Now they're saying we can't even trust the military with ammo?

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When I was in in '99, there was no safe gun handling taught at all. It really scared the crap out of me to see guys running around playing with their M-16's as though they were toys.
A rifle isn't a toy.
I tried to set them straight, but what did I know?
I was just some dumb hick redneck. The fact that I had been shooting since I was 4 had no bearing.

But, they should at least have a couple of loaded mags in their pouches so they could respond if needed.
Running around with an empty rifle is nuts.
Why don't they just give them brooms?
 
The recuits of H Company, 2nd Recruit Training Bn., Marine Corps Recruit Depot, Parris Island, however, learned in boot camp that we were not to point our weapons at anything we did not want to destroy.

I'm VERY glad to hear that! It sure isn't that way everywhere.

There can be a lot of difference between one training company and the next, too. At least in the Army. My CO was a 1st Lt. and it was his first command. (He got his railroad tracks somewhere toward the end of my training cycle.) He wisely let his NCOs call most of the shots. So the training we had (as compared to infantry companies around us) was a throwback to earlier, tougher days. For example, my first taste of Basic Training (after all the rigamarole of the REception Center) was a bunch of screaming maniacs yelling at us like we were their worst enemies, and hustling us to the top of a small hill for 45 minutes of fast paced duffel bag drill. Then 20 minutes of paperwork, then another 30 of duffle bag drill.

Near the end of our cycle, a new company came in to start their training next door. We could see them get the initiation treatment.

About 5 minutes of front leaning rest postion. :rolleyes:


I hope your experience was representative of the whole Corp.

And I like your attitude!
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Sooooooooo let me get this straight.

They're going to let all the soldiers get used to the idea of carrying around an unloaded "Safe" weapon which will most likely cause laziness when it comes to safety awareness.

Then when fighting begins they'll all be provided ammo and be expected to switch back to safe handling? :rolleyes:
 
As I recall, the soldiers standing watch on the USS Cole spotted the raft, but as they had no ammunition... well..

Ugh.
 
I went through basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, in 1999. The weapons training we got was only rudimentary at best. I didn't learn "Rule Three" until I got home, and found out about the four rules on my own.

It's not the soldiers' fault, and everyone makes mistakes from time to time (I embarrassed myself badly during a veterans day 21 gun salute w/ blanks once).

The blame here lies on the Brass, as usual. They don't want to give the troops proper weapons training and range time, they don't want to take a hint from Col. Cooper and teach the four rules, and they don't want to bother with making sure their troops are proficient with their weapons. Sometimes if individual soldiers try to speak up, they get hit with the "if the Army does it it must be right" mentality that the guys in the pentagon love.

So, they send them into hostile territory without ammunition. It's disgraceful.

The solution, of course, is to revamp the Army basic rifle marksmanship program, starting it off with the four rules of gun handling, then moving on to other things.
 
My basic training unit? Bravo Company, 35th Engineer BN. We did lots and lots of dry firing practice, balancing a dime on the front sight post (to ensure that we weren't jerking the trigger), but I never heard the four rules recited when I was there. Maybe they've changed it now.
 
I've seen so many troops on TV stick guns in each others faces that I would partially agree with this. Next time you watch the news look at how many times our guys point guns at each other.
 
When I refused to disarm

During my tour of duty in RVN, Class of 65/66 I was stationed in a maintence and supply unit in the First Infantry Division in the little town of Phouc Vinh. We had a commander that was a bit different from others I had served under and one of his decisions was almost to much to deal with.

One evening we were getting ready to have our chow and had brought our mess kits to the chow line in the old French fort we were staying in. It had started a light rain and we were somewhat miserable and hungry when a sniper across the river fired a few rounds over our heads. This got the desired effect and we would not see chow for some time.

We all went to our positions at the wall or in the bunkers,both finished and unfinished. We all charged our M14s and placed the safety on and kept the muzzle up and away from each other. We waited for instructions and during that time the sniper cracked off a couple more rounds to let us know he was still around.

The first sargeant came around with a M2 carbine with no magazine inserted and went to each man and asked them if their rifle was loaded. Upon hearing the affirmative,"Yes sargeant!" he informed them that the CO was ordering that the rifles be unloaded and made safe. Each person immediately unloaded and cleared the rifle they were holding.

He finally got to my position and gave me the CO's message. I answered in the affirmative and also asked if his carbine was loaded,which I could plainly see was not. He replied no it was not and that it was the CO's order to unload all weapons. I informed him that we were in a combat zone and were taking fire from someone on the other side of our wall,and NO, I would not unload in the face of the enemy. He just looked at me and continued his mission. A mission to disarm all members of our unit.

In about 6 or 8 minutes my platoon leader a 2nd Lt. fresh from OCS came over all crouched down and trying to look as small a target as possible. He squatted in front of me where i was sitting on a log and waiting for something to happen. He addressed me and asked me if my rifle was loaded and when I gave my affirmative reply and asked about his he replied no and the usual drivel about everyone being ordered to disarm. I told him that was a foolish order and one that I could not obey with an armed enemy out there shooting at us. I also explained that if we waited until the enemy was coming over the wall we might just be too late to load and fire.

He thought about what I said and then asked me this question. "What will it take for you to comply with the captains order?.......a derect order??" I looked at him for a few seconds and then replied,"Yes"!! He thought about it for a few seconds and said that he had never had to give a direct order before and I said that was a new one to me since I had never been given one either. He drew himself up about an inch to look more officious I guess, and said, "I hereby order you to unload your weapon and make it safe!" I looked at him and replied,"Yes Sir!" I then removed the magazine and placed it in my pouch, pulled back the operating rod handle and ejected the live round from the chamber, released the safety, pointed the rifle in a safe direction and pulled the trigger. I dropped the rifle to the ground and stated that, "I quit!.........if the VC come over the wire I will have to use my mess kit on them."

The LT gave me a baleful look and still crouched down, scurried away back to officer country.

All the other guys were somewhat shocked at what I had done but a few told me later that it took guts to do what they felt like doing. I merely wanted to point out that it was not a good plan to disarm troops while under fire. I knew how to load and carry a rifle safely and to use it if I had to.

Nothing further was said but the CO was never a person that I would rely on after that. He is the same CO that I mentioned in a previous reply on this thread that wanted to take all of our ammo and lock it in a buried Conex container in the middle of the fort. That plan never happened either since several of us found out about it and started a letter writing campaign to the POTUS, Sec. of Defense, Congress critters,wives,mothers and girlfriends etc. The letters were never mailed and the ammo was never removed from us either.

:cool:
 
This is truely sad. IMO everyone should have a loaded mag in gun but chamber empty if they can't handle firearms. If you are clerk/support you can either handle your rifle 24/7 or have it secured for you.
I have heard of too many family members who have stood guard duty with empty guns who had to steal ammo that they KNEW they would get into trouble with in order to have any.
I didn't mine if NG at airports had empty chambers. The mags should have been loaded.
 
The soldiers may be getting decent weapons training, but the safety part needs to be beaten into their heads more often. Not issueing ammo to soldiers is inexcusable and a complete cop-out.
 
Regarding the training for support personnel

We are just hearing this AM about the possibility that several soldiers from the 507th Maintenance Co from Ft. Bliss were captured and summarily executed by Iraquis. When I wrote the reply in this thread on page two, that is the reason I refused to disarm in Vietnam when our CO ordered us to unload our rifles while we under sniper fire in Vietnam during the Fall of 1965.

Traditionaly it seems that our support troops are shorted in their combat training and I for one spent a lot of time and my own money to keep up my own training since none of the units i was assigned to seemed to care enough to keep us proficient in small arms training.

I cannot stress enough that if you have a son or daughter in a support unit, that you see that they keep proficient in firearms use. If you have to take them to the range when they are on military leave or send them money so that they may go to a local firing range and practice during their off-duty time. My youngest son is 24 and he has gone regularly to a range to practice with a Beretta 92 such as he might use if he were to be drafted.
 
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