Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Guess so. Probably an impasse, then.
OC vs. CC Best PR move
- Thread starter coolluke01
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coolluke01
Member
On the issue of government infringement it may very well be. I have enjoyed the debate over the PR issue. I really contemplated OC'ing tonight when we went out for dinner. I don't have a holster that holds the gun close to my side and it carries kinda high. I use a Fobus paddle holder for IDPA and Steel action, but it's not the best EDC holster.
I guess it wouldn't have been true OC as I was wearing a jacket. I did take it off in the restaurant though. You guys are being a bad influence on me. lol
I guess it wouldn't have been true OC as I was wearing a jacket. I did take it off in the restaurant though. You guys are being a bad influence on me. lol
NavyLCDR
member
Yep. 'Cause we all know that criminals obey laws and signs. Here's a little bit of history. Do you know who and why the first pistol permit system was put in place by/for? "Big" Tim Sullivan, New York state senator in 1911. He was a crime boss. His gangs were complaining because it was getting tougher for them to commit crimes without people doing things like shooting at them. So, in order to increase business and make it easier for his gangs to accomplish their goals, he created and pushed to passing the New York pistol permit system which still exists, almost unchanged today.
That way those who remained interested in obeying the law would have to apply and pay for a permit to carry a gun. Oh, and how convenient that it was at the discretion of the local judge, whom for a small cut of the profits would simply deny the permits to those most likely to be victims of the criminal gangs.
Yeah, the little piece of paper that you have to pay the government for sure makes us safer. All it does is create one more hurdle that a law abiding citizen must cross in order to be able to defend themselves. The criminals are going to continue to hide their guns anyway.
We are apparently going to have to agree to disagree what makes us safer. You believe it is government regulation and licensing. I believe it is a gun in the hands of a law abiding citizen.
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coolluke01
Member
Crime boss! Wow that's great. I didn't know that.
I can see how a system like this could be for the benefit of those that control the law. I would say that good laws can only be good if those that enforce them are not corrupt.
I know that the criminals may not really care. Although the cost of getting caught with a illegally carried handgun are steeper because of the licensing procedures we have.
I think my friend from MS with his piece of paper handed to him could be a very dangerous thing. Fees ok maybe they should just pay for them from the money the state gets from me in taxes, but I think training is a good thing.
I know people that should never carry guns. Their attitude, law breaking activities, general disregard for most law. They wouldn't even think of carrying a gun without a license. They would be too afraid of getting caught and suffering the penalties. Laws do deter. Saying the criminals will carry no matter what is a defeatist thing to say.
I think we may have moved from PR of OC vs CC to procedures of states good or bad. Can I encourage a course shift?
What do you guys think? Should the Fed mandate standardized training? Should it still be up to the states to decide the procedure and training requirements? What about the Fed reciprocity act? Do you want untrained hillbillies carrying in your state? What are the requirements in your state?
I can see how a system like this could be for the benefit of those that control the law. I would say that good laws can only be good if those that enforce them are not corrupt.
I know that the criminals may not really care. Although the cost of getting caught with a illegally carried handgun are steeper because of the licensing procedures we have.
I think my friend from MS with his piece of paper handed to him could be a very dangerous thing. Fees ok maybe they should just pay for them from the money the state gets from me in taxes, but I think training is a good thing.
I know people that should never carry guns. Their attitude, law breaking activities, general disregard for most law. They wouldn't even think of carrying a gun without a license. They would be too afraid of getting caught and suffering the penalties. Laws do deter. Saying the criminals will carry no matter what is a defeatist thing to say.
I think we may have moved from PR of OC vs CC to procedures of states good or bad. Can I encourage a course shift?
What do you guys think? Should the Fed mandate standardized training? Should it still be up to the states to decide the procedure and training requirements? What about the Fed reciprocity act? Do you want untrained hillbillies carrying in your state? What are the requirements in your state?
NavyLCDR
member
coolluke01 said:
How about if we make the cost of using a gun to commit a crime with carry a steeper cost, rather than making it illegal to carry a gun (without big brother government's permission)? That way the law only affects and hinders those that it should affect and hinder - the criminal, not the citizen who desires to obey the law.
coolluke01 said:
Absolutely not.
No. The 2nd Amendment has been incorporated as applying to the states as well as to the Federal government by way of the 14th Amendment. The 2nd Amendment should be preemptive.
No. It's not what I want. But it is what I will accept because the untrained hillbilly has just as much right to self defense as the trained hillbilly does.
In Washington, there is no license required at all to openly carry a loaded handgun in public outside a vehicle. If you want the option of concealing, or keeping it loaded in a vehicle, you can pay $55.25 to your local LEO agency who, within 30 days for residents or 90 days for nonresidents, must issue the permit to anyone who meets the Federal requirements for legal possession of a firearm. No training required.
Funny how we don't have blood running in the streets from all the untrained hillbillies running around with guns in Washington.
I would think "untrained hillbillies" to be an oxymoron. I mean, can one even be a hillbilly and not have substantial skill with firearms?
Anyway, to your point, people are accountable for their actions whether or not they have been trained in a state-approved course on state laws governing the right to keep an bear arms. If folks don't take the initiative to learn and abide by those laws on their own, they risk being found on the wrong side of them.
The issue comes down to whether it's better for society to allow many millions more to keep and bear arms as would be case if every state practiced constitutional carry, or whether we're safer requiring permits to exercise our rights, but making those permits relatively uncommon because of the procedural and economic hurdles to obtaining them.
If every state practiced constitutional carry, what would be the crime deterrent effect, and how would that balance against the multitudes of "untrained hillbillies" acting irresponsibly when going to town to sell their moonshine.*
If state carry permits remain rare, how much better are those few permit holders trained, and how much crime deterrence do we give up because so few good guys are carrying?
I don't know the answer to these questions, but my opinion is that society is safer overall with fewer restrictions on our rights. I think that was the opinion of our Founding Fathers as well. I also think the crime rates in states practicing constitutional carry should tell us something about which method is best. Furthermore, if we need a state permit to exercise a right, I think our definition of a "right" needs to re-examined.
* I come from a long line of TN and KY hillbillies, only a few of which sold moonshine
sgtstryker
Member
At one time in Ga. you were allowed to OC without permit. To carry concealed you were required to get a "toter's permit" . To simplify things, they are combined now. You pay more for CCW license in order to legally do both. The process is fluent with the changing legislative actions each year. Personally I CC always. Have for years. I do OC when hunting or doing chores around hunt camp, etc. But, alot of the OC I do see is attention grabbing. The LEO opinions vary by county, there are abuses daily of persons rights in both matters, according to online forums here. IMO we should cover each others backs, support each others opinions and continue to protect our RKBA. Lets agree to disagree..
I live in Michigan, OC is legal, seen a few people carry that way
and not many issues reported now.
That said, a few not so bright people ( in my mind) decided to
carry a long gun in a few places nobody would expect to see one.
This has created bad PR, no doubt about it. Caused a court case
that so far has set back some carry rights. Not totally up on it as far
as providing cites and links but it was the result of OCing a shotgun
in a Lansing area library.
Sometimes the nail that sticks up gets hammered down!
Dave
and not many issues reported now.
That said, a few not so bright people ( in my mind) decided to
carry a long gun in a few places nobody would expect to see one.
This has created bad PR, no doubt about it. Caused a court case
that so far has set back some carry rights. Not totally up on it as far
as providing cites and links but it was the result of OCing a shotgun
in a Lansing area library.
Sometimes the nail that sticks up gets hammered down!
Dave
As far as open carry vs. concealed I don't know which is the best PR wise. I personally choose to concealed carry most of the time. Sometimes I am guilty of not concealing as well as I possibly could. The only time I usually open carry is if I am on my way to or from the woods to hunt.
coolluke-If the fed were to mandate training who would decide what level of training is necessary. The politicians could very likely decide that the such a high level of training is necessary that very few but the ultra rich would have the resources to fulfill it. I live in Georgia & we do not require training to receive a Georgia Weapons License. To the best of my knowledge incidents involving licensed carrier in Georgia are few & far between. Also while I do believe training is a good thing it does not insure that the person receiving it will put it to proper use. This past week a Navy Seal shot himself in the head showing off for a woman. I would think he has probably received a higher level of training than the majority of concealed carriers. Here is the link http://news.yahoo.com/police-navy-seal-accidentally-shoots-self-022731883.html
coolluke-If the fed were to mandate training who would decide what level of training is necessary. The politicians could very likely decide that the such a high level of training is necessary that very few but the ultra rich would have the resources to fulfill it. I live in Georgia & we do not require training to receive a Georgia Weapons License. To the best of my knowledge incidents involving licensed carrier in Georgia are few & far between. Also while I do believe training is a good thing it does not insure that the person receiving it will put it to proper use. This past week a Navy Seal shot himself in the head showing off for a woman. I would think he has probably received a higher level of training than the majority of concealed carriers. Here is the link http://news.yahoo.com/police-navy-seal-accidentally-shoots-self-022731883.html
Lawdawg45
Member
I'd personally prefer that everyone have the proper training to carry a weapon, but then you're asking the Government to step in and establish a minimum training level/ability, and we know what a mess that would be. As far as your "hillbillies" comment, as others have said this is probably one of the most weapons savvy groups around, and official structured training is no guarantee of safety. A Navy Seal just fatally shot himself in the head with what he thought was an unloaded handgun.
LD
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Could we do the same with ballots? More damage is done from poor voting than poor gun handling.
I live in Texas and can't OC. I wish I could, I would do it often. I think that OC'ing in a responsible manner won't even be noticed....and if it is, it will be mostly positive.
I also feel that licensing is by definition infringment. I know several folks that don't have a CHL because of the cost associated with it. I can own an NFA item, but I have to do a bunch of paperwork, pay a premium for the extra hassle (or limited supply), and pay a tax. I like the old way of ordering a Thompson out of the Sears catalog.
I also feel that licensing is by definition infringment. I know several folks that don't have a CHL because of the cost associated with it. I can own an NFA item, but I have to do a bunch of paperwork, pay a premium for the extra hassle (or limited supply), and pay a tax. I like the old way of ordering a Thompson out of the Sears catalog.
BellyUpFish
Member
- Joined
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I think OCing when you're the only one is like painting a bullseye on yourself.
I CC and am able to OC, but until most people have a weapon hanging off their hip, I'll conceal mine.
I CC and am able to OC, but until most people have a weapon hanging off their hip, I'll conceal mine.
qcsmitty
Member
Nothing says "shoot me first" like OC. It's a tactical issue for me. I most likely will only OC in the woods. Just my two cents.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
ONE more time: "That's fine, but we're trying to stick to the PR angle here."
NavyLCDR
member
Sam1911 said:
Oh, come one Sam, you mean we can't post the facts that disprove the unsubstantiated theories? Dang it.
sgtstryker
Member
Howdy. I personally feel OC'ing is a bad PR move. But, as it is legal here, do your thing, I will support you. I don't support Fed or state mandated training as a requirement for a Georgia Weapons License, as it is now called. A national reciprocity law would go a long way to simplify movement across the country for the law abiding folks that carry. Believe me, there are hillbillies toting in Ga. And, if you visit GeorgiaPacking.org you can read numerous accounts of law abiding folks being hassled for carrying legally...
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Yeah, yeah. You know how many threads we've had on the tactical, er...strategic?, issues. They tend to all go the same way.
This one has had a different focus that we can dissect and debate the merits of but only because we didn't get wound up over "element of surprise" -vs.- "element of deterrence" etc. I'm sure there are one or two (dozen) threads we could reawaken to jump back into that argument.
NavyLCDR
member
Sam1911 said:
The same could be said of the "training and permit required" topic as well.
Oh dear. On the bright side, you reminded me of the Monty Python sketch where the Facotti brothers try to shake down Her Majesty's Armed Forces for protection money: "You've got a nice army base here, Colonel. We wouldn't want anything to happen to it."
However, I personally wouldn't want the government's "protection" at the expense of my rights, even if I thought they had a snowball's chance of protecting me and my family properly, which I absolutely don't.
Lawdawg45
Member
Personally, we could use a few more threads on the Taurus Judge or perhaps the .38/9mm debate.
LD
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
coolluke01 said:
You should probably read this. Warren v. District of Columbia. In part it says:
Supreme Court said:
So tell me again what "protection" it is that you are buying when you pay your fee?
Seems I read more stories about trained cops doing stupid things with guns than general folks. Are you saying that a NICS check somehow has the ability to weed out stupidity? If so it doesn't seem to be working.
Guns are not supposed to be PR tools. I'll say it again, the best PR is for law abiding citizens to simply continue to be law abiding.... while armed.
I have OC'd and have noticed that as has been mentioned your looks,and the looks of your gun, have more to do with theperception than the fact there is a gun exposed. When i carried a 1911 with a laser in a thigh rig and had hair halfway down my back I was leered at and questioned by LEOs. Same gun,with wood grips and laseer removed in same holster movedup to hip,same kid after a visit to pro cuts and swapping my metalica shirt for a polo VIOLA I was the poster boy for OC.
All that being said, I shouldnt have to worry about my PR status, to carrya weapon is my right and how i carry mychoice. ( i CC...less hassle)
D3
All that being said, I shouldnt have to worry about my PR status, to carrya weapon is my right and how i carry mychoice. ( i CC...less hassle)
D3
NavyLCDR
member
taraquian said:
What I think is really hilarious is when a police officer or business management will ask a person to cover their gun up because "it" is making people uncomfortable? Really?!? HELLLLLOOOOO! The gun IS STILL THERE!
Isn't it funny how to some people, even "pro-gun" people, they are more comfortable with the guns around them that they can't see rather than those they can see and know about? I would rather everybody open carried, that way I would have a pretty good idea who the good guys were, and I could single out those not carrying to keep my good eye on. Like the "old west"!
coolluke01
Member
Out of sight out of mind. It's funny to us because we know the gun is still just as effective. If covering it up makes them feel better then do it. A feeling doesn't have to be based in reality. It's how they feel. We have to bare with the scruples of the weak.
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