S&W revolvers now vs. then

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Well I certainly can't add even two cents to this discussion, but, I'm here to learn and you've certainly taught me some things! Driftwood... I'm inheriting some older revolvers, Colt Police Positive, a few old Smiths, etc. I should have some pictures & questions for you if you're willing to give me a nickel's worth of free advice in about a month or so?
 
Well I'm pretty pleased with my new M642-1 No-Lock model. :neener:

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Am I pretending it's as good as my Dad's 1967 Model 37 with near 100% bluing and maybe 400 rounds fired in it's entire life?

No.

But then again, it doesn't have to be. It's fine accurate, fine reliable, and was at a good price. It does all I need it to do and it does it well.

PS: I experienced Deja Vu while typing that last part. :what:
 
I remember the guns from the late 40s to the present an I can see and feel the difference. Newer is not better.
 
RS,

What I was referring to is in general if I were to pick up an older (quantified to say 5 screw N frame) at random and a newer (quantified to say a 600 series N frame) and take them to the range and test them for accuracy. My experience is that the 600 series (modern) will more likely be more accurate than the older gun.

Now, why do I say that?

I collect S&W's. I have collected modern and I have and currently do collect older N frames. I focus on just one type normally so for example while this picture is way out of date and I am about 20 guns beyond this, here is an example of my collection.

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(all 38/44's)

or

3844ods_032113.jpg
All 38/44 Outdoorsman's

Etc.

When you shoot many of the same gun from different vintages you get a feeling for the lot to lot variations among a model. I feel I am a passable shooter and normally shoot 50 shot groups at 15 to 25 yrds. As an example:

reg_target.jpg

My 1939 Registered magnum, 50 shots 15 yrds.

So what I have observed is that older guns while they look better, feel better are polished better, in my opinion, show a larger specimen to specimen variation than modern guns. Also I find that modern guns in general show greater accuracy potential than older guns given that they tend to be closer consistent tolerances on the barrel dimensions but this is a supposition on my part.

I can say that my 1955 Pre-25 or my Registered Magnum will go head to head with any modern gun for accuracy. I can also say that some of my 1930's vintage 38/44's are poor in the accuracy department while others are great.

So hence my conclusion. Modern S&W's in my experience have a greater likelihood of being accurate than older S&W's while Older ones have the fit and finish to die for. This is why I now collect pre numbered 38/357 caliber N frames pretty much exclusively.
 
Peter,

First of all the last thing I would want to do here is to express any disrespect of your opinions. I do not feel any and quite frankly look forward to your posts.

The plain fact though is that your experiences do not align with mine (nor anyone whom I am acquainted well enough with to know their opinions), regarding this variable accuracy in old production Smiths. Do you handle a like number of "new production"? If yes, whatever for?

I cannot compete with your collection (few could), but simply posting the product of your considerable wealth and dedication to collecting is just not enough to get me to think that my approx. 38 years of experience is now somehow suspect because I do not own 75 or more vintage Smiths.

MY experience in handling and shooting a fair number of them over these years is that they are remarkable for their LACK of variance in inherent accuracy. They (the old production Smiths AND Colts) led me to believe for a bit that if you observed the brand to be one of these two, you just didn't have that concern unless something was mechanically wrong. Perhaps you are buying so many "veterans" that some of them are not quite right?

Let's suffice it to say you have not yet convinced me that old production Smiths (or Colts) are so variable in their inherent accuracy that they interfere with your handgun shooting performance and the new production is solving this problem for you.

You have no need or requirement to convince me, I could be an old curmudgeon eccentric and not worth much of a mention.

P.S. OOPS, you are a geophysicist. That is quite different than an engineer, but still no doubt a capable person. It is indeed possible that we can have differing experiences without either being "wrong". I hope you take my post in the skeptical, yet well intended spirit intended. I have altered my original post and will recognize that with so many in your hands you may indeed have an advantage. I do however maintain that I have shot a considerable number over the years without the slightest hint of such a variance unless for mechanical cause. I believe there is a possible alternate explanation and am not convinced that new production is inherently more accurate within the parameters of what the common hand gunner can achieve.
 
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RS,

I think you are I are looking at the same broad problem but with different facts so I say let's continue on and enjoy the discussion. As long as no one minds the banter, I think this will be interesting.

Lets jump to the basis of my observations. I started out collecting S&W's due to 38/44 1950 Outdoorsman and a 38/44 1930 Heavy Duty. They were and are great, but I originally bought them because my plan was to convert them to 10mm. I just did not like stainless guns back then but after I bought them I liked the 38/44 so much I said "ok" lets's not abuse these. Next I started buying 610's. I bought one 6.5" and liked it so much I bought a 5" and then this led to a bunch more until I finally decided I really just liked the one 610 (6.5") and sold off the rest and went back to 38/44's.

What I observed was every 610 was accurate, sometimes stinking amazing accurate. No duds, no hits no errors. Now after 4 vintages and I think like 24 610's to not find one that was a dud led me to have the opinion that modern stainless N frames are really really consistent and accurate. I have shot some L's (586/686), some other N's (29/629, 41 Mags, model 25's) and all of them have been consistently accurate. I have almost no K frame experience though. So having experimented with say over 60 (give or take) different N's and about 24 610's, I have concluded modern N's are consistent and accurate.

Now on my 38/44's, I try to buy "nice" pieces. I have not a single one rechambered 357 Mag so they are mostly original. I have around 53 of them but I have not counted. What I have noted is that there is more sample to sample variation in accuracy in the 38/44's then with the modern N's. They look good, they seem nice but you just see more spread in overall accuracy. I have some that are borderline shotgun patterns. Say 6" at 15 yrds and others that are tack drivers say 1" at 15 yrds for 50 shots. I have no idea what has been fired in them in the past 80 years but they look good seem fine so I shoot them.

My conjecture is that in the 5 screw era, fit and finish was critical and easily measured and assessed. Just like today we can easily visually inspect an S&W and tell if it is flawless or has rough fitting edges. BUT, (at least I can't) one cannot easily measure the subtle variations in cylinder, throat and barrel sizes to the thousand's of a inch. This is where I believe the more modern guns are more consistent and the older ones are slightly looser in the tolerances.

One could also take my experiences and say that over the last 80 years the older guns have been shot more, abused more and are less accurate because of it. How do we prove it one way or the other?
 
Peter M. Eick I agree completely.
One gains these observations through years of handling and shooting many many weapons.

Collectors and gun speculators who buy and sell purely to make money hate it when the truth comes out about what they push at over valued prices.

There are some things I truely despise about modern Smith and Wesson revolvers.
Accuracy and consistency are not on that list.
 
I agree with your comments in general Onmilo, but I disagree about the push at over valued.

I collect 38/44's. I will probably buy two more next week when I get a chance. I buy them knowing that they have a risk of not having the gilt edge accuracy that I could get if I put the same money into a 610 but I buy them because I love the fit, the finish, the raw beauty of nicely blued hand finished S&W steel. I am buying a bit of history, not a shooter. The odds are the two I will buy will never be shot by me in my lifetime. I don't buy them specifically to add to my collection or even to fill in a hole. I will buy them just to keep them from being converted into a 45 colt or some other modification of their original form.

So the target shooter in me realizes that if I just want to put rounds in the same spot on a piece of paper my 610 or my Pre-25 will do a better job than the bulk of my 38/44's but for pure enjoyment on the range I still love my first 38/44 Outdoorsman or my 38/44 pre-war target piece.

For example:
610-65_t3_041412.jpg
50 shots (I did not show the 2 shot clip as it would fall over) 15 yrds offhand

Although, my current absolute favorite just to shoot is my pre-war 38/44 4" Humpback Hammer Heavy Duty. It is a near perfect carry shooter.
 
No offense to anyone present but I think I would need a more scientific test to be swayed one way or another. Off hand groups at 15yds don't really tell me anything. Peter is in the rare situation in that he could test a dozen or more of the same older model in a machine rest at 25yds and those would be results we could use. If the new guns shot on average a quarter inch better at 25yds, that's not going to make me run out and buy one.

I'm not going to weigh in one way or another as far as accuracy in new guns versus old guns. However, even if new S&W's shot as well, on average, as a Freedom Arms (they do not) I would not like them any better. As I said before, accuracy is a given requirement but is not the only factor. If it were, we'd all be shooting the same boring thing. The old guns have an appeal not easily described or quantified and the new guns lack that. I'll take a Bangor-Punta era sixgun over a new one any day of the week.

Although I must say that the 29 Classic and DX models are perhaps some of the finest examples of double action revolvers extant.


Elmer Keith even wrote about blowing up several S&W N frame .44s and .45s developing load data for what would become the .44 Magnum.
I see we're never going to get a response to the above statement. It's worthy of note that there is no evidence of Keith ever "blowing up" any S&W's. Even the blackpowder Colt SAA he wrote about did not "blow up".
 
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Early to mid 80's models perhaps?

The old guns have an appeal not easily described or quantified and the new guns lack that. I'll take a Bangor-Punta era sixgun over a new one any day of the week.


I'm acquiring the impression that in .357 an early to mid 1980's Model 586 or Model 28 is a good way to go for not a huge amount of money. Is that an accurate impression?
 
I would probably go newer if I had a choice in the matter. I will admit I am slowly on the hunt for a 586 6" to compare to my Python for grins. I have handled several but always there was a big N frame sitting next to it, and invariably I would buy the N frame. Hard to pass up a big 357 Magnum Pre-27/28.
 
The value of the dollar has declined 97% over the last century and this has taken a toll on US manufacturing. In order to be able to sell their products, manufacturers have to do something including raising prices and reducing quantity and/or quality of product. (Some manufacturers, such as gun makers have sought to upgrade their manufacturing processes so that the qualities that their customers value & are willing to pay for are maintained as much as possible.) I've run inflation calculators using 'official' government data & more realistic data - - - and often found gun prices lower than would be justified based on long term inflation alone.
Recently, I was looking for a replacement of the screw used to lock the slide on my dial calipers. (I use them for handloading and other gun related tasks. I bought them 10 years ago.) Out of curiosity I looked up what a new tool cost and was shocked to see them listed at $210 on Midway. :eek: This is at least double what I paid from that same company.
So you can thank the bankers tinkering with the dollar for higher prices and/or lower quality.
And you can thank the same bunch for setting up conditions which outsourced manufacturing to lower cost locations overseas.
 
Out of curiosity I looked up what a new tool cost and was shocked to see them listed at $210 on Midway. This is at least double what I paid from that same company.

I have vernier calipers, dial calipers, and digital calipers. All are stainless steel. Each is as consistent but easier to read accurately than the previous one, and each cost less than the previous one. The digital was $10.00 on sale at Harbor Freight 2 years ago, and work better than the verniers I paid $50.00 for over 30 years ago.
 
The workmanship on the older S&W revolvers is far better than those of recent manufacture. I doubt that they are really better so far as function goes. Metal parts that join up to each other were so tight on the older arms that they were nearly invisible. Today, pretty gappy. The insides have far more tool marks than the older ones. None of this has a negative or positive effect on function. I own a 1909 Peruvian contract Mauser rifle built by Mauser. The machine work, fit and finish is better than you will run across in anything other than a high priced custom built rifle. Now you take a AK or a AR and there is zero craftsmanship involved. Molded plastic and CNC machined parts. I'll take the Mauser for play pretty but when it comes to nut cutting time give me a modern platform anyday.
 
Okay... It's been a month and I finally got up to Dad's in northern Minnesota, (where I had to shovel the driveway to park my car... global warming my Obama!) and took these pics of his old S&W Revolver. I haven't any clues to what he owns other than what's written on the barrel and that it's Hammerless.
 

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I wish I knew how to add more than one photo at a time!
 

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Last one, (though I have a few more in reserve). Top of barrel says: Smith & Wesson, Springfield, Mass. U.S.A. Pat'd Feby

Next Line: 20, 77. Dec.18.77.May11.80. Sep.11..83.Oct.2.83(could be 85),TWO Auc.4.85

The gun accepts .38 S&W rounds.

Info please?
 

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That's an old safety hammerless. Not terribly valuable, but a fun item to have. Do a search on Gunbroker.com and look at some in similar shape to get an idea on value.

Radagast may be able to help you with a year of origin if you can see the serial number.
 
.38 S&W Safety Hammerless 3rd Model, going by the latch. Manufactured between 1890 & 1898, so a black powder only firearm. Use of modern smokeless ammunition will probably result in accelerated wear, but is unlikely to blow it up. Current factory ammo is kept nelow the original max pressure specs, but does have a different burn time and therefore pressure curve.
 
That's an old safety hammerless. Not terribly valuable, but a fun item to have. Do a search on Gunbroker.com and look at some in similar shape to get an idea on value.

No, not especially valuable, but I suspect a lot more then you think. In recent years they have gone up considerably, and especially if the barrel is longer then 3 1/2 inches. This example appears to be 4 or 5 inches.

My estimate is $350 to $400 on the collector market.
 
Yeah Fuff, I wasn't trying to say it was worthless or anything. And you are correct on the value I suspect. With a longer barrel and a fairly intact original finish I have seen a few early editions go for quite a bit more on gunbroker.com. (6, 7, and $800)

When I said
Not terribly valuable
I just meant that the poster shouldn't think it is worth a bunch, as in thousands of dollars. Definately worth a few hundred to collectors though as you said.
 
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