On a more serious note

[Plan2Live]

M-Cameron said:

Teenagers are not the most reliable source of information.....especially when it comes to matters at school........kids love to gossip, and kids love to exeragerate.......theres a lot of " i heard from a friend...." and " someone in my class heard from his friend...."....and all of a suddenly a story of someone who had a BB gun in their car ends up being a story of someone bringing a loaded handgun into class.

Well in this case, you can call it accurate. I was born in and grew up in Vero, still have family there, including one family member who works for the school district in the administration office. I just made a phone call to the family member who works for the school district and it is 100% true. That's as close as I can get without witnessing it myself or sourcing Snopes.

 

[DeepSouth]

I can't believe we are even having this debate, for about the entire history of this country until maybe 20 years ago almost no one kept their guns locked up and they did so with little to no problems.

What changed, other than opinions....
Hint:
The answer will nothing to do with guns therefore the solution shouldn't have anything to do with guns..... I know it's an outrageous theory.


Things like this remind me of the quote: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." And that's what we'll have in the end.

 

[Plan2Live]

I didn't realize we were having a debate. The OP simply said we all need to do a better job of making sure no unauthorized persons access our firearms and some people took issue with that opinion. I for one didn't interpret his comments as a blanket statement that everyone needs to lock up their guns but rather a reminder that things are different today than they weren't not too long ago and kids seem to behave differently than they did not too long ago. I have two sons, one is 21 and away at college and the other one is 17 and lives with his mom 3 hours away. They were both raised to respect firearms but I can tell you if they were 10 and 13 today I would take extra precautions that I didn't take when they were that age. No, guns haven't changed but I need to be proactive against the other things that have changed. That's just personal responsibility and I prefer to do it voluntarily now in hopes that if enough of us do then we won't be forced to at the threat of jail.

 

[DHJenkins]

This isn't a gun storage issue; it's a parenting issue.

 

[george burns]

The kids were arrested or held by Police, Kids from the high school told me.

 

[barnbwt]

"We need to take some responsibility to help stop this madness."

Three questions;
-Are these the type of kids that can be expected to be likely capable of taking responsibility themselves under any likely circumstance?
-If not, are their parents/guardians the type of adults that can be expected to be likely capable of taking responsibility for their kids under any likely circumstance?
-If not, are you willing and able to take responsibility for their actions?

That last one is essentially what we do by passing & enforcing laws to restrict others' ability to act irresponsibly. And that's in an ideal world where those laws actually accomplish what they set out to do. More realistically, the result is simply restricting others ability to act rationally.

The reason there is no good policy solution to issues like this is because policy is the wrong tool for the job. For kids to not bring guns/contraband to school, they have to choose to do what they know is right instead of what seems like a good idea.* For parents to lock up their guns, they have to bother to do what they know is right instead of what seems like a good idea. No part of this can be accomplished by laws alone (nor a public service campaign, for that matter). Personal responsibility is one of those things that comes from a higher authority than mere government, and can only be 'allowed' to happen freely, rather than legislated.

*Fourth question: Is this school or the kids' neighborhoods the type of environment where you might want to have a gun handy for personal defense just in case? Often 'gangbanging thugs' and other lowlifes are much wiser than we give them credit for in choosing to go about armed (the lack of wisdom in their choice of lifestyle notwithstanding)
Fifth question: If no to the first three, or yes to the fourth, why would you possibly want your kid in that environment?

TCB

 

[george burns]

I carry 24/7, all the time, but that gun I only accessible to me, on my person, in my pocket to be more precise. We have no one other than my wife an myself , 2 grandkids are up in Broward, and 2 in NY. They come 2 or 3 times a year and are very young.
But when they are here my gun is still in my pocket and a gun is available for my wife if I leave to go shopping or on an errand. She just has no interest in them anymore.
people change she used to be into guns now dislikes them due to bad arthritis and irritated lungs from 45 years of hair color.
But I would never leave guns out with kids in the house, it'd like owning a Motorcycle it's not if, it's when. No matter how much you instill in a kids mind, they can be worked over by their peers to do some stupid things.
A quick trip to the safe eliminates all the worry, unless your kid is Whity Bolger. "film not that great"

 

[gspn]

This country is made up of over 300 million people. You will never get them all to agree on anything.

This topic is probably better suited for a sociology board. Raising this topic here is like going to the Ford F150 forum and saying that all of them need to take responsibility for drunk driving.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Most of my guns are locked up. Some are not. There is always, ALWAYS, a loaded handgun, rifle and shotgun in my house, at a minimum, unlocked and unsecured, although somewhat hidden. However, my kids know where they are and how to use them. More importantly, they know WHEN to use them. Of course they have friends over, but my bedroom and the gun room are off limits. And, considering the fact that 99% of the time, either me or my wife are home, this reduces the possibility significantly that any guns are going to walk out of the house.

I grew up in a house where guns were not a common everyday thing. Neither of my parents carried. I never knew my dad had a .357 magnum revolver until I got curious about and found it looking for something else. But despite that, I knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt, not to play with it. This was without gun safety education, without Eddie Eagle, without plinking with dad.

Kids today are a lot different. Most of them are flat out stupid. Most of their parents are flat out stupid, too. This is a cycle that's not likely to change. But it doesn't drive them to murder innocent folks based on religion, skin color, economic standing or any other reason.

There has got to be some common sense. I'm not going to lock up all my guns, just like I'm not going to lock up my fire extinguishers. I'm not going to remove the batteries from smoke alarms, carbon monoxide and radon detectors, either. Home defense guns are unsecured for a reason.

 

[Bang!]

hmmmm No reports, rumors, gossip, speculations of any kind about kids bringing 'loaded' guns to school around here. Maybe you should focus on WHY that many kids in Vero feel the need to bring 'loaded' guns to Vero schools.

A little something to remember: We always assume guns are loaded.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Lock up your guns...wow! As if that's the be-all and end-all of gun safety and security around teens!

You know, I'm not against the principle of locking up guns, or other things, but let's get real here...we're talking about teenagers here. Not little kids.

If the teenagers in question cannot be trusted, then there are other issues at hand and certainly take appropriate precautions if that's the case.

We had guns in the house when I was growing up and the closest they came to being locked up was standing in the back corner of Mom and Dad's closet with the boxes of ammunition on the closet shelf. Amazing how I, and countless other kids, ever grew up in such an environment without killing ourselves or others, I know.

My wife and I have three teens in the house, from 17 to almost 14 years of age. They don't go around messing with the firearms, and most certainly don't take any out of the house to school or other places.

As a society, we'll trust our kids to babysit at 12. We'll put them behind the wheel of a vehicle that weighs thousands of pounds at 15. Age of consent laws go as low as 16, and that's only with respect to sexual interactions with adults, not other teens below 18.

At the age of 18, we MAGICALLY expect them to be ADULTS with all that this implies. Yet far, far too many people fail to prepare them to BE adults in the years prior to their 18th birthday.

And somehow we MAGICALLY expect them to be responsible drinkers at the age of 21.


I've got news here...I don't have a gun safe, nor do I have a residential security container. (Though it's on my list to get a decent gun safe.) Doesn't mean any of our guns are just "left out", nor that appropriate precautions aren't taken when the need is felt.

Guns aren't mysterious things around the house. The kids were raised to respect and understand them and at the age of 14, 16, and 17, I fully expect them to act like they fully respect and understand them.

That said, not every firearm in the house is easily or readily accessible, and not every firearm is in a condition to be fired. The bolts for all our bolt action rifles are in a lockbox, for example. Some long guns are locked in cases. Nothing is kept loaded except my carry weapon. (My wife does not keep any loaded firearm of her own in the house.) Most of the bulk ammunition is stored away, not kept with the guns.


If a teen is taking a gun to school, there has been a HUGE disconnect at the home front on this. And quite frankly, having been a teen myself, if a teen REALLY wants to do something that stupid, he'll figure out how to do it against almost anything a parent can do in terms of "reasonable" preventative safety measures.

 

[TomJ]

I've mentioned this in two discussions in the past two weeks and got beaten down for it.

Want to keep kids from getting guns? Lock up your guns. Simple.

But gun owners won't do it. They're all to busy exercising their God given freedom to leave weapons laying all over their homes. (Because, you know, someone my burst into their home, in their gated community, at any second and wipe out their family.) And then they act all surprised when little Johnny takes daddy's assault weapon to school.

This isn't rocket science folks, lock up your guns.

If I could make a suggestion, maybe next time you could offer an opinion in a more constructive way. Lashing out against gun owners, regardless of whether or not you are one and painting us all in a negative light, claiming that we leave guns laying around the house is absurd. Portraying all gun owners as paranoid and irresponsible may be the reason you've been "beaten down" in 2 other discussions. If you want to make suggestions or remind us of issues such as gun safety, I have no problem with that, but please do so without insulting us.

 

[njl]

I just googled it and was surprised to find that Florida's "safe storage" law appears to apply only to loaded firearms. Good luck proving the gun your kid finds and takes to school was unloaded when he found it.

790.174 Safe storage of firearms required.—
(1) A person who stores or leaves, on a premise under his or her control, a loaded firearm, as defined in s. 790.001, and who knows or reasonably should know that a minor is likely to gain access to the firearm without the lawful permission of the minor’s parent or the person having charge of the minor, or without the supervision required by law, shall keep the firearm in a securely locked box or container or in a location which a reasonable person would believe to be secure or shall secure it with a trigger lock, except when the person is carrying the firearm on his or her body or within such close proximity thereto that he or she can retrieve and use it as easily and quickly as if he or she carried it on his or her body.

Deepsouth, this has been a problem for more than 20 years. 30 years ago, a friend showed me his dad's revolver (kept in a shoe box on a high shelf in a closet) while his parents were out. I don't remember if it was loaded...I just remember wanting it back in the box ASAP. You could argue that kids don't mature as quickly as they used to...but teenagers will do some pretty stupid things if you let them.

 

[Coyote3855]

If I could make a suggestion, maybe next time you could offer an opinion in a more constructive way. Lashing out against gun owners, regardless of whether or not you are one and painting us all in a negative light, claiming that we leave guns laying around the house is absurd. Portraying all gun owners as paranoid and irresponsible may be the reason you've been "beaten down" in 2 other discussions. If you want to make suggestions or remind us of issues such as gun safety, I have no problem with that, but please do so without insulting us.

Just me, but I have no problem with Alaskan's posts, here and elsewhere. I don't find his advice insulting nor do I think he is "lashing out." This forum often has heated discussions, but as long as a certain level of civility prevails, I'm okay with anyone telling us what they believe.

 

[larryh1108]

I'm okay with anyone telling us what they believe.

I think we are all ok with anyone telling us what they think, feel, do and believe.

My problem is when someone tells me what I should think, feel, do or believe. That's when he crossed the line. We all have problems with the government telling us what to do, think or believe. It's harder to take it from a fellow gun owner. He should know better.

 

[The Alaskan]

It's harder to take it from a fellow gun owner. He should know better.

And therein lies the problem. I should know better. Somehow, because I own a gun, and you own a gun, I should think like you do and agree with you. I should drink from the same pitcher of kool-aid.

The problem with your desire to not be told what to do is that you/I/we live in a society and that comes with a price. When your behavior puts others at risk, then that society is going to have take corrective action.

A good example is drunk driving. We used to think drunk driving was no big deal. You got hammered at the bar, drove home while finishing off a beer or a fifth, and if you got pulled over, you went to the drunk tank to sober up. No big deal. The fact that drunk drivers were causing the deaths of so many innocent people wasn't an issue. Until it became an issue. Now, when you drink and drive, it mostly ruins your life.

If gun owners, such as yourself, so vehemently refuse to take responsibility for your gun ownership, and if it turns out that so many mass shooters are getting their guns from irresponsible gun owners, such as yourself, then, at some point, there is going to be a movement to mandate that you act responsibly, just as there has been with drinking and driving. It's only a matter of time, enough dead bodies, and frustration until it happens.

I guess you and really aren't that different. I think that, because I own a gun (several) and I can so clearly see this, that it baffles me that you don't. It baffles me that another gun owner would so vehemently resist taking on that responsibility. I feel like you should know better, and it's hard to take from another gun owner.

At the end of the day, you can stand on your soapbox about your rights and freedoms all you want, but with great freedom comes great responsibility.

 

[Ironicaintit]

Its not an accessability issue, it is a parenting issue.

I had an arsenal at my disposal throughout my childhood, and I never even thought to use them maliciously.
I was always taught to respect what they were and what they do.

I can picture scenarios though, where a youth acts in such a way that they simply can not be trusted. In those cases, keeping them all locked up would be prudent.
But, locking up your guns does not resolve the matter.
The basis of the distrust would still need to be rooted out.

But that takes dedication and effort! Much, much easier to lay the blame on an inanimate object from the couch in front of the TV

 

[USAF_Vet]

And liberty is dangerous.

I'd be much more inclined to.agree with the Alaskan if most mass murderers got their guns from houses where they were left unsecured.

But the problem is, most of them purchased them from FFL's, or in the case of Newtown, murdered his mother and stole her guns (which were locked in the gun safe).

The typical average daily street shootings like in Chicago are done with guns that were probably stolen or straw purchased. When Chicago still had it's handgun ban, hundreds of murders a year were committed with..... Anyone, anyone? Yes, handguns. The ban did not work, and the city sank deeper into a criminal cess pool. But the narrative that gun control does not work, as it clearly didn't in Chicago doesn't force the agenda of disarmament forward. Those murders, hundreds per year, are large ignored because they can't point and say how more gun control made the city a safer place. The Oregon shooting was shocking, an anomaly, and something for the anti's to use for their agenda.

Whether it's Islamic extremists shooting up an art contest, or a nut case hyped up on a psychotropic cocktail, or a retaliatory spree killing or any number of outright insane reasons people have for killing others, the guns themselves are not the problem. China just had another mass murder event with 50+ dead. The weapon was a knife.

These situations almost always happen in gun free zones. They will continue to happen in gun free zones until all guns and ammunition are banned and confiscated, an impossible task, or gun free zones are eliminated and people arm themselves.

 

[The Alaskan]

On a side note. I was supposed to take the young people (17-19 yr olds) from our church out to the local range to shoot today. 3 boys and 2 girls, one of the boys and neither of the girls have ever shot a gun. One of the girls is from Germany where guns are verbotten. But I put it off.

I talked to them and the group leader about it today. I told them that, with the recent shooting, emotions among gun owners are running pretty high and that range will be busier than usual (in large part due to their being a gun show one day after our PFD checks came in), and everyone is going to be up in arms preaching the anti-government gospel. (especially here in Alaska) I felt it would probably be best if we just waited a few more weeks and went at a better time. I didn't want to expose them to all the vitriol.

 

[The Alaskan]

And liberty is dangerous.

I'd be much more inclined to.agree with the Alaskan if most mass murderers got their guns from houses where they were left unsecured.

Liberty is not dangerous. Liberty without responsibility and self restraint is dangerous.

And you're right about the source of guns for mass shootings compared to daily crimes. And I thought I mentioned that earlier in this tread or perhaps it was another one. (They tend to run together.) In this particular case, gun safes (and/or laws requiring them) wouldn't have prevented anything.

But to argue that there is no need to secure your guns, as a general daily habit, is folly.

 

[ColoradoShooter77]

I agree with points that have been made here about the lack of responsible parenting and lack of education about guns being a big issue.

How about the general decay of morals and values in our society today, that fact that teenagers by and large can't be trusted with guns is pathetic in my view. 30 years ago....it was a complete non-issue.

My dad started me shooting 22 rifles when I was 8 years old, that would have been 1985. None of these problems were prevalent back then, why is that? Its a general decay of society, the whole "gun security" issue is a symptom of the disease.

We've had guns laying around the house for years, no one has been shot in our home. I was taught the responsible use of guns at a very early age and never thought of using them in a malicious matter.

 

[larryh1108]

There you go again thinking your way is the way it should be.
Think again.

My counter is that you do what you feel is right and I will do what I feel is right. That's always been my mantra. You say do it your way because it is the right way. Says who? You? Well, I don't feel you are anyone to tell me what to do in my house. Period. Simple.

I have news for you, driving drunk has been wrong since there has been booze and drivers. It has always been against the law and it still happens at an alarming rate. I guess you must have thought it was cool before they really made it a societal issue. Well, I never did and have never driven impaired and never will. I choose to not drink, period.

Since you brought drinking up I say that if you drink in your home then you should not have any firearms in your home because you could get drunk and accidentally kill somebody. Yeah, that's your way of doing things... telling us how to live OUR lives by YOUR values. Pass. Get over yourself.

 

[TomJ]

Alaskan,

Maybe it would be helpful to understand what is objectionable about what you posted. You stated "Want to keep kids from getting guns? Lock up your guns. Simple. But gun owners won't do it. They're all to busy exercising their God given freedom to leave weapons laying all over their homes." There were no qualifiers such as "some gun owners..." or "if you are a gun owner who...". To state that as fact, which is what you did, is untrue. Can you explain how you know that all gun owners leave guns laying around our homes?

You then stated "Because, you know, someone my burst into their home, in their gated community, at any second and wipe out their family.". You again stated this as fact, without any qualifiers. That's nonsense. How exactly do you know that all gun owners bear that level of paranoia?

As I originally stated, there are more constructive ways to make a point that gun owners need to be responsible and I have no objection to that type of reminder. Stating as fact the things that you wrote, however, are the tactics that the anti's use, trying to portray us in the most negative light possible and should not go unchallenged.

 

[ColoradoShooter77]

Its a balancing act, because "locking up the guns" completely defeats the purpose of having them for self defense.

Hey Mr. Burglar.....wait a second till I unlock this gun.

If someone crashes through your door at 2am, you don't want to have to screw around with a gun lock.

 

[USAF_Vet]

How does one force responsibility and self restraint? You can't, not if you still expect to keep liberty. Liberty is no guarantee of security. It never has been. We must provide for our own security if we expect to secure our liberty. We've relied on failed government procedures and mandates and laws for so long, now how will more procedures, mandates and laws fix anything?

We are not the brainwashed subjects of Britain, who've been largely disarmed since before WWII. It wasn't a difficult task to strip them of their arms. They had very few to begin with, nor did they possess a culture and history that included personal firearms. The US was colonized and founded and defended with the barrel of a gun. Guns are an integral part of our cultural DNA.

Those of us who accept the fact that liberty comes with risk will not be disarmed. We will resist being forced to do anything this despicable administration attempts to restrict the rights of the many based on the actions of the few.

They called for safe storage laws. The laws were ineffective.
They called for background checks. The checks are ineffective.
They will call for eventual registration. That will also be ineffective.
They can confiscate guns, yet mass murders will continue.
We simply cannot legislate away evil intent. Especially when we have a race baiting president that doesn't approach all violence equally.

We have to accept the fact that liberty is dangerous because we cannot control how other people think, believe, or behave.

Or we can give up liberty to purchase the illusion of security. But liberty will be sold out over my dead body.