OK, this makes me REALLY mad - AG Gonzales denies habeas corpus is Constitutional!

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Preacherman

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I realize that the source for this report is what I would regard as left-wing, but they seem to have their facts straight. I'd like to see confirmation of this. I wonder why it hasn't been more widely reported in the MSM? :fire:

From Consortiumnews.com ( http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/011807.html ):

Gonzales Questions Habeas Corpus

By Robert Parry
January 19, 2007

In one of the most chilling public statements ever made by a U.S. Attorney General, Alberto Gonzales questioned whether the U.S. Constitution grants habeas corpus rights of a fair trial to every American.

Responding to questions from Sen. Arlen Specter at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on Jan. 18, Gonzales argued that the Constitution doesn’t explicitly bestow habeas corpus rights; it merely says when the so-called Great Writ can be suspended.

“There is no expressed grant of habeas in the Constitution; there’s a prohibition against taking it away,” Gonzales said.

Gonzales’s remark left Specter, the committee’s ranking Republican, stammering.

“Wait a minute,” Specter interjected. “The Constitution says you can’t take it away except in case of rebellion or invasion. Doesn’t that mean you have the right of habeas corpus unless there’s a rebellion or invasion?”

Gonzales continued, “The Constitution doesn’t say every individual in the United States or citizen is hereby granted or assured the right of habeas corpus. It doesn’t say that. It simply says the right shall not be suspended” except in cases of rebellion or invasion.

“You may be treading on your interdiction of violating common sense,” Specter said.

While Gonzales’s statement has a measure of quibbling precision to it, his logic is troubling because it would suggest that many other fundamental rights that Americans hold dear also don’t exist because the Constitution often spells out those rights in the negative.

For instance, the First Amendment declares that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

Applying Gonzales’s reasoning, one could argue that the First Amendment doesn’t explicitly say Americans have the right to worship as they choose, speak as they wish or assemble peacefully. The amendment simply bars the government, i.e. Congress, from passing laws that would impinge on these rights.

Similarly, Article I, Section 9, of the Constitution states that “the privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.”

The clear meaning of the clause, as interpreted for more than two centuries, is that the Founders recognized the long-established English law principle of habeas corpus, which guarantees people the right of due process, such as formal charges and a fair trial.

That Attorney General Gonzales would express such an extraordinary opinion, doubting the constitutional protection of habeas corpus, suggests either a sophomoric mind or an unwillingness to respect this well-established right, one that the Founders considered so important that they embedded it in the original text of the Constitution.

Other cherished rights – including freedom of religion and speech – were added later in the first 10 amendments, known as the Bill of Rights.

Ironically, Gonzales may be wrong in another way about the lack of specificity in the Constitution’s granting of habeas corpus rights. Many of the legal features attributed to habeas corpus are delineated in a positive way in the Sixth Amendment, which reads:

“In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed … and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; [and] to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses.”

Bush's Powers

Gonzales’s Jan. 18 statement suggests that he is still seeking reasons to make habeas corpus optional, subordinate to President George W. Bush’s executive powers that Bush’s neoconservative legal advisers claim are virtually unlimited during “a time of war,” even one as vaguely defined as the “war on terror” which may last forever.

In the final weeks of the Republican-controlled Congress, the Bush administration pushed through the Military Commissions Act of 2006 that effectively eliminated habeas corpus for non-citizens, including legal resident aliens.

Under the new law, Bush can declare any non-citizen an “unlawful enemy combatant” and put the person into a system of military tribunals that give defendants only limited rights. Critics have called the tribunals “kangaroo courts” because the rules are heavily weighted in favor of the prosecution.

Some language in the new law also suggests that “any person,” presumably including American citizens, could be swept up into indefinite detention if they are suspected of having aided and abetted terrorists.

“Any person is punishable as a principal under this chapter who commits an offense punishable by this chapter, or aids, abets, counsels, commands, or procures its commission,” according to the law, passed by the Republican-controlled Congress in September and signed by Bush on Oct. 17, 2006.

Another provision in the law seems to target American citizens by stating that “any person subject to this chapter who, in breach of an allegiance or duty to the United States, knowingly and intentionally aids an enemy of the United States ... shall be punished as a military commission … may direct.”

Who has “an allegiance or duty to the United States” if not an American citizen? That provision would not presumably apply to Osama bin Laden or al-Qaeda, nor would it apply generally to foreign citizens. This section of the law appears to be singling out American citizens.

Besides allowing “any person” to be swallowed up by Bush’s system, the law prohibits detainees once inside from appealing to the traditional American courts until after prosecution and sentencing, which could translate into an indefinite imprisonment since there are no timetables for Bush’s tribunal process to play out.

The law states that once a person is detained, “no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any claim or cause of action whatsoever … relating to the prosecution, trial, or judgment of a military commission under this chapter, including challenges to the lawfulness of procedures of military commissions.”

That court-stripping provision – barring “any claim or cause of action whatsoever” – would seem to deny American citizens habeas corpus rights just as it does for non-citizens. If a person can’t file a motion with a court, he can’t assert any constitutional rights, including habeas corpus.

Other constitutional protections in the Bill of Rights – such as a speedy trial, the right to reasonable bail and the ban on “cruel and unusual punishment” – would seem to be beyond a detainee’s reach as well.

Special Rules

Under the new law, the military judge “may close to the public all or a portion of the proceedings” if he deems that the evidence must be kept secret for national security reasons. Those concerns can be conveyed to the judge through ex parte – or one-sided – communications from the prosecutor or a government representative.

The judge also can exclude the accused from the trial if there are safety concerns or if the defendant is disruptive. Plus, the judge can admit evidence obtained through coercion if he determines it “possesses sufficient probative value” and “the interests of justice would best be served by admission of the statement into evidence.”

The law permits, too, the introduction of secret evidence “while protecting from disclosure the sources, methods, or activities by which the United States acquired the evidence if the military judge finds that ... the evidence is reliable.”

During trial, the prosecutor would have the additional right to assert a “national security privilege” that could stop “the examination of any witness,” presumably by the defense if the questioning touched on any sensitive matter.

In effect, what the new law appears to do is to create a parallel “star chamber” system for the prosecution, imprisonment and possible execution of enemies of the state, whether those enemies are foreign or domestic.

Under the cloak of setting up military tribunals to try al-Qaeda suspects and other so-called “unlawful enemy combatants,” Bush and the Republican-controlled Congress effectively created a parallel legal system for “any person” – American citizen or otherwise – who crosses some ill-defined line.

There are a multitude of reasons to think that Bush and advisers will interpret every legal ambiguity in the new law in their favor, thus granting Bush the broadest possible powers over people he identifies as enemies.

As further evidence of that, the American people now know that Attorney General Gonzales doesn’t even believe that the Constitution grants them habeas corpus rights to a fair trial.
 
“There is no expressed grant of habeas in the Constitution; there’s a prohibition against taking it away,” Gonzales said.
The Constitution doesn't grant ANY rights, instead it forbids the government from taking them away. Thats how the damn thing works.

:scrutiny:
 
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA /insane maniacal laughter.

And there it is. Our AG is stating that if the right is not granted in the constitution, it does not exist. He's cloaking it it nice words and eloquent turns of phase, but the blight still shines though. The slope grows increasingly steeper, and I have little doubt that President Bush is green with envy of Senior Chavez...

Venezuela's National Assembly has given initial approval to a bill granting the president the power to bypass congress and rule by decree for 18 months.

President Hugo Chavez says he wants "revolutionary laws" to enact sweeping political, economic and social changes.

He has said he wants to nationalise key sectors of the economy and scrap limits on the terms a president can serve.

Mr Chavez began his third term in office last week after a landslide election victory in December.

The bill allowing him to enact laws by decree is expected to win final approval easily in the assembly on its second reading on Tuesday.

Continues at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6277379.stm

TTBMA. :fire:
 
It's even worse. His logic goes that just because a law is mentioned and can not be forbidden it does not follow that the people have that right. Habeas corpus can not be suspended except under certain specific circumstances. That doesn't mean you actually have a right to it.

Extend the logic. Congress shall make no law screwing with freedom of speech, religion, the press or the right to petition for redress of grievances. That doesn't mean you have a right to do any of those things. And it means that the Unitary Executive is free to do whatever the hell it wants to those things. Forbidding excessive bail doesn't mean you have an expectation of bail. Consider what this means for the Second, the Fifth, the Eighth...

Gonzalez is also the source of the recent notion that the Courts may not interpret laws pertaining to National Security and the contention (via Yoo) that the Executive can "crush the testicles of an innocent child" to make his parents talk. In Newsweek a few months ago he "speculated" (his word) about the right of the President to order extra-judicial killings of Americans in America.

His is the hand behind the idea that the laws Congress passes may not restrict the actions of the President. Hmm. Neither the Courts nor Congress can get in the President's way when he invokes "National Security". So much for checks and balances.

In short, he's a damned totalitarian and an enemy of freedom. This is just the latest in a long string of outrages.
 
And those of us who warned of this with HR 6616 were called "Tinfoil Hat Nuts"...

Still think we are "Tinfoil Hat Nuts" after this?:scrutiny:
 
It's not Liberal vs. Conservative. It's Freedom vs. Totalitarian, Rule of Law vs. Rule of Men, Reason vs. Raw Emotion. And there are just as many good people who are on the right side of those on the so-called Left and the so-called Right. The great success of politics in the last 30 years has been the polarization and fragmentation of this nation. By focusing our attention on minutiae about what people do with their genitals and other irrelevancies combined with pervasive fear and insecurity the rulers have let us get to a point where we cheerfully gave up our rights in order to feel safe.

Neverending war. Neverending fear. We've got those. We are told the "War on Terror" - as if you can declare war on an emotion - will last forever or at least into the generations. The President needs dictatorial power until the war is over...

A few enemies to hate, particularly if it splits resistance to the New Order, and you can do any damned thing you want. Set the Church against the Unions. Split civil liberties into Guns vs. Everything Else. Encourage religious strife and ethnic hatred. Make sure that those who value their freedoms spend most of the time hating each other. Or as they say "Divide and rule. Fragment and rule absolutely." Turn all opponents into traitors or madmen. Just yesterday Tony Snow was asked what would be an appropriate way to dissent concerning the President's policies. Mirablie Dictu he couldn't think of any.

The rulers control both the Democrats and the Republicans through the purse-strings. They've come up with something wonderful. We are told to mistrust and hate the government which, however imperfectly, reflects and is responsible to the will of the nation. At the same time we are supposed to be terrified enough to do whatever it says.

I feel like I've fallen into Edgar Allen Poe's "System of Doctor Tar and Professor Feather" where the madmen have taken over the asylum.
 
Here is another Article on this, with a video of it.

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/01/19/gonzales-habeas/

Gonzales: ‘There Is No Express Grant of Habeas Corpus In The Constitution’

Yesterday, during Senate Judiciary Committee hearings, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales claimed there is no express right to habeas corpus in the U.S. Constitution. Gonzales was debating Sen. Arlen Specter (R-PA) about whether the Supreme Court’s ruling on Guantanamo detainees last year cited the constitutional right to habeas corpus. Gonzales claimed the Court did not cite such a right, then added, “There is no express grant of habeas in the Constitution.”

Specter pushed back. “Wait a minute. The constitution says you can’t take it away, except in the case of rebellion or invasion. Doesn’t that mean you have the right of habeas corpus, unless there is an invasion or rebellion?” Specter told Gonzales, “You may be treading on your interdiction and violating common sense, Mr. Attorney General.” Watch it:

<<Video>>

As McJoan noted, the right of habeas corpus is clear in Article I, Section 9, Clause 2 of the Contitution: “The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.”

Digg It!

Full transcript:

SPECTER: Where you have the Constitution having an explicit provision that the writ of habeas corpus cannot be suspended except for rebellion or invasion, and you have the Supreme Court saying that habeas corpus rights apply to Guantanamo detainees — aliens in Guantanamo — after an elaborate discussion as to why, how can the statutory taking of habeas corpus — when there’s an express constitutional provision that it can’t be suspended, and an explicit Supreme Court holding that it applies to Guantanamo alien detainees.

GONZALES: A couple things, Senator. I believe that the Supreme Court case you’re referring to dealt only with the statutory right to habeas, not the constitutional right to habeas.

SPECTER: Well, you’re not right about that. It’s plain on its face they are talking about the constitutional right to habeas corpus. They talk about habeas corpus being guaranteed by the Constitution, except in cases of an invasion or rebellion. They talk about John Runningmeade and the Magna Carta and the doctrine being imbedded in the Constitution.

GONZALES: Well, sir, the fact that they may have talked about the constitutional right to habeas doesn’t mean that the decision dealt with that constitutional right to habeas.

SPECTER: When did you last read the case?

GONZALES: It has been a while, but I’ll be happy to — I will go back and look at it.

SPECTER: I looked at it yesterday and this morning again.

GONZALES: I will go back and look at it. The fact that the Constitution — again, there is no express grant of habeas in the Constitution. There is a prohibition against taking it away. But it’s never been the case, and I’m not a Supreme —

SPECTER: Now, wait a minute. Wait a minute. The constitution says you can’t take it away, except in the case of rebellion or invasion. Doesn’t that mean you have the right of habeas corpus, unless there is an invasion or rebellion?

GONZALES: I meant by that comment, the Constitution doesn’t say, “Every individual in the United States or every citizen is hereby granted or assured the right to habeas.” It doesn’t say that. It simply says the right of habeas corpus shall not be suspended except by —

SPECTER: You may be treading on your interdiction and violating common sense, Mr. Attorney General.

GONZALES: Um.

Cuda: Has he lost his mind?
Him and the rest of our Government did a LONG time ago I'm afraid.
 
The frightening thing is that he hasn't lost his mind. He knows exactly what he is doing. So does Cheney. So do the rest of the really dangerous ones. All "Bush bashing" aside I really do think that the President is glad to sit inside his bubble and be fed comforting lies by his handlers. He may well be detached from reality.

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately"
 
The executive administration of this country is downright evil, no question about it.

This sort of evil --> :evil: :fire:

I voted for the other guys in both elections, and while I wasn't thrilled with them, I'm sure they would be better than the neo-cons. People here may hate Democrats as gun-grabbers, but Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft and Gonzales have probably destroyed more constitutional rights then all the Democrats who held a federal office in the past 2 decades put together. It doesn't matter if you're liberal or conservative; either way, we lose rights. :cuss:

The detainee bill is actually worse than the article suggests. I read it, and I believe that the full provisions can be applied to American citizens without difficulty or due process. The whole thing is blatantly, egregiously unconstitutional and illegal. Even non-citizens have rights, and the constitution is supposed to protect those rights as much as it does for citizens.

It also really bothers me because my girlfriend is a (legal) resident alien. She's sweet and innocent and not at all likely to attract the wrong sort of attention, but I don't trust any government that assumes this kind of power...
 
Startling in its nakedness, isn't it?

Well, there it is. Either our AG would flunk Con Law 101 or he's the Mad Hatter in what is increasingly an Alice in Wonderland government.

As Waitone said, Bush would love to have this guy on SCOTUS where he can happily shred what's left of the Bill of Rights. This crew has gone from confused and klutzy to something much worse and much, much more dangerous, not only doing damage on their own but greasing the way for the jackbooted janissaries on the Left.
 
Article 1, Section 9:

The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

This clearly asserts three things:

1) That habeus corpus exists
2) That it is a privilege
3) That it shall not be suspended, except in cases of Rebellion or Invasion, when public safety requires it.


Where Gonzales is right, (not that it pleases me, mind you) is that the scope of to whom it applies is not specified.

Given the state of slavery that existed at the time of adoption, the tenuous nature of the many compromises contained, the fact that Virginia, a slave state, was the largest, most populous, and powerful state at the time, such a clarification would not have been feasible.

Furthermore, it would not have been beneficial to freedom in the long run, as any clarification acceptable to Virginia would have specifically exempted slaves, thus cementing the legitimacy of slavery into our founding document.

Where I think Gonzales is going with this is pretty straighforward: enemy combatants, lawful or otherwise.


There is ample precedent that enemy combatants do not attain the full protection of the Bill of Rights, and so long as this...interesting...view of habeus corpus is confined to that topic, and duly tested in the courts, we'll be OK.


And if not, well then.....
 
Look, this is about freedom to everyone. This is about the fact that I might not agree with what Chuck Schumer or Josh Sugarmann think about the 2A. And they don't agree with me, but we both believe we can scream about our beliefs as loud as we want without being locked in a cellar never to see the light of day.

You take away the ability to descent by placing a label on someone, and the Republic is dead. We are living in a police state about to happen.

Right now, it's an American who deals with Egyptians, and doesn't know that their client donates to Al Qaeda. How long will it be until it's one of us donating to a now "subversive" organization? What happens when the NRA or the GOA, or JPFO is "a terrorist organization"? What happens when a Star Chamber of judges can put you in prison, and crush your kid's genitals to get a confession, admission, whatever? Read the Military Commissions Act. It is the law. This isn't our country anymore, and until these laws go away, it won't be.

These laws will go away. One way or another.They have to, or we might as well gas up our cars and drive ourselves to the prisons right now, get into the gas chambers, and hope it comes quickly.
 
"You might however consider whether you should not unfold as a background the great privilege of habeas corpus and trial by jury, which are the supreme protection invented by the English people for ordinary individuals against the state. The power of the Executive to cast a man in prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government, whether Nazi or Communist."

-Telegram by Churchill from Cairo, Egypt to Home Secretary Herbert Morrison (1943-11-21)

Secret arrests. Secret trials. Secret torture. Secret executions. If you're a terrorist, the White House can have you disappeared KGB-style. Who decides who's a terrorist? Why, the White House. Keeping in mind that Poppy, Junior, Nixon, Bill Bennett and most stars of the neocon movement are anti-RKBA, it should be painfully obvious that political expediency is the only reason the Republicans support gun rights. If these guys perceive the slightest threat to their power base from armed citizens, every firearm owner will become a "Gun Terrorist" overnight.
 
This is another example of ignoring the spirit of the Constitution. People need
to begin educating themselves on the difference between the letter and
spirit of the law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_the_law

Should we be surprised at the AG's comments when we have other lawyers
under the AG interpreting law like this?:

Doug Cassel: If the president deems that he's got to torture somebody, including by crushing the testicles of the person's child, there is no law that can stop him?

John Yoo: No treaty.

Doug Cassel: Also no law by Congress -- that is what you wrote in the August 2002 memo...

John Yoo: I think it depends on why the President thinks he needs to do that.

Doodeedoodeedoo.....surprise surprise. Learn their mentality:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/17/opinion/17yoo.html?ei=5090&en=2db683b71a2b4606&ex=1316145600
 
I am sorry, but he is absolutely right.

The "right" to habeas corpus preceeds the US Constitution, and is part of the common law which _predates_ the Constitution. The cont only states under which conditions it may be suspended.

It's not some "wacked out" theory. In stems from a greater understanding and knowledge of where we, as a nation, come from. Remember, the constition does NOT grant rights. It recognizes rights, and establishes under which circumstances the government may limit rights.

But i realize that doesnt' fit nicely into a 5 second snippet for air time.
 
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