one evil feature...". Continuing to say that I am misinterpreting the obvious is at this point disingenuous, if you don't mind my saying so. Not really meaning to cause offense but I don't think you've made your point and I feel like you are trying to buffalo me into submission without being able to actually muster the evidence which supports your position.
Again, if you are right, that's better for us semi-auto Benelli lovers, but it would be tragic to mislead people into believing they are OK if in fact they are not. That's what's at stake here, lest we forget.
As far as the pre-ban grandfathering in of certain semi-auto Benellis, I agree that Runningman is correct. That is clearly the black-letter law of 922 et seq.
david_the_greek
Member
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- Nov 2, 2005
- Messages
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my father used to have an extended magazine m3 super 90 with the nice pistol grip/full stock. Actually bought it from a police officers personal collection. Boy I wish I had he has it still... : (
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