Now they're saying we can't even trust the military with ammo?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I gotcha, Mark. THIS 'old timer' :fire: remembers doing 50 pushups for dropping his rifle.

With said rifle lying on the back of his hands.

And kissing said rifle on the downstroke of each pushup.

And hollering, "I LOVE my rifle! I will not drop it anymore!" at the top of his lungs at upright postion of each pushup.

With amused drill sergeants looking on.

And I wasn't the first nor the last to do that. And I don't remember anyone using their rifle for a prybar in my 4 years.


Pointing them at people, yes, but NOT using them for a prybar! :rolleyes:
 
Welcome to the real-world gentlemen. We are now reaping the effects of the feminization of the military. We don't actually train our soldiers to be able to use the weapons until they are in-zone and have time on their hands to do that sort of thing. Too many safety classes on heaters, CO-2 poisioning; Consideration of others; Equal Opportunity; Sexual Harrassment; Fraternization; Multiculturalism, etc. Can't actually have the troops out there handling real bullets now can we??

Look at the way a typical range is run....Very little opportunities for the troops to show proper handling of the weapons; they are told everything by the tower, rodded on and off the line, told when to lock-and load, told when to observe their lanes for targets, told to unload, told to lock the bolt to the rear, visually inspected by range safety, etc.

The problem I have is that few troops ever get realistic training. Then, we put them on guard in response to a real threat and refuse to issue them ammunition because they are more likely to injure someone else than responding to a threat. So.....the issue for spineless commanders is - why have them out there with their weapons in the first place???

Been fighting this battle for a long time....will continue until I retire. It's simply a lack of training.



:cuss: :banghead:
 
now remember I'm an old soldier so I report this with regret

but from what I've seen privately in email the only *armed* troops are the Marines. apparently the AF isn't even issuing firearms to many of their folks. As a marine expressed it to me "soft minds equal soft targets".
 
"St. Petersburg Times"...I think that says it all. Who else would write such a liberal anti-gun story and foist it on the huddled masses?
 
Political Correctness is killing the military

That, and the One Mistake and you are out military too!

Fact is an Officer is MORE! Likely to be involved with a career ending mishap from giving soldiers ammo than from a major disaster occurring on his watch.

Result is Disarmed troops make it more likely for the Captains to Make Major.

Actually fighting a war? PLEASE! The Military is ALL about ticket punching! Getting in an "WAR!" might! Interfere with getting to the Pentagon!
 
A quick brutal suprise attack would really get everyones nickers in a twist. Saddam is missing a golden opportunity here if the facts are correct. Oh we would gear up and go completely midevil on him but the rest of the world would really giggle about the act.
 
I have been following this type of thread over the years and I can say from my personal experience that the military has had it wrong at least since 1956 when I joined the army at the tender age of 17. I fired more rounds through a M1 rifle in basic training than I did through any other issued weapon during my first 3 years in service.

During the first weeks of processing and basic I never had any ammo during guard duty. The first guard duty I was on I carried a clipboard, GI flashlight and a billy club. After that it was the M1 with or w/o fixed bayonet.

During the second phase of training including processing we were
only allowed to walk guard duty with either an empty carbine or one with a 15 round mag with 10 rounds in it. on prison chaser we used a 12 gauge shotgun after firing one qualifying round. We were never qualified with the carbine until shipping overseas.

In Germany
I was initially issued a M1 rifle and walked guard with it unloaded. The 8 rounds in the en bloc clip were kept in the first pouch of the web gear. Later I finagled a way around to get assigned a M2 carbine. Guard duty was 10 rounds in a 15 round mag again. Since I was in an Ordnance unit we were not issued any 30 round mags. We had to finagle a way to get those as well. Being in an ordnance unit made it easier of course.

Range training in Germany was a sometime thing so I found out. We were supposed to go twice a year and sometimes we actually did. More often than not we were given one half day at the range and the minimal amount of ammo to qualify with. I was a bit disgusted by this so I bought a .22 rifle and a .45 M1911 pistol and a Browning P35 in 9mm. I took to the range when ever I could work it out, usually on Sundays when I did not have duty.

All in all during those first three years I probably trained more with my personal firearms than I did with my issued ones. The Infantry got more training with their firearms for sure but service troops were basically ignored.

During a subsequent hitch in the USAF I got even less training and never fired a weapon untill I had been overseas in the PI for several months. The only reason I got to do that was because someone read in my service record that I had taken US Army basic training. I was assigned to a static defense force with the Supply Squadron I was assigen to. I found out that I had more knowledge about firearms than evne some of the APs assigen to protect the base. When we qualified on the range we were given about 20 rounds practice and then straight to the quals. When I was reassigned to Montana and Strategic Air Command I found myself assigned additional duty as a reserve cop for the AP Squadron. Again I found out that I had more knowledge of firearms than even the average AP at the time. On the range some guys would stand there and then turn around with the carbine in their hands to ask a question. Again I resorted to my own rifle and pistols to keep up with firearms training for myself.

After scouting around and finding no viable work in my home state I talked it over with my wife and since we had a 6 months old daughter at the time I decided to go back into service for another hitch in the army. I was ent to Fort ord in California again and ended up in the same processing barracks i had been in prior to basic some 7 years prior. Since there were a number of retreads from all branches of service we had to take the basic training test and qualify with the M14 rifle. I qualified expert and after a couple of weeks of "hurry up and wait" was sent to South Korea where I soon found myself being assigned as the only Ordnance parts clerk in a Hawk Missile unit.

I had taken a rifle/shotgun combo with me as well as a .22 ruger standard pistol. Considering that our secondary job after firing our missiles would be 11B we did not get much training with our rifles either. We were taken out to the range once or twice during my year there. Again I used my personal firearms to keep trained in shooting as well as hunting pheasant with a sgt. and WO3 I worked for.

After Korea I was sent to Fort Riley and the Big Red One. I was assigned as the lone Ordnance trained clerk in a HQ Company of a tank unit. We did manage to get to the range one with the .45 pistol and once with the M14 rifle while I was there before I was transferred to an Ordnance unit heading to RVN with the first brigade in the Fall of 65.

While on the pistol range I tried firing the army way and was missing too many targets. I decided that if I wanted to qualify and possible save my own life someday I needed some proactive action. I started using both hands on the pistol and all my targets were falling while other soldiers were hitting some and missing some. There was a grizzled old sargeant working the range and he stopped the action and came over and chewed me out for not using the old army way of shooting a pistol. I told him I was at least hitting my targets on the walking assault course and preferred to qualify anyway I could.

The Range Officer in the tower was a young 2nd Lt. who climbed down and came over and asked what was the matter and why the hold up?? The grizzled old sarge told him how this young kid was not using the proper army technique to shoot the .45 pistol. The lieutenant said did he knock down the targets? The sgt said yes and the lieutenant said thats why we are here so get on with it. I qualified that day and nothing more was said.

On the day we went to fire at the KD range with our M14s it started to rain and the wind came up. We were in trenches firing at pop-up targets and I got all but one or two of mine and one of those was a faulty target mechanism. Some of the troops wanted to head back and get out of the rain and wind but I figured that if we were in a combat situation it might rain also.

upon arrival by ship off Cape St. Jaques in Vietnam we went ashore by landing craft w/o a bullet issued to anyone. About 10 % of our unit had decided to carry a personal handgun with them and we at least had some ammo going ashore. For two weeks we were not issued any ammo and went through at least two shake downs. No guns or ammo were ever found.

When we drew our vehicles that had arrived before us and we were issued 100 rounds at 20 rounds per magazine for the M14. We were told to carry the rifle empty and not have any mags in the rifle unless ordered to do so. On the day our convoy headed out we were "allowed" to load our rifles and put the safety on before taking to the road.

During my tour of about one year we went out to fire our rifles one time and on New Years at midnight a whole lot of guys fired all the tracers they could at the jungle across the river. Eventually there was a registration and confiscation of personal firearms but we got them back before returing home.

During our stay, our CO came up with a bright idea that he would bury a CONEX container in the middle of our old French fort and then store all of our issued ammo in it. A few of us found out about it and it did not happen. Can you imagine trying to unlock a stell box and issue out ammo to the troops while under fire?? As it was I was the only soldier that refused the CO's order to unload my rifle one time when we came under sniper attack. That is another story for another time though.


:cool: :D
 
Besides the fact of not receiving training, someone brought to my attention the fact that some in the armed forces have no interest in firearms or learning to use one. If this is true, why would any one volunteer to be a soldier if they had little or no interest in learning to use the "tools" of a soldier? It is beyond my comprehension to understand this!!
 
Firearm safety?

The armed forces DONT teach it. Muzzle awareness, forget it. It's the same the world over, "Clear it and clean it".
Also, the majority of military recruits have never handled any sort of firearm before joining.
 
......well if SOME of you actually got away from your keyboard-mouth extensions and signed up for a short bit of Military time, you would:

a-understand the points of the article
b- actually know what in the hell you were talking about



be well
 
Back in January of 1968....

I was the armorer for an artillery battery at Ft. Bragg. The arms rooms were back-to-back, with concrete block walls between them. I was in-processing weapons following a training day when a chunk of concrete jumped off the wall and fell beside my desk, with a simutaneous, muffled "BOOM":what:

One of the 2nd. Lt.'s had found a loose 7.62mm round and walked into the opposite arms room, picked up an M-60, opened the bolt, dropped the round onto the feed tray and let the bolt forward!:uhoh:

He wanted to see if it really was a 'machinegun' round!

Firearms training in the Army has been an 'iffy' thing for quite a while, I suspect:rolleyes: :
 
Hey Dude,

I am NOT going to sing to you but as I read the original post the point is that the army/marines wont issue ammo to frontline troops untill the probability of using it is eminent. This is obviously an attempt to reduce wounds and deaths due to UDs and confine such incidents to actual battle where instances of friendly fire are less demoralising.
Further to my other post, not only are most recruits firearm illiterate but in service the majority will not have to use one.
 
The military did do something about it a while ago...

Early this week, a private was reprimanded for using her gun barrel as a pry bar while she was assembling the frame of a cot.

They came out with the HBAR barrel profile, to keep the barrel from bending when used for such purposes. It's thicker in profile, but only from the handguards forward. Problem solved, no? :D
 
They need to send the officers who came up with this policy to a showing of the movie "Zulu". They can watch the troops trying to hold off the attacking hoards bare-handed while the sargents try unload ammo crates from the wagons and open them. (PS: the Red-coats lost this one, too. Until Roark's Drift.)
 
I think that "dude" is trying to say that those of us that served in the military know that the problem of soldiers being unarmed extends back to a time before "political correctness", and "feminizing the military" were an issue.

I know for a fact that epic disasters that occured during my hitch (U.S.N. 80-84) would have been mitigated/never occured, had the troops been sufficiently armed/trained.
 
Forget not giving me rounds for safety. Not having any ammo while within a few miles of the enemy is what makes me feel un-safe. If someone gets a ND for being stupid while cleaing their weapon and injures someone else, remove them from the combat zone and court-martial them. Rattle the cage and remind these idiots that they are responsible for every round that comes out of their muzzle

Whoa up there, how can you expect someone to know something that they've never been taught? Court martial them? LOL.

This smells of cause and effect. The Govt.'s political anti-gun agenda is breeding more inefficient soldiers to backfire on them. 17 yr olds used to show up for duty with their own rifle and already know how to shoot. Now the Govt. demonizes guns, creates 5000 hoops to jump through to be able to own and/or shoot them and you think they should be court martialed for having an ND in the service? Tsk tsk tsk.

Court martial the Govt., reinstate the constitution, and the next generation of soldiers will be having less ND's. The Govt dont care about the citizens or the soldiers and to save face for bad form of soldiers, do they train them better? NO! they take away their ammo instead. :barf:
 
I will put it this way. I can count the number of times I have shot on the government's dime on one hand. And this is over the space of 9 years. And, I'm lucky to even have had that many, the average squid wouldn't even have been able to do that. I have been assigned to some advantagous duty stations.

I work in a NAS Weapons Dept, in CONUS, and some of the folks the local squadrons send to pistol qualification, would scare the bejesus out of ya. 25' 30 round pistol course, with B-21 targets, and some people only get 3 rounds on paper, let alone on target.
 
Anyone here remember what happend to the Marine barracks in Beirut about 20yrs ago?

The guards did not have ammunition for their M16's and the suicide bomber drove his truck bomb right past them. You think the brass might have learned something from that tragedy.
 
"brass" & "learn"


Incompatible concepts.


Folks, as much as I'd love to blame this on the feminization of the military, and the long campaign against gun ownership, the fact is, this is nothing new. Read some of the posts from those of us who did our time a while ago. It's not new.
 
Whoa up there, how can you expect someone to know something that they've never been taught? Court martial them? LOL.

Edward, in reply to your quote above, let me quote myself:

Besides, what happened to keeping your weapon pointed in a safe direction? I know MCRD Parris Island taught that rule--I guess other boot camps and TBS gloss over those...

Since I've attended no boot camps other than the Marine Corps', I will readily admit that perhaps other services' boot camps are falling short in teaching basic rifle safety skills. The recuits of H Company, 2nd Recruit Training Bn., Marine Corps Recruit Depot, Parris Island, however, learned in boot camp that we were not to point our weapons at anything we did not want to destroy.

Aside from nerfing the military, a general movement in my generation is one of moving away from personal responsability. "It's not my fault, 'factor X' is why I am (pick one) inept, not trained, suicidal, homicidal etc". YOUR rounds and YOUR rifle are YOUR responsability. As a child, I learned at the stern hand of my parents that there were repercussions for my actions, be they good or bad, and those repercussions were mine to bear. It's time the 'Not my fault' excuse ends.

I'm sorry, but even lacking training, I don't think it requires much brain-housing-group activity to realize that pointing something designed to kill the enemy at someone else might kill them too.

I know I come off as unsympathetic, but I'm of age with these idiots, so I KNOW it's not just youth and inexperience.

-Teuf
 
Teuf, It sounded alot better the way you put it that time. Good points. I wasnt trying to get away from the personal responsibility issue as much as I was trying to make the point that the gubmints working against itself.

Friendly fire and ND's are a bad thing. People should have personal responsibility. But I'm not so sure that that can be taught in 6 weeks to 'newbies'.

If the anti gun political climate was not there, we'd have more (fence sitters) delving into weaponcraft and learning to be safe at younger ages. My kids were taught the four rules during the first 6 years of life. I didnt wait until they were 17 then give em a crash course in ' you better be safe' then slip an AW into their hands. That is unrealistic and foolhardy at the least, IMO.

Which'd you rather have walking behind you cocked & locked into combat, a 17 yr old newbie with 6 weeks training, or a 17 yr old who had been shooting & handling weapons since pre-skul?

I'm all for personal accountability, lets just be realistic about it. The gubmint plays heavily in creating the social atmosphere of what is acceptable to expose kids to. Soon it'll be illegal to even let your kids handle a locked weapon. Them kids should be accountable, but lets not discount the mitigating factors which contribute to the kids efficacy or lack thereof.

Does that make sense to you all or am I missing something?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top