Observations on stopping power from the morgue.

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No chills in my spine from that one. No details stated by Brian McKenna;
author and "Human Resources" developer for police departments.
He does, though, do a good job of administrative analysis: "Danger Signs,"
tactic criticism, lauding of Body Armor, available statistics , and all that type of commentary.

I still like to read accurate detail; "center mass" to me is too vague to be informative. I do understand its acceptance to Police Administrators and Instructors who must divise programs, which are taught initially, before any actual shooting occurs.

How ever, we, the reader, still do not know if the wounds given to Palmer were shallow or perhaps grazing the vital organs, etc. My conjecture is that this mad man did not receive any wounds that were effectively destructive to his heart or any vital anatomy. Yes, I suppose with all those wounds he had what would be called "fatal" hits, but then, so did Platt.

If you go for this, what in the world would you conclude then?
Seventeen shots from a 40 S&W round -Center Mass and this killer still has the capacity to murder you!
Should the officer have used a battle axe?
Something in that report is "conspicuously absent."

"Dead men tell no Tales."
 
According to the article, the bad guy died 4 minutes after the last shot.

We have been conditioned by TV shows and movies to think that gun shots are instantly fatal. Have we not seen actors blown 30 feet across a room due to a shotgun blast? Is that real? We have seen tens of thousands of gun shot deaths in movies and TV shows, and we believe that what we see on the screen is reality.

But it is not true. TV shows and Movies have time limits, so the bad guy better die quickly, or it will interfere with a commercial.

However, if you have read enough war books, or listened to the news, many US soldiers have come out of Iraq missing arms, legs, it should become apparent that humans can survive a lot of shock.

As long as the bleeding is stopped.

Blood loss is 100 % terminal. You loose enough blood, you die. Lets assume that this bad guy took 6 minutes to bleed out. Is that unreasonable?

As for battle axes. Battle axes, maces, and pole axes are fearsome devices. The amount of momentum transfer that occurs when someone hits another with a weight at the end of a lever arm is immense. Much more momentum transfer than with a standard sidearm. And if you take into account the shearing action that occurs with a bladed weapon, well, it will take a head off, or an arm, or a leg.
 
A friend of mine was a medical examiner in Virginia. He had a story about a man who was shot through the heart with a shotgun. The man walked a block, sat down on his front step and died. My friend did the autopsy, and the heart was destroyed, shredded.

He said on the stand, some wiseguy lawyer said, "Do you expect us to believe a man walked a block without a heart?"

And my friend said, "I don't care what you believe. I only have to testify to what I found during the autopsy."
 
There was a case about a decade ago in the Bronx where a teenager shot a pedestrian with a .177 pellet rifle from his apartment window. The pellet penetrated and nicked the mans heart killing him. I forget the rest of the particulars but it did make me scratch my head at the time. I have personally investigated many shootings. The one reoccurring theme is that they don't follow any rhyme or reason. It always appeared to me as matter of luck, good or bad depending on the point of view.
 
Apples and Oranges

As an ex soldier, you, of all people sould know that side arms were/are not even an issue. I spent 22 years in the Army, 11B Infantry, and I never wanted a larger caliber than the 9mm nor have I ever heard a fellow soldier even broach the subject. Combat Arms soldiers carry rifles...side arms were not even issued to grunts...pretty much last resort and worthless. Officers and REMFs were issued side arms.

Soldiers carry ball ammo. Cops & Citizens carrying for self defense will almost always carry JHP.

A good modern 9mm JHP such as HST is going to expand to greater diameter than .45ACP Ball.

9mm is of limited use in military because of stupid regulations prohibiting expanding/exploding ammunition.

To extrapolate results of ball (FMJ) ammo to JHP is foolish.
 
First and foremost has to be the caliber you can shoot accurately and do so repeatedly. That is the bottom line. Someone walking around with a 50cal because he believes that is what he needs to protect himself because it is the biggest and baddest pistol around is worthless to him if he can not hit the broadside of a barn.
 
A friend and former Firearms Co-Instructor is currently an active LEO in a western State. Some years ago during a drug bust, prior to the days of full SWAT teams for drug raids, the suspect he and his partner were looking for opened fire on them. Granted, this guy was in another universe on either PCP or Heroin (I forget), but my buddy's Department issued sidearm was a 9mm, loaded I believe with 127gr JHP's. After he and his partner engaged and returned fire, they shot the drug-enraged guy 24 times, center mass, before he stopped firing back, he died as they were cuffing him.
I'm not banging on the 9mm, ok. If that's the most powerful caliber you can handle, shoot well, and shoot accurately, then GO FOR IT. I own a few myself. There is a place for everyone's choice, mine just may be different than yours.
Case in point: some CCW students of mine were in their late 60's, terribly arthritic, and a .380 was the most powerful thing they could shoot that didn't hurt THEM, they could shoot it well, and weren't afraid to practice with it. For THEM, it was the best choice. The best, most wonderful super-magnum-mankiller isn't worth a damned if it's at home and you're NOT when you need it; or you can't hit the broad side of a barn with it at the range and you've got multiple assailants running at you. Get the picture?
Some ARE better than others, that's life. Deal with it and get over it. Pick what feels good, you can use and deploy it effectively, hone your skills to maximize it's capability, and carry on with your life. For ME, I 'prefer' a .45 (1911), but circumstances dictate that at times I carry a 9mm. Ok, I accept that. When I carry the 9, I understand that if I have to use it, it 'might' not do the job the same as my .45, but it's better than NOTHING, or a stick, or a rock, or a set of keys and a cell phone when the need arises. NOTHING in life is 100% certain, except death, and I'd prefer to have at least a little "say-so" about that:D
 
P.S.- Oh yeah, all of the 24 rounds mentioned above put into the BG's Center-Mass were each considered a fatal wound. He was so doped up, he was dead and didn't even know it. Is the guy (or gal) who tries to do you harm going to be stone cold straight and sober? The ONLY way to absolutely, positively CEASE the action is to STOP all motor skills/functions relative to the threat (I am assuming for the purpose of this discussion, that the BG is intent on killing you or your family members). A bigger bullet has better 'odds' of doing that quickly than a smaller one.
 
Oh man -

I'm probably gonna get a lot of **** about this, but,

Growing up, the .22 LR was the go to gun.

And I'm only going to give one example.

In the early seventies, a friend of mine was

A mobile butcher.

Which is to say he would drive to your place,

Kill your beef, and butcher, and wrap it

And, bingo, into your freezer.

I know, different times.

The weapon was a short barreled single shot

Winchester .22 rifle.

Worked every time.

So I kind of have my doubts about these stories

Of multiple clips of highpowered ammo being

Shot into perps, or whoever,

With no effect.

I grew up on the ranch.

.22 did it most of the time,

30/30 did the rest.


peace

isher
 
I would disagree that "larger is better".

I think "smaller and more powder" is better !

What I think matters is two things:
1. Shot placement (disrupting the central nervous system)
2. Velocity (sufficient speed/power to go through clothing,soft tissue and bone)
 
Proper shot placement...

Proper shot placement is required to stop any threat with a hand gun.

There are no magic hand gun calibers. None. That includes .45 acp along with all of the hunting calibers out there (.41 magnum, .44 magnum,..., .500 S&W).
 
I did shoot a man I hit him 3 times in the chest with a 45 and guess what? He ran away! Took a 4th slug in the kidney to bring him down after he had sprinted about 40 yards.

Hopefully that wasn't a home defense scenario...:p

Even in Texas, you might have to clean up the highway for a few weekends, if you took the 4th shot.:D
 
Winchester .22 rifle.
Worked every time.
So I kind of have my doubts about these stories
Of multiple clips of highpowered ammo being
Shot into perps, or whoever,
With no effect.

The guy shot the cow in the head. Big difference.

Center mass isn't central nervous system like the brain. Lungs, heart, liver etc need to be bled out before the BG will stop. Ever been deer hunting?
 
It's the tactics used with the firearm that makes it work right. Two to the chest and one to the head, no matter the caliber, generally leaves the bad guy having a real bad day. Sure, a .45 is a good thing but like a 9 mm or a .22 they all have got to be properly used to be effective. That's exactly why so many elite forces personnel use 9 millimeter pistols to effect.
 
Michael Courtney has, though I haven't seen him around in awhile. He may have been run out on a rail by the hardcore Facklerites.

Come on Ryan, you should at least try a google scholar search before floating the hypothesis that our ballistic pressure wave work has not gained the credibility needed for publication in scientific venues. Several important papers were published in 2007, including

Links between traumatic brain injury and ballistic pressure waves originating in the thoracic cavity and extremities

Authors: Amy Courtney a; Michael Courtney b
Affiliations: a Department of Physics, United States Military Academy, West Point, NY, USA
b Ballistics Testing Group, West Point, NY, USA

DOI: 10.1080/02699050701481571
Published in: Brain Injury, Volume 21, Issue 7 June 2007 , pages 657 - 662
Subjects: Neuroscience; Rehabilitation;
A copy of a preprint is available at:
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0808/0808.1443.pdf

In 2008, we had a number of publications, many of which have relevance with ballistic pressure waves:

Ballistics Testing Group 2008 Publications

A Thoracic Mechanism of Mild Traumatic Brain Injury Due to Blast Pressure Waves
Published as: Medical Hypotheses, Volume 72, Issue 1 (2009) , p 76 – 83. doi:10.1016/j.mehy.2008.08.015
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.4757.pdf

ABSTRACT
The mechanisms by which blast pressure waves cause mild to moderate traumatic brain injury (mTBI) are an open question. Possibilities include acceleration of the head, direct passage of the blast wave via the cranium, and propagation of the blast wave to the brain via a thoracic mechanism. The hypothesis that the blast pressure wave reaches the brain via a thoracic mechanism is considered in light of ballistic and blast pressure wave research. Ballistic pressure waves, caused by penetrating ballistic projectiles or ballistic impacts to body armor, can only reach the brain via an internal mechanism and have been shown to cause cerebral effects. Similar effects have been documented when a blast pressure wave has been applied to the whole body or focused on the thorax in animal models. While vagotomy reduces apnea and bradycardia due to ballistic or blast pressure waves, it does not eliminate neural damage in the brain, suggesting that the pressure wave directly affects the brain cells via a thoracic mechanism. An experiment is proposed which isolates the thoracic mechanism from cranial mechanisms of mTBI due to blast wave exposure. Results have implications for evaluating risk of mTBI due to blast exposure and for developing effective protection.


Comments on “Ballistics: a primer for the surgeon”
Published as: Injury, 2008 Aug; 39(8): p 964-5. DOI: 10.1016/j.injury.2008.03.020
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.4930.pdf

Abstract:
In response to a published assertion to the contrary, this paper briefly reviews many studies that document remote wounding effects of ballistic pressure waves including experiments in pigs and dogs that find brain injury resulting from animal models shot in the thigh and case studies in humans that document both remote brain and spinal cord injuries ascribed to ballistic pressure waves.

Apparent measurement errors in “Development of biomechanical response corridors of the thorax to blunt ballistic impacts”
Published as: Journal of Biomechanics, Volume 41, Issue 2, 2008, Page 486
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.4755.pdf

Abstract: “Development of biomechanical response corridors of the thorax to blunt ballistic impacts” (Bir, C., Viano, D., King, A., 2004, Journal of Biomechanics 37, 73-79.) contains apparent measurement errors. Areas under several force vs. time (Fig. 2) and force vs. deflection curves (Fig.4) differ significantly from the momentum and kinetic energy changes, respectively.


Misleading reference to unpublished wound ballistics data regarding distant injuries
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.4927.pdf

Abstract: An article (J Trauma 29:10-18, 1989) cites unpublished wound ballistics data to support the authors’ view that distant injuries are a myth in wound ballistics. The actual data, published in 1990, contains a number of detailed examples of distant injuries. (Bellamy RF, Zajtchuk R. The physics and biophysics of wound ballistics. In: Zajtchuk R, ed. Textbook of Military Medicine, Part I: Warfare, Weaponry, and the Casualty, Vol. 5, Conventional Warfare: Ballistic, Blast, and Burn Injuries. Washington, DC: Office of the Surgeon General, Department of the Army, United States of America; 1990: 107-162)

Comments Regarding “On the Nature of Science”
Published as: Physics in Canada, Vol. 64, No. 3 (2008), p7-8.
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.4932.pdf

Abstract: An attempt to redefine science in the 21st century (BK Jennings, On the Nature of Science, Physics in Canada, 63(7) 2007) has abandoned traditional notions of natural law and objective reality, blurred the distinctions between natural science and natural history, elevated Occam’s razor from an epistemological preference to a scientific principle, and elevated peer-review and experimental care as equals with repeatable experiment as arbiters of scientific validity. Our comments review the long-established axioms of the scientific method, remind readers of the distinctions between science and history, disprove the generality of Occam’s razor by counter example, and highlight the risks of accepting additional scientific arbiters as equal to repeatable experiment.

Acoustic methods for measuring bullet velocity
Published as: Applied Acoustics 69 (2008) 925–928, doi:10.1016/j.apacoust.2007.05.004
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.4752.pdf

Abstract: This article describes two acoustic methods to measure bullet velocity with an accuracy of 1% or better. In one method, a microphone is placed within 0.1 m of the gun muzzle and a bullet is fired at a steel target 45 m away. The bullet’s flight time is the recorded time between the muzzle blast and sound of hitting the target minus the time for the sound to return from the target to the microphone. In the other method, the microphone is placed equidistant from both the gun muzzle and the steel target 91 m away. The time of flight is the recorded time between the muzzle blast and the sound of the bullet hitting the target. In both cases, the average bullet velocity is simply the flight distance divided by the flight time.
Key words: bullet velocity

A method for testing bullets at reduced velocity
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.4934.pdf

Abstract: Reconstruction of shooting events occasionally requires testing of bullets at velocities significantly below the typical muzzle velocity of cartridge arms. Trajectory, drag, and terminal performance depend strongly on velocity, and realistic results require accurately reconstructing the velocity. A method is presented for testing bullets at reduced velocities by loading the bullet into a sabot and firing from a muzzleloader with a suitably reduced powder charge. Powder charges can be safely reduced to any desirable level when shooting saboted bullets from a muzzleloader; in contrast, cartridge arms can only be safely operated within a narrow window of powder charges/muzzle velocities. This technique is applicable to a wide range of both pistol and rifle bullets at velocities from 700 ft/s to 2000 ft/s.
 
Thanks for dropping by Doc.

I'll keep your links for revue.

tipoc
 
Quote:
Winchester .22 rifle.
Worked every time.
So I kind of have my doubts about these stories
Of multiple clips of highpowered ammo being
Shot into perps, or whoever,
With no effect.
The guy shot the cow in the head. Big difference.

Center mass isn't central nervous system like the brain. Lungs, heart, liver etc need to be bled out before the BG will stop. Ever been deer hunting?
__________________
There are two kinds of people in the world: (1) the free; and (2) food animals.

-Aristodemus

chris in va -

"Center mass isn't central nervous system like the brain. Lungs, heart, liver etc need to be bled out before the BG will stop. Ever been deer hunting?"

Exactly the point of my post. Which gets us back to placement.

Which is to say, if you had a choice between centerpunching a BG

In both knees, followed by a forehead shot....nevermind,

I know I'm not preaching to the choir here.

Just a ranch kid whose dad was a major sonofabitch about

"making each shot count."

And yeah, hunted deer, waterfowl, upland birds.

But wild boar are a challenge.

In the early seventies, it was actually part of my job to thin out

The pig population on the particular canyon of Catalina Island

In which I lived and worked.

I used a 16 gauge side by side with rifled slugs,

Because that's what I had.

And as long as you made the first shot count, it worked.

I blew it, once, with a really big black and white boar

I'd been after for awhile.

Ended up on my back emptying my Colt Official Police

.22 long rifle into the boar as fast as I could.

He crashed down about 4 feet away.

After which I got onto my hands and knees and puked my guts out.

And, re: Aristodemus - if you are speaking of the Spartan who managed to get out of Thermopylae as 1 of the 2 survivors of the three hundred, and
was branded as a coward...........

he is best known for the phrase "Money makes the man."

I do not know of any references to the quotation you attribute to him.


isher
 
The thought of acoustic wave made me think of a time when I was a senior in High School and I had a Remington 7mm Magnum rifle. I was at my cousins and we were out and going to look for something to use as target practice (he lives in the country in Nebraska) and we saw a feral cat sneaking through the grass. Finally he came to an open spot and just lay there, so my cousin took a shot at him. Died instantly. We've seen jack rabbits shot with this rifle and usually strings them out a bit, but this cat simply folded. We look and there was not a trace of blood on him, no scratch no would visible. His eyes were glazed over and not breathing. Strangest thing I ever say. Only thing I could come up with was the sonic boom was so intense it caused brain hemorrhaging. Still don't know to this day about that, but because I saw it with my own eyes, I know it to be true. The rifle was sighted in for 200 yards, and Rick was only about 25 feet away, and may have flinched a bit, shooting high. He missed, but the cat died anyway.
 
Come on Ryan, you should at least try a google scholar search before floating the hypothesis that our ballistic pressure wave work has not gained the credibility needed for publication in scientific venues. Several important papers were published in 2007, including

No, no, I meant run out on a rail, just on this forum. Last I remember, evidence, published work, etc., counted for nothing here. :p
 
Caliber A, Caliber B, Caliber C... And so it goes.

I own and carry, .22LR , .380 ACP. 9mm, 40 SW and .45 ACP. I have never felt naked, even with the lowly .22 LR.

I've said it many times... The only magic bullet is the one that causes CNS disruption.
 
Why so much concern with "one shot stops"? Who is greeting that armed intruder with one bullet, and then pausing to see if it stopped him before firing again? If I am forced to fire on an intruder, I will have fired 3 shots before he falls even if the first shot killed him. Drawing your gun and firing the first shot will usually take much longer than pumping out an additional 2 or more rounds. If I only had a single-shot weapon, I would definitely want the biggest, baddest bullet I could handle, but I certainly don't feel undergunned when carrying a compact 9mm with 10 or more rounds available.
 
Nobody with half a brain would stop shooting before his attacker is down and no danger.

But if you look at accounts of actual shootings, you can see where there are a lot of misses. You can't guarentee you'll get three hits out of three shots -- you'll be lucky to get one.

So, yes, keep shooting. But carry a gun that has a good chance of doing the job with the hits you actually get.
 
I must agree that the read was very interesting. However, the content was heavily laced with bias in favor of the .45 caliber bullet.

Like some of the other posters have stated, any caliber you feel comfortable with is the caliber you should rely on in time of need. For myself, I feel totally confident with my 9mm and my 9 Mak. I don't feel the need to carry a larger caliber.
 
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