Old "Law Enforcement Only" Winchester Ammo

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javacodeman

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When I bought my H&K .40, the dealer gave my 24 rounds of Winchester's Law Enforcement Only ammo that he said was accidentally let out on the market by Winchester a few years ago.

I've looked at this ammo and see some minor corrosion of the lead inside the hollow point.

Question 1) Could this corrosion degrade the reliability of the ammo?

Question 2) How long should I trust this ammo?

Question 3) Is there a way for me to get more of this ammo?

Question 4) Are there other brands of ammo that are equivalent to Winchester's LE Only ammo?

Thanks,

java
 
There are many different types of ammo sold as "LEO Only". There is no law stating most of them can't be sold. (Notice I said most, there are exceptions).

Most of the time it's a marketing/pricing/packing thing by the manufacturers.

I have some Hornady 5.56 ammo that's supposed to be "LEO Only", among other types in the closet somewhere.

As for the reliability of yours, I wouldn't have a problem shooting it at the range. Probably wouldn't carry it for self defense use but I'm quite sure it will fire if it's been kept dry.

As for getting more of it why would you want to? It's just a cardboard box most likely, not "special" ammo.

Some odd states have procurement rules like "you can't sell this same thing to the general public" etc.

It may very well be the exact same thing as other Winchester ammo, just with a different SKU to get around those types of requirements.
 
Yeah, I know that it is legal for me to own. The dealer from whom I purchased my gun, is also a member of the Sheriff's Deptment, does police training, and is retired Army Spec Forc, so I trust him.

The LEO only ammo is slightly different than Winchester's Personnal Protection Hollow points as it is a bit more "hollow."

As to your other point, this is what I *do* carry for personnal protection. This is why I'm looking to get more of it or another type of .40 that is pretty hollowed.

java
 
As to your other point, this is what I *do* carry for personnal protection.
Click to expand...

OK, not to offend or anything, but you only have 24 rounds of this stuff and you are carrying it as your self defense ammo?

How could you have verified proper function in your weapon and still have some left to carry with only 24 rounds?

Also, when did "more hollow" mean that ammo performs better?

I think you have some research to do if you really want to be sure you're carrying the best ammo you can get. The "amount of hollow" really isn't a big criteria to look for in SD ammo, not by a longshot.
 
Shoot the free 24 rounds up and get yourself some fresh new ammunition that you're sure of the source. I suggest getting some 180 or 165gr Winchester Ranger T ("LEO Only"), Speer Gold Dots or Remington Golden Sabres. Just be sure it functions positively in your sweet new HK

The corrosion you mention on the inside portion of the hollowpoint won't affect reliability.
 
The old Winchester LEO ammo is probably the notorious Black Talon. The current Ranger SXT is essentially the same stuff, with a different coloured bullet.

My armorer friend tells me he doesn't trust it because the case separates from the core upon impact. He likes Speer.
 
Black Talon myths. . .

There are more myths and inaccuracies surrounding the Black Talon than any cartridge/bullet combination i'm aware of! :cuss:

It all started in 1993 with the original Black Talon
1.) Balck Talon
2.) Ranger SXT (Black Talon with brass case - LEO only)
3.) Supreme SXT ('politically correct' defanged Talon)
4.) Ranger T

Quick photochop
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/6589/talonpic1ia0.jpg
 
Thanks for the advice. As I've said, I'm new to this. I think I'll take Rampant_Colt's advice:

Shoot the free 24 rounds up and get yourself some fresh new ammunition that you're sure of the source. I suggest getting some 180 or 165gr Winchester Ranger T ("LEO Only"), Speer Gold Dots or Remington Golden Sabres. Just be sure it functions positively in your sweet new HK
Click to expand...

TexasSIGman, to address your last question:

you only have 24 rounds of this stuff and you are carrying it as your self defense ammo?
Click to expand...

Yes and No. I've completed all of the requirements for my CWP except wait the inordinate amount of time it takes South Carolina to do paperwork and mail the actual CWP. So I'm not packing heat with these rounds. I do, however, keep these rounds in the mag at home for home defense.


Thanks again.

java
 
javacodeman said:
The dealer from whom I purchased my gun, is also a member of the Sheriff’s Deptment, does police training, and is retired Army Spec Forc, so I trust him.
Click to expand...

That’s your problem right there. Your dealer is either ignorant or lying.

http://ammunitiontogo.com/
http://www.streichers.com/

The above links will take you to just a couple of the places that sell ammunition packaged for and marketed to the law-enforcement community.

~G. Fink
 
Law enforcement ammo is marked that way because no TAX has been paid on the ammo under the pitsman/robinson act.

Not a marketing ploy at all.
 
The dealer from whom I purchased my gun, is also a member of the Sheriff’s Deptment, does police training, and is retired Army Spec Forc, so I trust him.


That’s your problem right there. Your dealer is either ignorant or lying.

http://ammunitiontogo.com/
http://www.streichers.com/

The above links will take you to just a couple of the places that sell ammunition packaged for and marketed to the law-enforcement community.

~G. Fink
Click to expand...

Yeah:confused: ...I'm not sure what your trying to say here. None of those links made available the specific rounds that I'm talking about. If you've read this thread, you've heard me and others acknowledge that "LEO ONLY" ammo is a company's decision not the US GOV'T's. My dealer didn't tell me differently. He just said that Winchester didn't make a habbit of selling its "LEO ONLY" on the open market, but that some was let out a few years ago due to overstock. Yes your links provide other brand's "LEO ONLY" ammo, but that wasn't all of my original questions:

Question 1) Could this corrosion degrade the reliability of the ammo?

Question 2) How long should I trust this ammo?

Question 3) Is there a way for me to get more of this ammo?

Question 4) Are there other brands of ammo that are equivalent to Winchester's LE Only ammo?
Click to expand...

My dealer is neither ignorant nor lying; worst case he is having me trust reliable ammo that is slightly old and that I haven't shot.
 
Winchester Ranger has 10 different 40 caliber loads that I can think of off of the top of my head.

You can still get them but some like The black bullet Ranger SXT and the Ranger Partition Gold have been out of production for a while and are considered collectable and price accordingly.
 
If it is the Winchester Ranger T ammo, there is a lot of the 40 cal on the market in different places. I see .45 ACP and 9mm quite regularly. You don't always see it in stores, but gun shows have it a lot.


Anyway, what does it say on the back of the cartridge? That would help a lot with the speculation. :)
 
Anyway, what does it say on the back of the cartridge? That would help a lot with the speculation.
Click to expand...

I am at work now, so I'll have to look at the cartridges and box when I get home. At appearances only:

1) The box looks like the second from the left in Rampant_Colt's picture (except its .40 not .45): http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/6...lonpic1ia0.jpg which says that it is Ranger SXT.

2) The round looks exactly like the Ranger T round in the same picture.

I'm guessing that it is the Ranger T, but I'll confirm tonight.
 
500 rounds

I think you are about 1000 rounds away from really being able to shoot the pistol with confidence and the 24 rounds ought to just be a speed bump on the journey. I'd get something reliable and cheap and a LOT of it and start shooting.

And without LEO-bashing, I'd like to add a second and a grain of salt to taking LEO advice. Some of them might know something about guns and shooting, but that's as rare as bearded women without a tattoo. We don't see many in competition....except POLICE competition that is closed to the citizenry.
 
I do not see a Ranger SXT box in the picture. I see starting from the left.

Black Talon
Ranger T-Series #RA45T
Winchester Supreme SXT

The last two years of the Ranger SXT ammo used the same box as the current Ranger ammo. You have to look at the small product code number in the right hand corner of the box. It can be seen in the picture just to the right of the Supreme SXT bullet.
 
Blackfork said:

I think you are about 1000 rounds away from really being able to shoot the pistol with confidence and the 24 rounds ought to just be a speed bump on the journey. I'd get something reliable and cheap and a LOT of it and start shooting.
Click to expand...

Well my normal shooting practice involves 100 rounds from my Walther .22 with Mini-Mag Long Rifle Hollow Point 36 grain .22 rounds. Followed by 50 rounds from my H&K with Winchester 180 grain .40 FMJs. I've owned my guns since August 19th and since then I've had 6 of these sessions putting me up to 600 .22 rounds and 300 .40 rounds practiced fired. (This doesn't include the 50 .40 rounds shot during the CWP course or the 100 .22 and 100 .40 rounds shot between myself and wife when I was introducing her to the guns.)

Are you suggesting that I need to be practicing with the *exact* same round that I plan to carry? I assumed that 180 grain Winchester .40 rounds would be similiar enough to practice with the cheaper versions and pack with the more expensive.

I'll gladly shoot up the 24 rounds given to me as soon as I replace them with some more personnal protection ammo.

java
 
Different people have different ideas of breaking in a gun. I like to get a minimum of 150 or 200 rounds of FMJ the first time out and shoot it all up. I do this to get a feel for the gun, the trigger, the sights, and overall handling and recoil. You may want to shoot more later.

My old range didn't allow hollow points. I would suggest at least shooting up one box or 3 or 4 mag loads to make sure your gun functions well with that type of ammo. Some guns have trouble with some kinds of ammo. Make sure your gun works with your ammo 100% or as close as possible.
 
Sorry, javacodeman, but when I saw “retired Army Spec Forc” juxtaposed with erroneous distribution information, my BS detector immediately went off. I certainly didn’t mean to offend you.

Winchester’s current catalog of ammunition geared toward law enforcement includes at least nine .40-S&W loadings in the Ranger series. If you can’t find your specific load amongst these, then it may no longer be in production, as others have already suggested. Since the Ranger series is marketed only to law enforcement, we common subjects just have to hunt a little bit more for it. :)

May I assume that your multitalented dealer refused to order any more of this ammunition for you?

~G. Fink
 
I know one box is .45acp and the other .40S&W - I posted these just for comparison. Winchester changed their packaging several times so you need to list the actual part number ie; RA45T is the 230gr. Ranger T --
RA45SXT is the Ranger SXT (Original Black Talon with brass case 'LEO Only')

To confuse matters even more, like Gorden Fink said, there's 9 or so different listings for the .40S&W. One of which is similar to the 155gr Silvertip without the silver!
I think my head's gonna explode:confused:


http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7664/telepics009ic0.jpg

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/5250/telepics011xt3.jpg

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/476/telepics012cv4.jpg
 
That is the Ranger jhp ammo. It is like the upgraded verion of the Personal Protection ammo that places like Wal Mart carry. It is good stuff, I would not lose any sleep if that was all that I had in my gun.
 
Are you suggesting that I need to be practicing with the *exact* same round that I plan to carry? I assumed that 180 grain Winchester .40 rounds would be similiar enough to practice with the cheaper versions and pack with the more expensive.
Click to expand...

No--The majority of your practice can easily be with cheap ammo. With an auto, you do need to make sure the gun will fire and feed your carry ammo. For a gun that has shot at least several hundred rounds of a variety of ammo without a failure, 40 rounds of carry ammo from your carry magazine is a barely adequate test. I'd carry the 100 pack Remington JHP that Walmart sells (shoot 80, carry the rest) over premium ammo I hadn't tested in my gun.
 
Okay, so here is your ammunition. The Winchester .40-S&W 180-gr. jacketed hollow point (RA40180HP) is rated at 1,015 ft./sec. at 15 feet using a SAAMI standard four-inch test barrel, generating 411 ft.-lbs. at the muzzle. I don’t know if this variant is still in production, but I’m sure you can find an equivalent loading or perhaps one even more well suited for you and your handgun. For example, the 180-gr. Speer Gold Dot has very similar ballistics, on paper at least.

~G. Fink
 
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