Odd Signs at a Gun Show

[Monac]

Under federal law, the US Government is prohibited from maintaining a list of gun owners or list records of who owns a specific gun. Many states also have similar laws; my home State of Florida does, although statutes allow the buyer and seller to maintain a bill of sale with buyer/seller and gun info.

Photography or videotaping of individuals purchasing firearms could possibly be interpreted as assembling a list of guns owners, hence the dealer may have posted such a sign to discourage an invasion of privacy and violation of anonymity the laws provide for gun owners.

Thanks, SterlingBullet. That is the closest anyone has come to a specific reason for this seller's claim that taking pictures at his table was prohibited by Federal law. But as others have suggested, it sounds like his own personal, and rather extreme, interpretation of a law. I think his odds of getting anyone prosecuted that way are slim to none. Ejected from the show? Yes, certainly. Put behind bars in a Federal prison? Fat chance, IMO.

 

[RickD427]

Under federal law, the US Government is prohibited from maintaining a list of gun owners or list records of who owns a specific gun. Many states also have similar laws; my home State of Florida does, although statutes allow the buyer and seller to maintain a bill of sale with buyer/seller and gun info.

Photography or videotaping of individuals purchasing firearms could possibly be interpreted as assembling a list of guns owners, hence the dealer may have posted such a sign to discourage an invasion of privacy and violation of anonymity the laws provide for gun owners.

This sounds like a bit of a stretch.

There is no federal law that prohibits the federal government from maintaining a list of gun owners, or a list of owners of a specific gun type. If you believe that such a law exists, then please cite it.

Your search for such any such (non-existent) law will likely take you to Title 18 of the United States Code, Section 926 (Commonly referred to a the "Firearm Owner's Protection Act", in part the FOPA also impacts other statutes). Here is the pertinent text:

"No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary’s [1] authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation."
​

Please note that prohibition on such databases only applies to "records required to be maintained under this chapter." When you look at Chapter 44 of Title 18, you see that those records are the contents of the BATF Form 4473.

The BATF remains free to assemble records of ownership derived from sources other that records required under Chapter 44. For example, the BATF can assemble records from state sales, as well as business records from manufacturers.

 

[.308 Norma]

A FFL in Florida may not transfer a firearm into the possession of an out-of-state resident.

Really? Not even a "long" gun like a rifle or shotgun?
As an Idaho resident, I've purchased rifles in both bordering states of Utah and Montana. I knew the dealers in both states couldn't legally sell me handguns, but buying rifles from them was as simple as buying rifles from a FFL dealers here in Idaho.

 

[wiscoaster]

Under federal law, the US Government is prohibited from maintaining a list of gun owners or list records of who owns a specific gun.

They're prohibited from maintaining a digitally-searchable Federal registry. If you think they don't have a "list", you're naive. They've been digitizing various records for years. You may not call it a registry but it doesn't take much to make such a database digitally-searchable.

...The BATF remains free to assemble records of ownership derived from sources other that records required under Chapter 44. For example, the BATF can assemble records from state sales, as well as business records from manufacturers.

... and, regardless of the way the law may be interpreted, they've also been collecting FFL 4473 records in digitized form as well.

 

[crstrode]

It is not the signs that are odd, it is the people posting them.

They are a danger to themselves and others.

 

[RickD427]

Really? Not even a "long" gun like a rifle or shotgun?
As an Idaho resident, I've purchased rifles in both bordering states of Utah and Montana. I knew the dealers in both states couldn't legally sell me a handgun, but buying rifles from them was as simple as buying rifles from a FFL dealer here in Idaho.

You're quite correct that an FFL can transfer a Shotgun or Rifle to a resident of a different state. Please refer to 18 USC 922(b)(3). That section used to only permit transfer to residents of adjoining states, but now permits transfer to residents of any state. But the issue is that the section also requires that the sale comply with the state laws of both states.

During my many years as a California resident, that restriction prohibited me from purchasing any rifle or shotgun outside of California. The reason being that California law required the completion of "Dealer Report of Sale" to the state and the state only allowed dealers with a California license to submit the report. As to "SterlingBullet's" point, there may be a Florida state statute that would prevent the transfer.

 

[Monac]

You're quite correct that an FFL can transfer a Shotgun or Rifle to a resident of a different state. Please refer to 18 USC 922(b)(3). That section used to only permit transfer to residents of adjoining states, but now permits transfer to residents of any state. But the issue is that the section also requires that the sale comply with the state laws of both states.

During my many years as a California resident, that restriction prohibited me from purchasing any rifle or shotgun outside of California. The reason being that California law required the completion of "Dealer Report of Sale" to the state and the state only allowed dealers with a California license to submit the report. As to "SterlingBullet's" point, there may be a Florida state statute that would prevent the transfer.

Maybe Illinois has something like that too. That may be the reason for the sign about Illinois residents that I mentioned in my original post.

 

[Archie]

With all due respect the folks I have met that run the gun shows will probably never hold a high ranking government office or be college professors.

That is a correct statement. The people that organize gun shows have too much intelligence and honesty to be either a HRGO (official) or a college professor.

 

[Archie]

I am not familiar with a Federal Law of this nature - other than in federally owned (or operated) property. Just for the record, I was a federal lawman for twenty-eight years and have a good grasp of federal law.

Individuals or organizations do have the right to limit actions for their own preference. It is private property and not public access like a sidewalk.

I do know most gun show promoters and vendors are rather touchy about those persons who would take pictures and then misrepresent the truth of what is shown and what is being done. I do know most gun show attenders are not interested in having their picture plastered on Left Wing Smear sites as homicidal maniacs or school killers.

If you take a picture just to flaunt the organizers or vendors, keep track of who suggested to do it. Then you'll know who to blame when you get thrown out on your ear without any film.

 

[RickD427]

I am not familiar with a Federal Law of this nature - other than in federally owned (or operated) property. Just for the record, I was a federal lawman for twenty-eight years and have a good grasp of federal law.

Individuals or organizations do have the right to limit actions for their own preference. It is private property and not public access like a sidewalk.

I do know most gun show promoters and vendors are rather touchy about those persons who would take pictures and then misrepresent the truth of what is shown and what is being done. I do know most gun show attenders are not interested in having their picture plastered on Left Wing Smear sites as homicidal maniacs or school killers.

If you take a picture just to flaunt the organizers or vendors, keep track of who suggested to do it. Then you'll know who to blame when you get thrown out on your ear without any film.

I agree with you on the point that the owner of private property has the right to dictate the use of that private property. The Gun Show operators have every right to prohibit photography if they choose to do so.

But the OP's claim was that the operators claimed that there was a violation of federal law if photographs were taken on the property. I can't think of any basis for for the private property owners desire to ban photography would create a violation of federal law.

The normally available recourse for a property owner faced with a visitor who has made themselves unwelcome is to eject them from the property (with their film). But a private person is without legal standing to seize the film. My LEO service was in Southern California and I've seen many Security Guards/Personal Bodyguards booked on "Grand Theft from Person" or on "Robbery" charges for snatching cameras and film.

 

[Jimbo80]

There should be a Federal Law about misrepresentation of Federal Law. It obviously causes a large percentage of people undue stress. The CDC needs to get on this public health scourge.

 

[old lady new shooter]

If everyone there is disarmed, why would you need to be armed? I could agree, it's a suspension of your 2A rights, but so is the limitations to carrying in other venues. This is more for safety reasons, because the shotgun incident I related is far from the only time there has been a negligent discharge at that gun show. If people are unable to safely carry, and LEAVE their CC in the holster when there is no reason to draw it, then maybe they should be disarmed. I have no problems personally, with unloading my CC at a gun show; actually, I don't carry when I go, knowing I have to unload it.

I would carry, unload it to go inside, and reload on leaving, because who knows what might happen on the way home.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Many FFLs will not ship firearms to New York, New Jersey, California or other blue states because of the onerous extra regulatory hurdles to complete the transfers.

I've also seen notices on gunbroker advising prospective buyers to make sure ahead of time that the firearm they want to buy is legal in their state of residence because it will cost them to have it shipped and then returned.

When I was still in Cali I wanted to buy an old Model 36 a friend in another state wanted to sell... called my FFL.. who called back a couple of days later and said nope, it wasn't on the Cali DOJ list. So I just sent my friend the money and we waited on the transfer until I moved to AZ. Ever since then I call it my "assault revolver" LOL.

 

[bangswitch]

I would carry, unload it to go inside, and reload on leaving, because who knows what might happen on the way home.

That's what I meant, I lock it in my vehicle until I leave.

 

[old lady new shooter]

That's what I meant, I lock it in my vehicle until I leave.

I wouldn't leave it in the car, I would wear it empty.

 

[Archie]

I leave my carry gun in the car, but I have a bolted down 'lock box' underneath a seat. Like most everything, it can be defeated, but one would have to come prepared.

 

[JR24]

Interesting. Haven’t been to a gun show in 10 years. I occasionally am tempted when one comes to the nearby city, but it’s a drive and I never have any money laying around anyway.

I do recall a sign at the Ammo Box in Sun Prairie on the AR15 racks that always made me chuckle. It was something like “if you pull the trigger, you bought it. If you break it down I shoot you”. Guy at the counter was a character, but nice enough once you bought a few guns.

 

[CapnMac]

I wouldn't leave it in the car, I would wear it empty.

The (all too heated) debate was on being without ammo from the door of the venue across what can be vast (not always well lit) parking lots to the "safety" of one's vehicle.

There should be a Federal Law about misrepresentation of Federal Law.

There is a problem that, given the thousands of existing Federal laws, it's all too easy to presume something is a law than not.

 

[wiscoaster]

There should be a Federal Law about misrepresentation of Federal Law. ....

Ah hah ... yet one more law that can be interpreted, misinterpreted, and therefore litigated. You wouldn't happen to be an attorney, by any chance?

 

[hso]

One of the sellers had several signs up at his table. ...

But another sign said "Videography, include photography, is PROHIBITED by Federal Law."

Obviously not a retired constitutional lawyer (and didn't play one on TV).

 

[old lady new shooter]

The (all too heated) debate was on being without ammo from the door of the venue across what can be vast (not always well lit) parking lots to the "safety" of one's vehicle.

If that were the case and they wouldn't let me bring in ammo separately (or maybe leave it with the person at the door?) I would probably try to get someone to walk me to my car. But honestly I was thinking more of the long drive home.

 

[Jim Watson]

I would carry, unload it to go inside, and reload on leaving, because who knows what might happen on the way home.

Had a guy wing himself in the process after a show near here.
See sig line.

 

[bangswitch]

I wouldn't leave it in the car, I would wear it empty.

It's a matter of choice and circumstance. The parking area at the gun show is less than 50 yards from the door and the area between is open and uncluttered. There are a crapton of people milling about, plenty of deterrent for someone planning a rip-off. And I don't see a point wearing an unloaded gun anywhere. What would I do, throw it?

 

[old lady new shooter]

It's a matter of choice and circumstance. The parking area at the gun show is less than 50 yards from the door and the area between is open and uncluttered. There are a crapton of people milling about, plenty of deterrent for someone planning a rip-off. And I don't see a point wearing an unloaded gun anywhere. What would I do, throw it?

I don't care to leave $1000 in my car for someone to take.