officer accidentally shoots daughter

[joab]

Joab, You and I don't often agree, but this is one of those rare moments.

Yes but most of our disagreements are over this very mentality
IIRC
The last one was over the condemnation of some cops based on four lines of newsprint which was nothing more than testimony by the defense trial lawyer

Anytime I suggest that the media may not have told the whole story it is assumed that I am siding with the villian of the story when I am simply pointing out that the true villain is the willingness to blindly accept an account as told by the same media that has perps using 38 mm automatic revolvers

Hey, if some of y'all want to think it might be acceptable to shoot your family members if the situation is confusing,

See what I mean paco
Suggest the the whole story may not have been told and suddenly we are finding it acceptable to shoot your offspring over confusion

 

[Dorryn]

Her father was an armed cop, she no doubt was aware he had a gun. Sneaking into a house in the middle of the night is not wise. Oh sure, its easy to say he should have made sure of his target before shooting, but who knows if there were even lights located where she snuck in? We cannot tell from the story how she acted...

When you act suspicious, you get treated with suspicion.

 

[Mortech]

Never come in after 10 PM PERIOD was the rule when I lived with my grandfather for a year (I was 20 at the time) , I made the mistake of diobeying that rule , me knowing his eyesight was bad , that there had been several attempts to break in his home , I foolishly tried to go end . Well ol Granddad let loose a blast with his shotgun that missed me by 2 feet and splintered the gate fence post , lets say he effect was quite similiar to to a prep job for a colonoscopy . THe mistake was mine knowing what a crappy neighborhood he lived in so I had to one to blame but myself for the condition of my pants . Dogs are great , nothing like seeing a sheriff deputy cornered in his car by a vicious pack of .....POMERANIANS! I think mine believe they are timber wolves ... but thats another story .

 

[gbell]

my father is a cop. Cops can be VERY jumpy. One night I was sneaking into my house and the next thing that I know I'm coming to trying to find my glasses that are in pieces on the floor and my dad leaning over me saying "I didn't mean to." But at least he always keeps a flashlight beside the bed along with a handgun.

 

[Willo]

>>> tell your kids not to sneak into the house in the middle of the night. If they don't listen... then they dieeee

 

[lamazza]

Its a tragedy and it could've happened to anybody

 

[wacki]

Heh, makes me think twice about giving a future wife a shotgun.

added it to the list:

http://wacki.wordpress.com/2007/01/14/gun-accidents/

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

"At 18, why did she have to sneak out in the first place?

Overly protective/authoritarian parents are just as destructive as overly permissive parents.

This time, ostensibly, deadly."

if at 18 your still sucking the parental teat you abide by the parental rules. or you move out. its not complicated.

i can't even start to imagine what hes going through for shooting his kid. when my daughter was an infant she was ill and i was an upset new dad trying to give a sick kid medicine she spit its out. as i was reloading the syringe i checked the paperwork on the scrip saw that in my infinite wisdom i had misread it. and the dose she spit out woulda constituted a serious overdose for her. by the grace of a god who looks after fools drunks and babys i was spared from hurting her. even that near miss make me almost ill thinking about it and i can't fathom what this man must feel.

 

[wideym]

The article said the officer had been on leave since being stuck by a truck, maybe he was on pain medication and/or sleeping pills? After I was injured in traffic accident I was on both for a long while. Perscripion drugs can make you do or not do things you would normally. If everybody lives caulk it up to a painful life lesson.

 

[ryan in maine]

who'd he think was breaking in to use the bathroom? out of all the places I might be if got shot, I think being on the toilet would be @ the bottom of my list. haaa. poor grl. bet she gets a new car tho.

 

[.cheese.]

While I think he needs some better training (you can't be shooting until you've identified your target as hostile!) - I send my prayers that his daughter is ok and doesn't suffer permanent damage.

I'm sure this is a very hard time for both of them. He must feel terrible. and his daughter must be struggling to muster forgiveness.

 

[Jeff White]

Some of the people here really amaze me. The idea that it's somehow ok to shoot at something you can't identify as hostile because it's in your house is just crazy. Do you guys fire a mad minute in the direction of everything that goes bump in the night?

I am a cop. I spent a lot of years in the Army as an Infantryman before I retired and became a full time cop. I guess you could say that I've had reason to be jumpy. A couple years back, it was only my wife and I in the house. My youngest son (19 at the time) was out camping with his friends. I was awakened about 3 am by someone coming in the back door. I got up, put my robe on, grabbed my weapon, opened the bedroom door and shined my SureFire down the hall. Standing in the light at the back door was a very startled looking teenage girl. It seems that it had started raining and my son was moving the campout into my basement. No he didn't call and tell me first, but you know what, no one got shot. In fact none of the kids even knew I was armed because I just peeked around the door jamb to see who was there. Heck I didn't even have the wire bails pulled back from the claymore clackers....

Now I know that there are a lot of members here who are secretly hoping to catch an intruder in their house so they can see if they have what it takes to kill someone, at least that's what one can surmize based on what's posted here. But there is no need for anyone ever to shoot at someone who you can't articulate so a reasonable man would agree that the person was an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm to you or another, castle laws or not.

Jeff

 

[Elza]

While my outlook draws disdain from some, I figure that anyone that breaks into my house is not acting in the best interests of me or my family. I plan to take appropriate measures.

However, I very definite rules of engagement. First and foremost, where is my family? If my wife and son are where I expect them to be then any intruder is fair game. If they are not where I expect them to be everything changes. I will not take a chance on firing on a family member even if it means putting myself in a more dangerous position. I WILL confirm the target before firing.

I also have a few other things working in my favor. Two noisy dogs that do not bark at family members. Anyone else they will. This will most likely be accompanied by screams from the one attacked by my German shepherd. Plus, our son (along with my wife and I) will call before entering the house. Even with the above safeguards, I still wouldn’t take a chance if wife or son isn’t accounted for. It simply isn’t worth the risk.

 

[ilbob]

ilbob, where do you find glee in my post? I clearly said I couldn't second guess him.

Was not referring to you. Some of the earlier posts were pretty smug. Maybe there is good reason, but I have to feel sorry for someone who only wanted to defend his home and ended up shooting a loved one instead, even if he probably violated all kinds of gun rules. Just because he is a cop does not mean he is not a human being too.

Most of us probably have pretty good instincts about where guns are pointed and shooting only when we really mean to, etc., and do a good job of it on the range. It is different when one is wakened out of a sound sleep trying to figure out what is going on. You hope your training and experience and practice works, but it does not always keep you from doing dumb. Cops tend to be on the aggressive side, and that may explain some things in this case.

 

[joab]

who'd he think was breaking in to use the bathroom?

Hint; Medicine cabinet

 

[Browns Fan]

Quote:
"Dogs are great , nothing like seeing a sheriff deputy cornered in his car by a vicious pack of .....POMERANIANS! I think mine believe they are timber wolves ... but thats another story ."

I have no doubt to the truth to this story, because I have a pit poodle!

 

[RNB65]

Some of the people here really amaze me. The idea that it's somehow ok to shoot at something you can't identify as hostile because it's in your house is just crazy.

Well said, Jeff. The last time I checked, being sure of your target was still one of the fundamental gun safety rules.

 

[Geno]

Ball3006 nailed it!

Two years ago, my nephew practically begged to buy my first Glock 17. Finally, I sold it to him. I told him that he needed to buy a light for the rail so he could positively ID any potential intruder to assure it isn't family. His answer, "I can't right now...that'll be next month. I'm tapped-out now!"

Upon hearing that, I looked over at my little great-niece and great nephew, reached into my shooting bag and said, "You know, I can't ethically sell you that pistol without the light. If anything ever happened and you accidentally shot your own kids or wife, I'd never foirgive myself, and you wouldn't forgive yourself either!" I pulled out my Surefire rail light and gave it to him for free. What a low, low cost for peace-of-mind!

 

[Tim Burke]

Thank you, Jeff.
There's a legal doctrine known as res ipsa loquiter. Literally means "the thing speaks for itself." It is a doctrine or rule of evidence in tort law that permits an inference or presumption that a defendant was negligent in an accident injuring the plaintiff on the basis of circumstantial evidence if the accident was of a kind that does not ordinarily occur in the absence of negligence... like the violation of Rule 4.
I don't think I need to know all the details to conclude that the officer violated Rule 4.
That doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for him, but my feeling bad for him doesn't turn a bad shooting into a good shooting.

 

[TallPine]

We have one of those low wattage 18" flourescent lamps mounted in a corner behind the stairs on the ground floor. We leave it on 24 hrs a day, since that is a dim corner even in daylight (house interior is all wood).

That means I can see what is going on downstairs from the relative dark of the upstairs. No intruder is going to get up those stairs alive once I am awake. Not to mention that the BG has probably already been "greeted" by the dogs.

Anyway, don't people lock their houses at night...?????? I don't think family members are going to be breaking windows or busting down doors in the middle of the night (if they do, then you have other problems).

Besides, since he was a cop - did he not know that you are never supposed to clear your house by yourself

 

[RPCVYemen]

Her father was an armed cop, she no doubt was aware he had a gun. Sneaking into a house in the middle of the night is not wise. Oh sure, its easy to say he should have made sure of his target before shooting, but who knows if there were even lights located where she snuck in?

First of all, I am not condeming the man - my heart goes out to him. I can't imagine the anguish of a father who discovers that he had shot his own daughter. I am sure that all of the rationalization in the world won't change tht for him.

I keep hearing about the lights, and things that she may/may not have done. Those may be fine for a legal defense, but I not sure that the proper ethical rules is "If I don't know for 100% sure that it's a family member, shoot. I find out later whether it really was a family member or not."

It appears to me that there are a lot of folks on THR that have a Hollywood notion of a gun as a magical power - "I can never be a victim of a violent crime if I have a gun in my hand."

A gun is only tool - and it had limitations. There are a lot of folks who post, "But if I let the bad guy get close enough to determine whether or not he's a threat, he'll have the drop on me!" The limitation of a gun - in civilan use - is that you have to have the time and info to determine a credible threat befiore shooting (motive, means, opportunity, etc.). For legal reasons, that determination is different inside your house. But if you don't have time, lighting, etc. to do that, then a gun becomes much less useful. It's not a magic wand, it's a tool.

Welcome to the reality of handguns - it's not Hollywood. If you shoot when you think that there might be a possibilty of a threat - or to maintain a tactical advantage even you can't be sure that it's not a threat - you're on shaky ground, ethically and legally.

The old quote "I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six!" doesn't seem very funnny when you have just shot your child. I am not sure how much of a comfort, "Well, she should have knocked and announced herself first!", is in that situiation. Somebody posted a funny story about his near sighted grandfather missing him with a shotgun. Can you imagine the anguish of the grandfather if he hadn't missed? I am parent, not a grandfather, but I imagine that killing a grandson would have destroyed the old man.

Any of us who intend to use a gun for self defense need to ponder this situation long and hard.

Mike

 

[delta53]

next time

next time he should only fire if the perp is not walking with a limp that should rule out his daughter

 

[foghornl]

I ALMOST made this same gross mistake a few years back...

Sis-In-Law was staying with us over the weekend, her (then) BF was there, but he had left, said he had to catch an early flight next morning.

Anyway, I hear noises in kitchen, grab up Maverick, and head that way. By the light of the 'fridge, I see outline of some goon drinking juice out of carton. WAAAAY too big to be Sissy...Finally realized who the big goof was, but the safety was already off . . . . .

Seems Sissy had let big goof in through bedroom window, without letting us know he was back.

 

[MrPeter]

Yes, I completely agree with all of you saying that the guy should have looked with a flashlight. He should have been positive of his target.

But seriously though, if you know your dad is jumpy and a cop and is armed, then why be an idiot and test him? The daughter is as much to blame, not only be being stupid by waking her father in this way, but for insubordination. Maybe her father is overprotective, maybe not. This article doesn't tell us that, but who are we to tell this person how to raise their child? One thing that does apply though, is that this child clearly had no respect for their parents.
There's a reason he says to stay home at night you fool!

I'll bet as soon as that leg heals or gets replaced with a peg she'll be at it again. Darn rebellious youngsters (I'm 21).

 

[joab]

It is a doctrine or rule of evidence in tort law that permits an inference or presumption that a defendant was negligent in an accident injuring the plaintiff on the basis of circumstantial evidence if the accident was of a kind that does not ordinarily occur in the absence of negligence... like the violation of Rule 4.

I'd be willing to bet that you would need a lot more than a few uncorroborated paragraphs in a local newspaper to get that ruling