"Somehow it went off"

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Mainsail

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Washington Post
September 5, 2006
Pg. 17

To Reduce Accidents, Army Forges Closer Bond Between Soldiers, Rifles

By Michael Felberbaum, Associated Press

PETERSBURG, Va. -- In the early months of the war in Iraq, Army Spec. Paul J. Sturino was getting ready for guard duty one morning when another soldier accidentally fired a bullet into his neck.

"Somehow it went off," his mother, Christine Wetzel, said as she recounted the official reports documenting her 21-year-old son's death on Sept. 22, 2003.

The Army has begun taking steps to reduce accidental discharges through a new weapons immersion program fully implemented this year throughout the Army's 16 training facilities.

Sturino, assigned to the 101st Airborne Division based at Fort Campbell, Ky., was one of 21 soldiers killed by accidental discharges in the combat zones of Iraq and Afghanistan since 2003, according to the Army's Combat Readiness Center. Eighty-nine others were injured.

"Losing one U.S. soldier because of a negligent discharge or not handling the weapon right is one too many," said Col. Paul Fortune, commander of the 23rd Quartermaster Brigade at Fort Lee, near Petersburg.

Under the new program, "we put the weapon in the hands of the soldier as soon as possible to give them an opportunity to be familiar with how the weapon operates," Fortune said.

Soldiers receive their M-16 rifles -- and blank ammunition -- on the third day of training and keep it with them for the next six to 12 weeks, depending on the length of training. The only time they do not have their weapons is when they enter chapels or clinics, or when the rifles are checked in for the weekend.

It's part of the "train as you fight" mentality that the Army hopes will keep soldiers safe.

Soldiers such as Pvt. Kenneth Dykeman, 21, of Portland, Ore., carry their rifle to class and physical training and even have it nearby as they sleep. At night, Dykeman keeps his weapon under his mattress, with its magazine in his locker. "It helps you get closer to your weapon, know the characteristics, know what your rifle can do, so when you're out there in the field, you know how to keep yourself safe," Dykeman said.

The program is significantly reducing negligent discharges, said Col. Kevin A. Shwedo, director of operations, plans and training for the Army Accessions Command. The average company used to experience about five negligent discharges every four hours. Now, Shwedo said, "if you hear a single discharge, that's a lot."

Even in the training environment, soldiers are required to keep a round of ammunition in their chambers and clear their weapons before entering any building. Metal barrels filled with sand rest slanted on sandbags outside every building for soldiers to clear their weapons.

"We want to teach them that there is no such thing as the front line," Fortune said before checking weapons at random in the cafeteria.

Before, the only time soldiers at Fort Lee would see their weapons was when they practiced shooting. Commanders say the change also reflects the need for soldiers to be ready to engage in the military actions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It took the Army until early 2005 to "come up with enough horsepower" to implement the program, Shwedo said. Officials ran into roadblocks, including finding enough weapons, ammunition and supplies, as well as Cold War-era regulations against putting weapons on training bases, he said.

The program is part of the Army's new initiative to make training more relevant and apply lessons learned from troops coming back from deployment.
 
This has been policy for quite some time now, but the Washington Post thinks it's news? Today?

A day late and a dollar short.
 
Out of curiosity (not being military nor owning any EBR's), by "clear their weapon," I assume they mean point the weapon into the barrel (the safe direction while removing the magazine and the round in the chamber manually, right?

That is, they don't mean "drop the mag and then shoot a round into the sand." I would expect that to get noisy...
 
The average company used to experience about five negligent discharges every four hours.

Let me repeat that again.

The average company used to experience about five negligent discharges every four hours.

If that's true, or even remotely true (every four hours while on a live-fire range?), that's enormously scary, for a number of reasons. It can't possibly be true, can it?
 
I am not a Marine or Army bubba, but I have spent a LOT of range time with Marines and was taught to shoot a rifle by a Gunny who was a Marine Rifle Instructor.

Whenever we were told to "clear the weapon" it meant to remove the magazine, open the bolt, and visually and physically inspect the action to ensure that it is empty. The entire time you keep you finger OFF THE TRIGGER.

This took me all of 30 sec. to master and I wasn't even at boot camp.
 
All that I have ever been was just an Army Cadet (age 13-almost 19), and we all knew better than that too. Well, MOST of us did.
 
If that's true, or even remotely true (every four hours while on a live-fire range?), that's enormously scary, for a number of reasons. It can't possibly be true, can it?

I suspect that the classification of negligent discharge is pretty strict. Meaning that discharges that were aimed at a target downrange, yet happened prior to the command to fire even by the slightest amount, were still recorded as ND's. Perhaps even those that didn't stop as quickly after the command to cease are included.

Of course, to us the term makes you think of some wild shot, totally unplanned in any direction conceivable and it may not be that at all.
 
I went through Marine Corps Boot Camp in 1963 and during the first week of being there we were issued M-1's. Eventually, the M-1's were traded for M-14's which then became the standard issue and with which we qualified. We were trained constantly WITH our rifles. Close order drill, inspections, you name it, they all included our rifles. Every Marine, regardless of MOS, is a rifleman. In three years and three months of service, including the war zone of Vietnam, I was only aware of one "negligent" discharge and no "accidental" discharges.

Considering the number of "people" just being introduced to firearms because they are now in service to our nation, I think that the armed forces have a stellar record. With that many "newbies" there is bound to be an incident here and there however tragic one or two may be.

Although I am sure the Army's training regimen during the time I was in boot camp was slightly different than the Corps', I don't think that this "News" is monumental.

I am glad The Washington Post finally joined the world.
 
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Maybe they should keep a blank round in the chamber. That way, if someone has their finger in the wrong place, the gun will still discharge, but there will be no bullet flying around.
 
Maybe they should keep a blank round in the chamber.
No, I don't think you want to make any circumstance where soldiers think it's safe to point the gun at a buddy and pull the trigger. All they have to do is teach safety and then enforce it forever. Easy to do, that's what Sergeants are for.

A blank is generally a bad idea. If you shoot it, there's not enough gas pressure to cycle the action, and you don't want to install a blank firing adapter if you have real cartridges in the magazine. That would be another interesting phenomenon.

The casualties of AD/ND are sad and avoidable. Fortunately they're very few. Most AD/ND probably just sends the bullet "away". I wonder how many .223 inch holes are in the roofs of mess hall tents etc.

Regards.
 
Well, we never had this problem when i was in the active army... but i've noticed a disturbing trend.

Used to be, to clear the weapon, you put the muzzle in a safe place, or a clearing barrel, dropped the mag, pulled the charging handle back and visually checked for a round, then released the bolt and put it on safe.

Now, you visually check for a round, release the bolt, and PULL THE TRIGGER:cuss: :cuss:

Now I hear some people thinkin... "Hey fitz, it's ok... if they visually check it, they wont have an accident when they pull the trigger"

problem is, that is poor trigger discipline, and since they pull the trigger in a "safe" place, i've seen many soldiers not even check the chamber before doing it:what:

So i think the accidents are related to not respecting the firearm, and a casual attitude towards trigger control... being TAUGHT by the army.

As an NCO, I make it a habit to personally "educate" anyone i see not checking their chamber. But I can't catch everyone.

Plus, the idea of "clearing" a weapon by pulling the trigger just seems retarded to me.
 
I can easily believe the five NDs every four hours. I saw numerous NDs while I was in the sandbox with the Army. The problem as I saw it was that at least at the time the Army had no standardized clearing procedures. The camp commander decided how weapons were to be cleared and it varied greatly, from locking the bolt back and inspecting the chamber, to placing the weapon on fire and pulling the trigger three times. Another problem was how the Army treated the NDs, to them it was no big deal. In the AF a ND is an Article 15 minimum.
 
Josh, I agree... the Army USED to thump you good if you had an ND... Now it's "no biggie"

Possibly a result of the army not wanting to discipline people because of manpower issues, or possibly a reflection of the increasingly "gun-stupid" society we live in.
 
illini52 said:
Maybe they should keep a blank round in the chamber. That way, if someone has their finger in the wrong place, the gun will still discharge, but there will be no bullet flying around.
If there is a working charge in battery - be it a "live round" or a "blank round" - an AD/ND is still an AD/ND. There is enough pressure put out by a blank (and sometimes wadding) that an eye can be put out, or burns to the skin can occur, depending on the distance between muzzle and unfortunate person. The military adheres to very strict rules and guidelines for issuing live ammunition for this very reason.

El Tejon said:
...surprise, surprise, the soldiers used to carrying weapons (Country boys) had no accidents.
There is no doubt that familiarity with a weapon and what it is capable of doing goes a long way in creating safety. Education, either prior to or immediately upon entry to the service, is the key. As I said earlier, considering the number of entrants to the armed services every year, AD/ND's are minimal and, as El Tejon indicated, those who have prior familiarity with carrying weapons are least likely to have an AD/ND.
 
NRA Mission

The NRA was founded by ex-Union officers who were disgusted with the lack of firearms ability of their recruits. It appears that more progress is still needed.
 
An unfortunate byproduct of the Army's lack of tactical training for "non-combat arms" specialties, then subsequent entry into a war where cooks, mechanics, and computer techs are running convoys.
 
The average company used to experience about five negligent discharges every four hours.
Wow! Just WOW!

I was last on active duty in 1984, but I can't remember a single ND/AD in a four year period, let alone five per company per four hours. (That computes to more than 1200 per battalion per month!) What happened between the 80's and when the rate skyrocketed?
 
There seems to be some misunderstanding about the power of a blank cartridge. Some years ago, an PA NG soldier in training at Indiantown Gap brought a blank round in from exercises (strictly prohibited, at least at that time) and decided to fire it in the barracks just to make noise.

He didn't want to point the M1 rifle at anyone, so he rested the muzzle on the toe of his GI boot, sure the tough leather would stop anything that might come out.

The blast went through the top of his boot, through his foot, through the sole of the boot, and through the barracks floor. He was given a general discharge and still walks with a limp.

Do NOT underestimate blank cartridges!

Jim
 
"The average company used to experience about five negligent discharges every four hours. Now, Shwedo said, "if you hear a single discharge, that's a lot."

That does not suprise me in the least bit. WHY does this happen you ask?

Lack of DISCIPLINE, training, and the over all "woosification" of our armed forces thanks to "political correctness" and a "welfare in uniform" mentality, ESPECIALLY in support troops.

Soldiers fail to meet standards for only 3 reasons...

1. They don't know what the standard is...
2. They know what the standard is, but don't know how to do it properly, or lack the ability to do it...
3. They know the standard but CHOOSE not to do it...

Training can pretty much take care of 1 and 2, and the Army does a quasi-decent job of meeting those needs.

DISCIPLINE is the answer for number 3, and the vast majority of the Army, ESPECIALLY support troops, do a completely pathetic job of meeting that particular need.

Why? You may ask... Because instilling and demanding discipline is considered "mean" and "abusive".

Somewhere along the line mankind learned that the two biggest motivating factors in human behavior are pleasure and pain, and some soldier learned that those two factors can be applied effectively to rapidly develop disciplined warriors. This lesson has been lost in most of our "new model politically correct" Army, and so has the discipline.

The application of pain resulting from a behavior can go a LONG way to preventing that behavior from happening again. How often do you stick your hand in fire these days? Not too often I bet, because you LEARNED that that particular behavior resulted in PAIN, and you learned QUICKLY.

Good Sergeants charged with training soldiers and instilling discipline learned to use pain to modify behavior. It was, and IS, an art form. The Sergeant TEACHES the soldier, once the soldier KNOWS a standard or task, they are expected to execute to standard. If they FAIL due to a lack of discipline, they are introduced to PAIN and retrained.

Note that the proper application of pain is not applied in a violent manner, say with fists, kicks etc, the pain is self induced by the offender, and or, their peers. The object is not to damage a soldier, but to induce self inflicted pain and discomfort through muscle failure, which in turn STRENGTHENS the soldier in the long run both physically and mentally. Failure to comply results in loss of rank/pay/time, which is effective in the LONG term, but absolutely INEFFECTIVE in the short.

What does this have to do with ND's you may ask? Here's an example...

Soldiers are taught safe weapon handling standards by Sergeant Y.

Soldier "X" gets caught with their finger on the trigger. Sergeant Y takes soldier "x" and makes his life miserable for the next 20 minutes or so by introducing pain in the form of various physical exercises that proceed to induce muscle failure in various parts of soldier "x's" fat body. The push up, go...flutter kicks, in cadence...the high jumper....LOW CRAWL YOU....push ups go...the mule kick...WHY ARE YOU DOING MULE KICKS? THAT'S RIGHT, BECAUSE YOUR FINGER WAS ON YOUR TRIGGER!!! PUSH UPS GO!!!

Sergeant Y has achieved more than 1 goal by introducing soldier "x" to pain.

1. He has strengthened soldier "x's" body by having him perform exercises he would not normally do.

2. He has strengthened soldier "x's" mind by forcing him to operate under stress.

3. He has associated bad behavior with pain both consciously and sub-consciously, which is a proven technique used to prevent bad behavior.

4. He has associated failure to follow sergeant "Y's" instructions with pain, which may one day save his and his peers life.

5. He has made an example for ALL to see, which in turn will help prevent soldier "x's" buddies from making the same behavioral mistake.

And lastly, he has saved TIME that soldiers do NOT have by correcting a behavioral problem NOW with a proven technique, as opposed to trying to solve it weeks LATER after the paper work comes through via the military justice channels.

Does this sound like "abuse" to you? Well it may, but consider this before you pass judgement.

Soldiers are NOT civilians. We are required to perform brutal tasks that we KNOW are dangerous and could result in death or maiming, and we are also required to ORDER soldiers to undertake those tasks. We are required to perform these tasks in any environment, regardless of fatigue, hunger, or thirst. This requires physical and mental toughness, and most of all, discipline to accomplish without putting others lives at risk.

The vast majority of our Army is lacking this discipline because the way to instill it is considered "abuse". Soldier "x" will complain to mama, who in turn writes their congressman (Joe College grad who knows NOTHING about creating warriors), who in turn writes some commander who values his career more than creating and sustaining effective warriors, who in turn tells Sergeant "Y" to be nice or he will be sent to prison for "abusing" soldiers. This in turn creates physically and mentally weak soldiers and Sergeants who lack discipline, intestinal fortitude, and a warriors spirit.

And they in turn fight for you...maybe.

My unit uses pain to modify behavior. 5 months at a firebase in Afghanistan and my boys had ZERO, NO, NADA ND's. The unit next to us had 4... Discipline was the difference.

My unit might have a bonafide ND once a year. Maybe.

Soldiers have ND's because they lack training or discipline. Soldiers lack discipline because the Army has shied away from a proven technique of instilling it, and by doing so, more soldiers will get shot by undisciplined losers having ND's.
 
An unfortunate byproduct of the Army's lack of tactical training for "non-combat arms" specialties, then subsequent entry into a war where cooks, mechanics, and computer techs are running convoys.
Just another example of not learning from history. It does repeat itself.

In WW2 my father was an Army officer ... in the Signal Corps. Can't think of any branch much more rear echelon than the Signal Corps, yet he somehow at one point wound up being in command of a large convoy across the Himalyas into some part of China -- where we were trying to root out the Japanese Army. He used to tell some stories about the trek, but mostly relating to different strategies for staying warm when/where there was no warmth to be found. I don't recall any tales of firearms accidents.

But of all my male relatives of that generation, I have to admit that my father was the least gun-savvy of them all, and the only one who didn't own a firearm of any kind.
 
Several times I had the experience of standing at the barrel end of someone's A2, A4, or SAW while they fiddled with the trigger while standing in line at the messhall in Iraq in 03-04. I finally found after trying to nicely ask people to not do that, and getting no positive response, that dropping my A2 to horizontal and pointing it at them every time they pointed theirs at me would get their attention. Not the method I would have preferred, but if that's what it takes, since NOT ONE of these people was corrected by an NCO or commissioned officer. Wait, one was corrected by an E-6 friend of mine when I pointed out the E-4 rythmically squeezing the trigger on his horizontally slung SAW while it was pointed down the long axis of the chow line, of which he happened to be standing in. I think I had a better chance of getting shot waiting for lunch by an American idiot than anything else ever happening to me the entire year I was there. That's what happens when you let people who don't know crap about personal arms teach them as part of their profession.
 
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