Offer received from local dealer for gun collection.

[JohnKSa]

John, is there anything you do find insulting?

Of course. All kinds of things. But not someone saying they aren't willing to pay as much of THEIR money for something I am selling as I think they should.

How is this not insulting?

Because it isn't. Look up the definition of insult. A buyer doesn't have scornful abuse or disrespect of a seller just because they want to make a bigger profit on a resale or just because they place a higher value on their money or a lower value on the item for sale than the seller does. They aren't abusing the seller just because they want to pay less than the seller wants to get. The seller still has their property and has not been diminished in any way, nor has the value of the property been reduced. It's just a disagreement about a price, not abuse or scorn or disrespect.

LOL, the thread is turning into an exercise in justification of shady opportunists.

None of my posts could be accurately described that way. I've already said straight up that "coercing someone into selling or taking advantage of someone's desperation, is a different thing entirely than a difference of opinion on price.

So the focus of thread is whether the offer made is 80% of retail and as expressed by many members, offer made obviously is not.

Agree. And I've said, as others have, that he shouldn't say that because it's not true. I was responding to a post by someone other than the OP stating that making a low offer is an insult to the seller. Which it simply is not. Sure, a seller can take offense, but if they do, that's their own choice.

 

[LiveLife]

I guess the OP can always make a counter-offer or consider other options to sell the 80+ guns.

 

[silicosys4]

There are good fair dealers out there. I still believe people are good. The OP knows the value of his guns. I think this post is to let us gun collectors not to leave your guns to Probate. Have the value of your guns written down or have a competent trustee handle a valuable collection.

What I’m trying to get at is… everyone with a sizable collection should talk to a Will & Estate Lawyer

Thats basically my point.
There are good, fair dealers out there.
A few weeks after I spoke with the dealer who is the subject of this thread, I spoke with a gentleman who does a lot of high end consignment work on online auctions. I packed up the good stuff and drove down to meet him at his house.
The difference between them was night and day. 15% consignment fee, knew exactly what I had and what it was worth, knew what to do to get top dollar for my guns.....Customer service matters.
The first guy tried telling me that my SS-issued RSHA ppk was fake because "The SS always marked their guns with death head or SS runes".
The second guy looked at it, pulled out a $200 book dedicated to RSHA ppk's, authenticated it on the spot, then offered me a set of WW2 grips and a WW2 magazine to complete the package...for $100. I insisted on paying $200. Grips alone sell for $300+
He helped me put together a package for a gun owned by a historical figure...helped me source a copy of the persons autobiography to include with the gun.
There are ways to do things that let everyone feel like they are coming out ahead.

 

[JohnKSa]

I guess the OP can always make a counter-offer or consider other options to sell the 80+ guns.

Of course.

The first guy tried telling me that my SS-issued RSHA ppk was fake because "The SS always marked their guns with death head or SS runes".

Yup, that's a problem. Either he was trying to mislead or he was misinformed himself and acting as if he were an authority when he was not. Neither is a good thing.

 

[wayneinFL]

I'm not bothered by the FFL trying to make a profit. If I sell a gun to a dealer, I know on the front end that's why he's buying it. I would even expect a little "puffery" in the FFL's statements about what great deals they give. That said, I do find it a little sketchy for the FFL to spend time telling the OP that he gives 80% of retail, when the numbers do not even come close to bearing that out (in my estimation).

If he had said he gives up to 80% of retail on a piece he can move fast, I would have maybe believed it. If he told me he could afford to tie up cash on a collection of 80 quality guns for exactly 80% of retail, and sell them off over the course of months, that's too good to be true. The pizza shop in our town claims to have the world's best pizza, and I don't believe them either.

The prices I see here are not out of line for what I would expect a dealer to pay for a lot of stock at one time. Most of them would feel generous giving you 50% on trade for a single pistol.

 

[silicosys4]

Of course. All kinds of things. But not someone saying they aren't willing to pay as much of THEIR money for something I am selling as I think they should.

Because it isn't. Look up the definition of insult. A buyer doesn't have scornful abuse or disrespect of a seller just because they want to make a bigger profit on a resale or just because they place a higher value on their money or a lower value on the item for sale than the seller does. They aren't abusing the seller just because they want to pay less than the seller wants to get. The seller still has their property and has not been diminished in any way, nor has the value of the property been reduced. It's just a disagreement about a price, not abuse or scorn or disrespect.

None of my posts could be accurately described that way. I've already said straight up that "coercing someone into selling or taking advantage of someone's desperation, is a different thing entirely than a difference of opinion on price.
Agree. And I've said, as others have, that he shouldn't say that because it's not true. I was responding to a post by someone other than the OP stating that making a low offer is an insult to the seller. Which it simply is not. Sure, a seller can take offense, but if they do, that's their own choice.

I get there are profits to be made.
The rub for me comes when someone expects me to take a significant loss so they can make a significant profit. I.E. offering me $1k for a SAA that will sell almost instantly for $2300-$2500. There is a point at which offers are insulting because of the amount of money you are taking from my pocket and putting into your own. When you work out of your garage and expect to make more money off the sale of the gun than I do....that's an insult.
I can sell the cream of my collection for a pittance. I don't need a dealers help for that. The whole point of me bringing a collection to a dealer to sell is to receive a service I cannot provide for myself.

 

[Jim Watson]

I saw one the other way yesterday, a dealer offered more than the Sense of the Internet. Either he was seeing something we were not or he did not know as much as he thought he did.

I think the OP has good enough guns to send to RIA for auction.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Don’t be a crappy human! everyone knows right from wrong. You leave this world with just your name. Need to feed your family, work harder!

 

[Scout21]

offered me what, 40% of retail, while he's telling me he pays 80%

This seems to be the primary reason people are upset. To me that seemed like a blatant bait and switch, assuming your descriptions and condition grading was reasonably accurate.

I'd be pissed if I had a gun that was going for $1,000 on the secondary market and was told that I'd get 80% for it, just to be offered 40% when I showed up. If the guy was going to offer 40% from the very beginning he should have disclosed that information. If he told me upfront that he was only going to give me 40% due to overhead and room for profit I would understand, but respectfully decline.

OP wasting his time due to the FFL blowing smoke up his butt is what's irritating.

 

[rust collector]

My LGS will review estate guns, estimate their market value, and include an offer to purchase at a lower value. They are in business to make a profit. Their time and expertise are used to develop the market value. Their compensation in the early stages of the process is access to used guns, some of which are in high demand. What they do with that access is entirely up to them. For the owner, (s)he gets basic information and a one-and-done liquidation option. That has value as well, and neither party is acting under duress. Many guns are transferred in this manner for these reasons, and the LGS customers benefit by access to these guns without the hassle of auctions or following up sales ads.

Is it shocking that a dealer wants to acquire guns at a low price and sell high? In most cases, even elderly widows have friends and family that would be happy to receive the guns for little or nothing. They also have friends that can help them understand what they have and the options for handling them.

Puffery has always been with us and always will be. Most of us with some time on the clock will get second opinions, and if we don't, shame on us.

 

[tarosean]

I am guessing the % and descriptions are from the OP and not the FFL.
Time is money and he wasted a lot of your time.

I'll go $355.00 on the USP as long as those are not 10rd mags..

 

[Riomouse911]

The OP can always look to consign guns, where the OP sets the price he wants to get and the dealer takes a cut.

Here in the Peoples Republik, folks do that all the time. It takes longer to get your $$, since you don’t get paid until after the sale clears, but the OP will get more from his guns than these 50% offers for about the same amount of hassle.

Just s thought.

Stay safe.

 

[starling]

Thats basically my point.
There are good, fair dealers out there.
A few weeks after I spoke with the dealer who is the subject of this thread, I spoke with a gentleman who does a lot of high end consignment work on online auctions. I packed up the good stuff and drove down to meet him at his house.
The difference between them was night and day. 15% consignment fee, knew exactly what I had and what it was worth, knew what to do to get top dollar for my guns.....Customer service matters.
The first guy tried telling me that my SS-issued RSHA ppk was fake because "The SS always marked their guns with death head or SS runes".
The second guy looked at it, pulled out a $200 book dedicated to RSHA ppk's, authenticated it on the spot, then offered me a set of WW2 grips and a WW2 magazine to complete the package...for $100. I insisted on paying $200. Grips alone sell for $300+
He helped me put together a package for a gun owned by a historical figure...helped me source a copy of the persons autobiography to include with the gun.
There are ways to do things that let everyone feel like they are coming out ahead.

Yes 100%. There are good dealers out there. The Good ones tend to stick around. Fellas like this guy dont. Im not sure why people are so intent on justifying his home brew operations and motives with that of a storefront but whatever.

I use the same dealer on everything. Because of that we have a mutual trust and are honest with each other. He doesnt try to take advantage of me therefor I am extremely loyal to his business and even recommend him to everyone in our local community. He (young guy) has done very well while other shady startups in the area normally fall by the wayside within 2 years of opening a storefront. And my FFL has real overhead as he has expanded into a second facility. He also started with nothing doing it from home and was able to grow into a much bigger operation now with a full staff. I was with him early on because my last FFL (very ethical elderly gentlemen who shockingly was retired LE) had to close shop do to health reason and eventually died... and yes I went to the funeral. My current FFL was a result of me calling FFLs in the local area (listed on Gunbroker) and I explained the situation and desire for an FFL who respected customer loyalty. I tend to be very up front and dont play games with people. Transfers have always been free of charge. Understanding that he has bills to pay and I want him to do well I have always payed him for transfers anyway.

My very first dealer back in the late 80s was also a home based FFL. Great guy that chose to do business in an ethical manner. I was in middle school and he became very much a mentor to me on firearms as he was an ex machinist and had the ability to build firearms from scratch, gunsmith etc. etc. He loaned me books on firearms and would take the time to teach a youngster about the firearms industry and what to watch out for. FFLs like the one in this thread were part of that. That first FFL of mine was very highly regarded in our community amongst enthusiasts.

Theres lots of ways to do business. Going the shark route typically results in failed business unless you are extremely connected to some very powerful and devious people in this world. The "its just business" model doesnt fly with everyone these days. Good People dont like being taken advantage of and Good business owners dont like taking advatage of their customers either.

There are good people and good FFLs out there. When you find one stick with them. Its worth it. A major reason I became such a lover of firearms is because I always surrounded myself with good people. Its important to have high standards and leave the trash out of the equation. Sometimes I stop into new shops to see what the Owner is like. Theres more good ones out there than people think but there is also some real trashy people with low character. Find the good ones.

 

[I6turbo]

My initial reaction was that those prices are waay too low, but upon further thought, not really.

Consider: What would I give for each gun if I had to offer to buy the entire lot for resale? Answer: probably little if any more than he's offering. Are there a few on there worth a lot more? Yes, but most of the guns aren't special or unsual. In fact, I would not buy the entire lot for what he's offering, primarily BECAUSE I don't want to keep them, and selling them is a PITA that I don't need. Would I cherry pick a few of them? Yes. But that's not what this guy is offering to do and not what the seller is usually looking for.

Take the CZ 75B, for example, which may be representative of a lot of guns on the list. $275 looks like a steal and a low-ball offer for the gun, and I'd buy it in a second to add it to my collection. But how much is it worth to someone who needs to re-sell it? That same gun on GB would probably bring $430-$450 or so if someone takes the time to make some nice photos and properly post the gun for sale. Subtract a few bucks for fees and let's suppose you get $410 after the sale. So, that's $135 for your troubles of tying your money up in the gun, checking it out to be sure it's not defective, probably cleaning it, making nice photos (if you want it to sell at a decent price), posting the ad, answering any bidder questions, receiving payment, packing the gun up, and shipping it. That's probably at 3-4 hours of time investment there. Assuming you're able to charge enough shipping to cover the actual cost, you may be making $35-$40/hour for your diligent work. That's not bad, but it's not by any means highway robbery when you consider the financial investment of having your money tied up for likely weeks, and earning it back requires risk and effort.

And what if some of the guns turn out to have serious hidden issues? What does that do for your money-making scheme?

And if you look at it from the "widow's" perspective, it's much more enticing to sell the guns off in the single lot. It'd take her hours and hours to do the research and preparation to sell the guns on GB, handle the packing and shipping, etc. End result, the per-hour pay-out would be perhaps half or one-third what it'd be for the dealer guy who knows what he's doing.

 

[sgt127]

I have neither the time nor inclination to search every ended auction but, he offered $300 for a Sig P229 .40..






He would have lost a lot of money on that.

Some auctions, on the same gun, would go higher. Some, not so much.

If you are lucky..two people really want it.

So, honestly, if one wants to dump their guns, fast. You are paying a fee for that. In lost value. Honestly, about half it seems.

 

[silicosys4]

I make an appointment to show my guns on the premise that the guy buys collections. Entire collections, cash money, fair prices.
I pack up all my guns, a few hours' worth of time because I've got to pull them out of storage and arrange them for transport.
I drive to the guy's house...and it's a nice house. Easily $6-700K house.
He takes me down to his garage, and he's got a custom walk-in gun vault built into his garage/basement. Oak. Red velvet. Brass. Track lighting. At least 90-100 long guns in racks. High dollar guns. Antique winchesters. Fine shotguns. Very expensive stuff.
Then he takes me into his ammo vault. Another custom-built walk-in room filled with ammo he brags about getting for free with guns, selling all of it for top dollar. Asks me if I need primers...bricks of 1k for $90 a brick.
Has me take another 2 hours showing him everything. Has his friend come over and poke through it too, on the premise that anything he can't buy his friend would make me a fair offer.
He says he needs to mull it over...I pack everything up...another hour, and leave. I drive home and spend another few hours putting everything back away.

Two weeks later he sends me a list of cherry picks and offers me 40% retail but only on the best stuff. Without going into details, these are the last hard assets I own. Covid wiped my business off the earth. Broke me financially.
Good for him, and all the money he made off of widows and desperation.
I wasn't impressed.

 

[silicosys4]

I have neither the time nor inclination to search every ended auction but, he offered $300 for a Sig P229 .40..

View attachment 1165880


View attachment 1165881

He would have lost a lot of money on that.

Some auctions, on the same gun, would go higher. Some, not so much.

If you are lucky..two people really want it.

So, honestly, if one wants to dump their guns, fast. You are paying a fee for that. In lost value. Honestly, about half it seems.

Sure, you found a few auctions for a beat up P229. My P229 isn't beat up.
Now go find me a USFA in box thats selling for anything close to what his offer was
Or a near mint .44spcl SAA.

 

[Ignition Override]

JohnKSa:

Maybe my impulsive response to a few of his prices was overly harsh.

But a grieving widow or daughter might have a diminished reasoning capabity plus total lack of knowledge— unless we leave a detailed description of gun values….

… in a place where they can Notice such a list of values—-

 

[dranrab]

I'd have a hard time calling those prices "80% of retail".

Yeah, a patient seller could easily double his money paying those prices.

 

[MikeInOr]

I think the bottom line is that firearms aren't a very liquid asset. If you need money fast you aren't going to get top dollar for firearms. If you you aren't in a rush to liquidate and don't mind doing the work of selling your firearms yourself you are probably going to be able to get a considerably better price for your firearms... but it will take time and work.

 

[sgt127]

SGT127, my sig isn't a beat up police surplus gun.

I can appreciate that.

And, he’s not honest claiming 80% of retail. He is giving you absolute low ball pawn shop, gun store prices. Hoping to double his money. But, not unexpected.

At 20% markup, There is no way I could stay in business hoping to make 5% profit (after auction fees, shipping, boxing, paperwork)

 

[Necessary_Nutrient]

That's a fair point. Often times I don't factor mags or accessories into the value of firearms I'm buying/thinking about buying, I just consider them extras to help sell the product or set it apart from similar offers.

Such accessories, however, sell well on Gunbroker or EBay and don’t require the FFL. That’s stuff I would do myself no matter what

I think the offers from the FFL are dog crap. It is what it is, whether the OP declines or not it’s a waste of time and let’s the OP know not to recommend the guy. Add literally 100 dollars to each firearm and he’s still making 100 percent gross profit.

I doubt he’s maintaining 10k feet of retail space, probably more like a basement with a beer fridge to work out of

 

[Jim Watson]

I think 40-50% of resale value is a typical dealer offer - ever watch Pawn Stars?
If 80% was claimed, it was just a lie.

 

[Elkins45]

I have neither the time nor inclination to search every ended auction but, he offered $300 for a Sig P229 .40..

View attachment 1165880


View attachment 1165881

He would have lost a lot of money on that.

Some auctions, on the same gun, would go higher. Some, not so much.

If you are lucky..two people really want it.

So, honestly, if one wants to dump their guns, fast. You are paying a fee for that. In lost value. Honestly, about half it seems.

Nothing (other than some rare oddity) chambered in 40 S&W sells for very much these days.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Honestly, I wouldn't expect a dealer to offer more than 50% of retail.

He's a DEALER, not a person looking to buy/own on a personal level.

Now, a person-to-person private sale? 80% of retail is a fair deal. The person selling gets more than a dealer would offer and the buyer spends less than he would at a dealer.

Retail prices often represent a 100% markup over what the business buys their stock at, give or take.

Any time one goes to a dealer expecting to rake in the big bucks on whatever it is they're trying to sell, they are quite often deluding themselves.