My daily carry lately is a German made Walther PPKS. I have an Interarms Walther PPKS also, in stainless. I love both pistols. I bought them used, and I have zero regrets. As I am frequently doing deliveries and making bank runs, an easy to conceal handgun is a plus. They fit my hand nicely, point naturally, and are reliable. I went with those because I have found the quality to price ratio of older and/or used guns very high versus some of the latest new stuff. rather than insult any enthusiasts of one brand or another by naming names, I just wonder if other forum members have seen a decline in overall quality of some new offerings lately or is it just me?
Older guns
- Thread starter J.Scott
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Billy Shears
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- Mar 16, 2008
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Hey, I occasionally (admittedly very rarely) carry my old Remington Model 51, because it's so flat that I can, even in the hottest weather, conceal it under a t-shirt with an IWB holster. It also points more naturally than any other handgun ever (for me anyway), and the quality is indeed, superior. The amount of machining that went into it means that the gun could probably never be offered for sale on the market today if anyone tried to bring it back. What a pity.
Qualitywise, there are pluses and minuses comparing new guns vs. old. On the one hand, the level of fit and finish on new guns doesn't even begin to compare. Last year I bought an almost mint 6 1/2" bbl S&W Model 29, made in the early '60s, just after they adopted the Model 29 designation, and when they still came with the much-desired "coke bottle grips" (which mine still has). I picked it up and compared it with a brand new Model 29 the shop also had. The difference was night and day. The new gun had a flat, dull blue, while mine is so shiny you could almost shave in it. You simply won't ever see a new, factory gun come with that level of polish anymore. It just costs too much. Those old coke bottle grips were hand checkered and fitted, and you won't see that anymore either. The level of individual craftsmanship that went into the old guns was just of a level you don't see anymore.
On the other hand, new guns have undeniably superior metallurgy. And the computers that show up in the manufacturing process these days often permit greater tolerances to be routinely achieved than in the old days. One of the reasons less hand fitting is needed nowadays is that parts come made to tighter tolerances to begin with, and this means less cost in the manufacturing.
If you adjust for inflation, you find a good quality firearm took about as big a bite out of your paycheck 50 or so years ago as it does today. But the guns did look a lot better, though they didn't always shoot better.
Qualitywise, there are pluses and minuses comparing new guns vs. old. On the one hand, the level of fit and finish on new guns doesn't even begin to compare. Last year I bought an almost mint 6 1/2" bbl S&W Model 29, made in the early '60s, just after they adopted the Model 29 designation, and when they still came with the much-desired "coke bottle grips" (which mine still has). I picked it up and compared it with a brand new Model 29 the shop also had. The difference was night and day. The new gun had a flat, dull blue, while mine is so shiny you could almost shave in it. You simply won't ever see a new, factory gun come with that level of polish anymore. It just costs too much. Those old coke bottle grips were hand checkered and fitted, and you won't see that anymore either. The level of individual craftsmanship that went into the old guns was just of a level you don't see anymore.
On the other hand, new guns have undeniably superior metallurgy. And the computers that show up in the manufacturing process these days often permit greater tolerances to be routinely achieved than in the old days. One of the reasons less hand fitting is needed nowadays is that parts come made to tighter tolerances to begin with, and this means less cost in the manufacturing.
If you adjust for inflation, you find a good quality firearm took about as big a bite out of your paycheck 50 or so years ago as it does today. But the guns did look a lot better, though they didn't always shoot better.
cyclopsshooter
Member
i believe the highest quality came in the 60s and 70s- steady decline since- though some remained very good into the 90s (i own a stainless interarms from 97/98 and it is very well made) there are still good guns made today but they are expensive
run of mill gun shop new stock is not what it used to be
run of mill gun shop new stock is not what it used to be
I am of the opinion that the very best Smith and Wessons and Colts came from the mid 1980s to the early 90s.
I think the quality of many handguns has gone up, not down, in the last twenty years.
S&W revolvers unfortunately aren't one of them.
Prior to the release of the Glock 26, THE ONLY small handgun I would consider carrying for back up or personal defense was the J Frame S&W .38 Specials, pick a model because I used them all at one time or another.
I think the quality of many handguns has gone up, not down, in the last twenty years.
S&W revolvers unfortunately aren't one of them.
Prior to the release of the Glock 26, THE ONLY small handgun I would consider carrying for back up or personal defense was the J Frame S&W .38 Specials, pick a model because I used them all at one time or another.
sidheshooter
Member
I suppose it depends upon the gun. I have guns from the early 40's to this year and I will say the the tooling on my bersa thunder .380 (the newest) is more refined than my war-era p-38.
On the other hand, my 1976 36-1 J-frame is a jewel, and I have a model 12-3 that is light years above and beyond the new revolvers in fit and finish (IMHO, of course).
Depends upon the circumstances at the time of manufacture. The one that always gets me is how good a .380 my model 34 is; and it's a lot older than I am.
On the other hand, my 1976 36-1 J-frame is a jewel, and I have a model 12-3 that is light years above and beyond the new revolvers in fit and finish (IMHO, of course).
Depends upon the circumstances at the time of manufacture. The one that always gets me is how good a .380 my model 34 is; and it's a lot older than I am.
woad_yurt
Member
I usually buy regular or common stuff, whether it's for my guns, cars, light switches, etc. I'm not a gotta-be-custom-crafted kind of person. I say this because I am not saying that there is only junk to be had nowadays. But....
I have dabbled in H&R .22LR and K-frame S&W revolvers for enough time and with enough examples to notice that later pieces were less well finished than earlier ones. I had a 1961 Single Six that was fine jewelry compared to the new ones.
For example, the dropping of the pencil barrel was a great cost cutting measure disguised as an improvement. It takes less machining to leave the barrel cylindrical (AKA bull barrel.) Remember the pencil barrelled Model 10? A beauty!
MIM parts: Nauseating!
Sideshooter:
I don't feel it's fair to compare made-for-military-during-war examples with made-for-civilian-during-peace weapons. They cut corners during hard times.
I have dabbled in H&R .22LR and K-frame S&W revolvers for enough time and with enough examples to notice that later pieces were less well finished than earlier ones. I had a 1961 Single Six that was fine jewelry compared to the new ones.
For example, the dropping of the pencil barrel was a great cost cutting measure disguised as an improvement. It takes less machining to leave the barrel cylindrical (AKA bull barrel.) Remember the pencil barrelled Model 10? A beauty!
MIM parts: Nauseating!
Sideshooter:
I don't feel it's fair to compare made-for-military-during-war examples with made-for-civilian-during-peace weapons. They cut corners during hard times.
It's a mixed bag:
So far as workmanship, fit, polish and finish is concerned, handguns made by Colt, Smith & Wesson, Remington and Savage from World War One to World War Two represent the very best. But the steel they used was softer.
From the End of World War Two to about 1970, workmanship was still pretty good, and the materials used were better - sometimes much better.
During the Viet Nam War era heavy demand resulted in poorer workmanship in some cases. Quality control was sometimes out to lunch.
Thereafter the driving force in handgun manufactrure was - and still is - cost cutting, with obvious results. But without cost cutting the manufacturers would be out of business. Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world.
But then there is an out. Yesterday I watched a "still new and unfired" Smith & Wesson Military & Police (pre-Model 10) made most likely in 1946 or '47, go for $ 400.00 (plus about $80.00 in additional fees, taxes, and such). This is still less then S&W wants for a new one. Take your pick, but there is no free lunch when it comes to quality guns.
So far as workmanship, fit, polish and finish is concerned, handguns made by Colt, Smith & Wesson, Remington and Savage from World War One to World War Two represent the very best. But the steel they used was softer.
From the End of World War Two to about 1970, workmanship was still pretty good, and the materials used were better - sometimes much better.
During the Viet Nam War era heavy demand resulted in poorer workmanship in some cases. Quality control was sometimes out to lunch.
Thereafter the driving force in handgun manufactrure was - and still is - cost cutting, with obvious results. But without cost cutting the manufacturers would be out of business. Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world.
But then there is an out. Yesterday I watched a "still new and unfired" Smith & Wesson Military & Police (pre-Model 10) made most likely in 1946 or '47, go for $ 400.00 (plus about $80.00 in additional fees, taxes, and such). This is still less then S&W wants for a new one. Take your pick, but there is no free lunch when it comes to quality guns.
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