Old Machine Gun Question

[Sport45]

In war one and maybe war two they used machine guns fed by rounds on cloth belts. How was the round stripped out of the belt? Was the belt ripped as the cartridge was pushed forward or was the round somehow pulled back out of the belt before being fed to the chamber? This inquiring mind wants to know.

 

[TexasRifleman]

No the fabric belt was not destroyed in the process. The metal disintegrating link came along later. The cloth belt was used into WWII and maybe later by paratroops. The added weight of the metal links was too much to jump out of a plane with.

Basically yes the round was pulled back out of the fabric and the empty fabric strip fed out the other side then the round was moved into the chamber.

The belt feeds above the chamber (1919 style MG here cause its the only one I've seen up close) and the round is pulled back and drops down to line up with the barrel so the belt is "above" the barrel line.

Hard to describe without pictures.

 

[JesseL]

Watch this animation. It doesn't show a cloth belt but the principle is the same.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Very nice

That's exactly how it worked.

And I am pretty sure that the guns didn't even have to be modified to go back and forth between using cloth and disintegrating links but I may be wrong on that one.

 

[Deanimator]

No the fabric belt was not destroyed in the process. The metal disintegrating link came along later. The cloth belt was used into WWII and maybe later by paratroops. The added weight of the metal links was too much to jump out of a plane with.

Basically yes the round was pulled back out of the fabric and the empty fabric strip fed out the other side then the round was moved into the chamber.

The belt feeds above the chamber (1919 style MG here cause its the only one I've seen up close) and the round is pulled back and drops down to line up with the barrel so the belt is "above" the barrel line.

The cloth belt was used by ALL troops, because until after WWII, that's ALL they had.

I believe that the Browning guns use push through feed. It's typically guns chambered for rimmed cartridges like .303 and 7.62x54mmR that pull the bullets out.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I believe that the Browning guns use push through feed

That video animation is of a Browning Ma Deuce, and it's clearly pulling the rounds out. I am fairly certain the 1919 is the same but it's been a while since i toyed with one.

 

[SMLE]

The Browning and Maxim based MGs used the "pull out-push in" set up. The metal disintegrating link belts were developed during WWII, All the aircraft mounted guns used them. There was no modificatiuon needed to the gun to switch between cloth or metal belts.
The Germans developed the "push through" system with (IIRC) the MG 34 and carried it over to the MG 42. This system was copied for the M60 and FN-MAG GPMGs.

 

[Roswell 1847]

The MG34 used a non disintegrating linked belt that was linked by wire coil connections. I haven't examined any close up but they looked to be either thin metal or stiff leather.
I've only seen one side of those belts so I couldn't tell if they had a push through opening on the other side.
The MG34 couldn't use MG42 disintegrating belts for some reason.

The Belt Advancement pawl was carried over to our M60 from the MG42, not necessarily its entire feed system. The M60 is described as a Semi Bullpup in that its action is set back over the grip. The German MGs seem to have all the major mechanics set farther forwards.

Looked at these and it seems the MG34 does push through afterall, I wasn't sure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDfglolql2Q&feature=related
The Belts don't disintegrate.

 

[SMLE]

The MG 34 and MG 42 used the same non-disintergrating metal link push-through belts. The current production MG3 is set up to use standard NATO disintegrating links. A friend of mine has an original MG42 and the only thing needed to convert it to shoot 7.62 NATO is to change the barrel and feed mechanism. This is simply a matter fo field stripping and reassembling with the alternate parts.
The M-60 used the action ofthe MG42 with the barrel change mechanism of the BREN gun and the gas system of the Lewis gun. In other words, it is a kludge.

 

[Roswell 1847]

Right you are.

I just remembered that some Soviet Heavy machine guns strip the cartridge out of the keepers on a belt using fingerlike protusions of a wheel. The cartridges are then rotated into position by the wheel.
The wheel is driven by a rod similar to the old "yankee screwdriver".
Sorry but I can't think of more accurate terminology this early in the morning. Plus the action is pretty much unique so finding English terms for these mechanisms wouldn't be easy.

 

[Deanimator]

If anybody's seriously interested in the Browning 1917/19 guns, there's a series by Collector Grade Books that covers them in detail. I believe there is a three volume set planned, Ground Guns, Air Guns, and Mechanical Operation. The first two have been released and I have both. They're worth it just for the pictures. They're not cheap though.

 

[MachIVshooter]

And I am pretty sure that the guns didn't even have to be modified to go back and forth between using cloth and disintegrating links but I may be wrong on that one.

I was told by people I trust that it is advisable to use a SS gaurd plate on belt fed firearms orignally designed for cloth if one intends to use steel links. One of the folks who told me this is the FFL who sold me my 7.62mm M1919A4.

Seems reasonable, as the relatively jagged and spring-tough steel links drag across the milder reciever steel. I imagine a few thousand rounds would show substantial wear and could cause feeding problems.

 

[Roswell 1847]

On the Wikipedia John M Browning page there are links to his US Patents including machinegun Patents.

You have to download and install a freeware program to view the Patents Images but its fairly quick and easy and from a reputable publisher.

The Program is pretty useful for other stuff as well.

The Patent Images include the Mechanical Drawings and full descriptions of the mechanisms and explanations of intended usage and benefits.

 

[Jim K]

All the Browning, Maxim and Vickers guns used a pull out, push down, push in feed, so cloth belts were perfectly OK and rimmed rounds were no problem.

The term "disintegrating link" is really a misnomer and the correct term in disintegrating belt. The links don't disintegrate. The link has two loops that fit over one cartridge, then the opposite side has one loop that fits over the next cartridge between the two loops of the next and so on. When a cartridge is pulled or pushed out, there is nothing to hold the link and it is pushed out on the side away from the feed tray.

The disintegrating link was developed for aircraft use when planes went to wing guns. The empty cloth belts kept getting in the way and pilots could not clear the problem as they could with flexible mount guns. There was also a system that used a spring loaded "bobbin" on which the empty cloth belt was wound to keep it out of the way. It was used on both flexible mount and wing mount guns, but was made unnecessary by the invention of the disintegrating belt.

Jim

 

[Sport45]

I felt a little silly asking, but I'm glad I did. It sparked a very interesting discussion and answered my question well. I'm blocked from youtube here, so will have to wait until I get home to see the video.

Thanks!

 

[geim druth]

How were these belts filled? I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I'm reading Von Lettow-Vorbeck's memoir of fighting in Africa during WWI and he mentions some kind of machine that they would tie to a tree during a battle to fill belts.

 

[Deanimator]

How were these belts filled?

Do you have access to the magazine "Smallarms Review"? It's dedicated to automatic weapons and other similar subjects. They've frequently covered the topic of belt loading machines for various machineguns. They also frequently have ads for companies selling them. Here in the Cleveland area, Barnes & Noble carries it.

If you get the Collector Grade books on various machineguns, there are always chapters on accessories, like belt loading machines.

There are various types of belt loading machines, some of them very simple lever types, others much more complicated crank types.

 

[MilsurpShooter]

I know in WWI aviation it was common for pilots to sit with a stack of ammunition and 10-20 belts and load them all by hand. Immelman and Boelcke were famous for this. They would literally hand inspect each cartridge and each inch of the belt to try to reduce the risk of jamming. Can't say I blame them.

 

[SDC]

The lack of a belt is also one of the reasons why the Lewis was such a popular aircraft MG during WW1; this had it's own problems, though, since you had to pivot the gun back to remove the empty pan mag, ditch it over the side, and pull out a fresh one from a rack or bag (all while flying).

 

[Deanimator]

The lack of a belt is also one of the reasons why the Lewis was such a popular aircraft MG during WW1; this had it's own problems, though, since you had to pivot the gun back to remove the empty pan mag, ditch it over the side, and pull out a fresh one from a rack or bag (all while flying).

Originally they didn't have that option and had to actually stand up in the cockpit to change the drums. The Foster Mount with Lewis gun mounted on a rail eliminated this dangerous task.