So I was loading up some 9MM 124gr Berrys HP with 3.6 gr of Titegroup, and the only info I could find for COL was 1.15. It seemed a bit long, so I tested one in my Beretta 92, and it fit fine. But when I dropped it into my Springfield XDS, it was too long; had to seat the bullet down to a COL of 1.07. Has anyone else run into this problem, and will it cause pressure issues being that length? I am relatively new to reloading, so thanks in advance for your advice.
OAL for 9mm
- Thread starter CoreyL
- Start date
- Status
nettlle
Contributing Member
For 9mm I seat Speer Gold Dots at 1.125" and RMR JHP MPR at 1.090" in the same gun. So what you are describing doesn't sound out of line to me.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
As OAL goes down pressure goes up if the powder charge stays the same.
Looking at Hodgdon for Titegroup with a 124
125 GR. SIE FMJ Hodgdon Titegroup .355" 1.090" 4.1 1069 27,300 CUP 4.4 1136 30,600 CUP
124 GR BERB HBRN Plated Hodgdon Titegroup .356" 1.150" 3.6 957 27,700 PSI 4.1 1057 32,700 PSI
125 GR HAP Hodgdon Titegroup .356" 1.069" 2.8 816 27,100 PSI 3.2 930 33,700 PSI
The HAP is always quite a bit lower,
looking at the other two I would think 3.6 would probably be ok, but I don't use a lot of Titegroup. (used a lb and didn't care for it that much but lots of people like it, burns hot though)
If it was me I would load up a some at 3.4 then some at 3.6 and shoot them before I loaded up a bunch. (always a wise idea to test before loading up a bunch)
Where they just for practice or were you trying to make Power factor for IDPA/USPSA?
If they are just for fun I would load 3.4, 3.5, 3.6 and 3.7 and see what shot best for me.
Of course shoot the 3.4s first and quit if you see any pressure signs (by the time you see them you are way over pressure in 9mm)
At that OAL I would guess MAX to be 3.8-4gr but just guessing.
Maybe some Titegroup users can chime in.
Be safe, have fun/
Looking at Hodgdon for Titegroup with a 124
125 GR. SIE FMJ Hodgdon Titegroup .355" 1.090" 4.1 1069 27,300 CUP 4.4 1136 30,600 CUP
124 GR BERB HBRN Plated Hodgdon Titegroup .356" 1.150" 3.6 957 27,700 PSI 4.1 1057 32,700 PSI
125 GR HAP Hodgdon Titegroup .356" 1.069" 2.8 816 27,100 PSI 3.2 930 33,700 PSI
The HAP is always quite a bit lower,
looking at the other two I would think 3.6 would probably be ok, but I don't use a lot of Titegroup. (used a lb and didn't care for it that much but lots of people like it, burns hot though)
If it was me I would load up a some at 3.4 then some at 3.6 and shoot them before I loaded up a bunch. (always a wise idea to test before loading up a bunch)
Where they just for practice or were you trying to make Power factor for IDPA/USPSA?
If they are just for fun I would load 3.4, 3.5, 3.6 and 3.7 and see what shot best for me.
Of course shoot the 3.4s first and quit if you see any pressure signs (by the time you see them you are way over pressure in 9mm)
At that OAL I would guess MAX to be 3.8-4gr but just guessing.
Maybe some Titegroup users can chime in.
Be safe, have fun/
I tested some 124 grain Berry's plated RN (.356 diam.) using 3.7 grains of Titegroup at a COAL of 1.160" in a new Beretta 92 FS Compact with factory springs ... that load proved to be too mild to even function the slide & eject the spent case properly !
JCSC
Member
Funny you mention this, as I load Berry’s in my Glock 43 and had the same concerns.
The 124gr hollow point hit the lands of the G43 at 1.134” COAL. I loaded and shot 200 of those loaded at 1.07 COAL under 4.0 of tightgroup. They are reasonably accurate in my gun, but nothing spectacular.
I also played with the Berry’s 124gr flat point target hollow point ( my new favorite). I hit the lands at a length of 1.15”. I am loading these at 1.09” COAL under same 4.0 of tightgroup. I have cycled 500 of these and my Glock loves them. I’m starting another 1000 now and this will be my go to.
Both the above loads are CCI primers and a light crimp to remove the flare and prevent setback. Maybe .001/.002”
I tested these loads at 3.7, 3.8, 3.9 and 4. The lower end at 3.7 was horribly dirty, black on the outside of the cases. By 4.0 it seemed to be a nice clean round.
Neither of these loads seemed overpowered to me. The 115 Berry’s RN I loaded seemed much snappier.
As you know every gun is different, so work up slowly. I’m no expert, having only loaded a couple rifles prior to this year, but I have had succes with the loads referenced above.
Note- in my notes I had a recipe that was referred to me for the berry 124 preferred HP.
4.2 gr tightgroup and 1.06-1.075 COAL. I never ran this high, so can’t comment, but we are not the only folks that have noticed the short OAL.
The 124gr hollow point hit the lands of the G43 at 1.134” COAL. I loaded and shot 200 of those loaded at 1.07 COAL under 4.0 of tightgroup. They are reasonably accurate in my gun, but nothing spectacular.
I also played with the Berry’s 124gr flat point target hollow point ( my new favorite). I hit the lands at a length of 1.15”. I am loading these at 1.09” COAL under same 4.0 of tightgroup. I have cycled 500 of these and my Glock loves them. I’m starting another 1000 now and this will be my go to.
Both the above loads are CCI primers and a light crimp to remove the flare and prevent setback. Maybe .001/.002”
I tested these loads at 3.7, 3.8, 3.9 and 4. The lower end at 3.7 was horribly dirty, black on the outside of the cases. By 4.0 it seemed to be a nice clean round.
Neither of these loads seemed overpowered to me. The 115 Berry’s RN I loaded seemed much snappier.
As you know every gun is different, so work up slowly. I’m no expert, having only loaded a couple rifles prior to this year, but I have had succes with the loads referenced above.
Note- in my notes I had a recipe that was referred to me for the berry 124 preferred HP.
4.2 gr tightgroup and 1.06-1.075 COAL. I never ran this high, so can’t comment, but we are not the only folks that have noticed the short OAL.
I haven’t been out to try that load in the Beretta yet
Thanks for the input. I think I will load a few with varying charges and see how they perform in both of my 9’s.
LiveLife
Member
Berry's recommends 1.060" OAL for their 124 gr HP - https://www.berrysmfg.com/pub/files/BulletCOL.pdf
Here's Hodgdon load data for 125 gr JHP and note the diameter of bullet and OAL as Berry's is sized larger at .356" and 1.060" is shorter than published (BTW, I interchange 124 gr and 125 gr load data as many jacketed/plated bullet weights vary by 1.0 gr anyways.
) - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol125 gr Hornady HAP Titegroup Dia .356" OAL 1.069" Start 2.8 gr (816 fps) 27,100 PSI - Max 3.2 gr (930 fps) 33,700 PSI
Last edited:
MeanBean
Member
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2019
- Messages
- 100
I had some rounds made for 2 different 9mm, a cpx-2 and an EP9. These rounds plunked and spin in both barrels. But when I bought my TP9SA elite I tried to plunk the same ammo. No Bueno. Turns out the canik had a tighter chamber and needed to be crimped a slight bit more.
The lesson is : assume nothing, verify everything
The lesson is : assume nothing, verify everything
Last edited:
rfwobbly
Member
• IME, the Berry Target HP is their bullet with the worst results. It's not a bad bullet, it's just that their Hollow Base series is so much better.
• "Tight chambered" guns from eastern Europe often use much shorter OALs. The barrel always dictates the OAL. Your finding of 1.07" is correct. I shoot that bullet at 1.065" in a CZ.
• You must remember, they don't have fancy bullet shapes in eastern Europe. If you'll stick with RN or HBRN in the Springfield you'll have a much easier time and a more "normal" OAL.
• "Tight chambered" guns from eastern Europe often use much shorter OALs. The barrel always dictates the OAL. Your finding of 1.07" is correct. I shoot that bullet at 1.065" in a CZ.
• You must remember, they don't have fancy bullet shapes in eastern Europe. If you'll stick with RN or HBRN in the Springfield you'll have a much easier time and a more "normal" OAL.
I would have to agree.
lordpaxman
Member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2011
- Messages
- 2,434
Be advised, Titegroup is a great powder, but very unforgiving. It doesn't take much of a change to be in dangerous territory. When I first started on 9mm I scanned the forums, mostly the Enos ones, and everyone raved about Titegroup so I jumped on board as well. While working up a load, I mis-read the data sheet I had printed for a 115 LRN and instead of 1.100", used 1.090" for the COL. I was using 4.0gr of Titegroup as the 3.9gr functioned fine. I take full responsibility for the error, but this is the result in a DW pointman:
Fortunately the only damage done was a brown stain but I now triple check the published load data, and, while I still load with Titegroup in some calibers, I find other powders more appropriate especially for a beginning reloader. If you want a fast powder, Sport Pistol, N320 or W244 is plenty fast enough. If you need something close to Titegroup, IMR Target powers two of my competition loads.
As for the bullet selection, a round nose will most likely give you the longest COL for all your jewelry. Create a chart of the working/max COL for the set of barrels and bullet profiles, and also keep track of the bullet OAL so you know what the seating depth is for them.
Best of luck!
LiveLife
Member
Yes, Titegroup burns hot and violent often with very narrow load range and why I don't recommend to new reloaders who haven't learned to produce adequate enough neck tension loads to minimize/prevent bullet setback.
Even though you are using below max load data, with enough bullet setback when bullet nose bumps the feed ramp, chamber pressure can spike to over max pressures.
But I like Titegroup for 9mm as it can produce more accurate loads than W231/HP-38.
Average Joe
Member
It all depends on the bullet profile. Make a dummy round, and check in your guns.... I have a CZ that has a very short throat, and will only tolerate certain bullets.
sparkyv
Member
Easily my CZ has the tightest chamber of all my 9mms. So as long as I load to the CZ COAL requirements, I'm good to go with whichever 9mms I feed my handloads.
rfwobbly
Member
And they refused to feed more than 3 rounds consistently in my Kimber Target II. I shot maybe 25 different bullets through that gun, but the feed ramp did not like that one particular bullet's meplat.
armoredman
Member
When I loaded the Berrys THP for my CZs, the short chamber required them to be loaded all the way down to 1.02. They were very accurate when they would chamber, but loaded that short, even with target loads made me kinda nervous. Those were also the ONLY bullets that would actually jam the Scorpion. Once I was done with those I never bought any more.
I found the same thing, they could be finicky feeding in some guns. I think I have a few around somewhere, but like you, have never bought any more. I really like some of the Berrys offerings, but not that one. The X-Treme and Powerbond equivalents shoot very well and feed great in everything.
JCSC
Member
Interesting that everyone had so many issues. My G43 shoots them flawlessly.
Just goes to show that every load is taylored to the weapon
Just goes to show that every load is taylored to the weapon
LiveLife
Member
More like reliability of finished round feeding is dependent on bullet type, sized diameter, nose profile/ogive, bullet base length/bearing surface, OAL/bullet seating depth and subsequent case neck bulging relative to case wall thickness - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10713822
Once we know these reloading variables, we can load rounds that will work in any barrel.
In this reference thread, we tested various bullets in barrels with long leade/freebore/throat to essentially no leade - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...let-max-working-oal-col-for-reference.848462/
Last edited:
Uranophobic Unicorn
Member
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2019
- Messages
- 13
Which model CZ? My PCR will eat anything I throw at it. Plunks 1.15 all day. 5.9 grains of AA#5 with Berry's 115 plated at 1.15 works to good effect.
armoredman
Member
I was loading them for a CZ SP-01 Phantom, P-09 and P-01, as well as the (not CZ designed), Scorpion EVO S1. Had the same issue. Really accurate, but had to be loaded ridiculously short to function.
Average Joe
Member
My PCR will not chamber any blunt nose bullets, such as Sig's V-Crowns.... I can make them work if I load them down to 1.06, but then they fail to feed being that short....CZ's require special attention due to the short throat. Most round nose FMJ bullets work just fine .Just watch the bullet profiles and you will be good to go.
- Status
