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On Fighting Shotguns....

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by Dave McCracken, Apr 12, 2008.

  1. rws_53

    rws_53 Member

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  2. OldRed

    OldRed Member

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    I took dad's quail gun an old US Army Military Police Winchester Model 12 with a Polly Choke and could bring down duck and geese out to 50 yards or more. I use #5 shot late in the season and for the last 2 loads in the magazine unless we jumping tiny ponds then the one in the barrel would be 7 1/2s then 6's and 5's.

    Dad got it because it would slam fire trying to keep up with his quail hunting parter. They took me along to so they could fill out my limit after I got a bird or two.

    Don't sell an 18" barrel short with the right choke and ammo it will reach out almost as far as any shotgun.

    Life without liberty is like a body without spirit. - Khalil Gibran
     
  3. Jeb Stuart

    Jeb Stuart Member

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    Wow, reading all these post can be enough to blow your own mind. Some of these posters most live in a real combat zone. I just use KISS. Bought a Mossberg Flex in 20ga. Yep, 20ga. I enjoy shooting it often, can switch barrels and stocks for hunting and get the most use of it. I have enough shotguns sitting in the closet. And I can simply attach a Flashlight with a on and off switch for easy use. Do not have to give away my position.
    I do have a lovely semi auto, the Beretta 1200. Almost thought about just cutting the barrel off that as the 1200 was later used by the Military and Police as the the model 1201.
    Paul Harrell had a good suggestion of using a old hammer fired shotgun, so you could keep it safely loaded without wear down a firing pin spring.
     
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  4. Olon

    Olon Member

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  5. George P

    George P Member

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    Barrel length has nothing to do with how far shotgun pattern will work.
     
  6. Olon

    Olon Member

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    What does it do then? (Genuine question)
     
  7. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Affects handling while firing at moving targets.
     
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  8. George P

    George P Member

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    ^^^yep, called swing dynamics or Moment of Inertia. Short barrels and/or very light shotguns (like some of the 5.5# 28s) tend to swing fast, but also stop just as fast. Your ammo selection and choke selection will make the difference as to how tight the pattern is and how far it will hold that pattern.
     
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  9. Olon

    Olon Member

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    As an engineering student you're speaking my language! Makes sense I figure it must be a combination of that MOI and possibly longer "sight radius" so better precision long range. Even though you really just point and shoot I suppose that longer barrel helps your subconscious project where that shot is headed.
     
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  10. George P

    George P Member

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    When wingshooting or bird shooting, you do not use the sights, so sight radius is moot; your eyes are your sights and they guide your hands. Re: MOI, one thing I prefer if I am shooting a lightweight gun (especially 28 or 410) is to have 30+ inches of barrels to help in that regard, otherwise it feels really "whippy" and my swing is not smooth at all.
     
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  11. natman

    natman Member

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    Sight radius is a big deal on a 22 target rifle, where a shift of an 1/8" in POI is important. It's insignificant to the point of being meaningless on a shotgun.
     
  12. foxmeadow

    foxmeadow Member

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    Wouldn't hanging a mag extension and WML off the end of it counter the altered swing dynamic?

    A legit reason for going all Tommy Tactical..;)
     
  13. George P

    George P Member

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    There is never a good reason to go Tommy Tactical.......................EVER...............:p
     
  14. Olon

    Olon Member

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    One thing that seems obvious is know your gun and practice all the time. I regularly shoot a model 12. It's like an extension of my body. When hunting, I see a bird or what have you, and the gun swings up, safety comes of and trigger pulled in one motion. When I use my "tactical" 870, I find myself failing to get the safety off because it's in a different (in my opinion ill-advised) position. Clearly I don't shoot that gun nearly enough.
     
  15. entropy

    entropy Member

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    And an 870 is like an extension of my body. But a Model 12 is, too. You just flick your big-head safety on your 870 off with the inside of the trigger finger as the finger enters the trigger guard. What? You don't have a big-head safety on your 870? Why not? ;)
    I can do it with a regular 870 safety, it's just a little easier with the big-head one. I grew up shooting Remingtons; a 572 .22 a 742 .30-06, an 1100, then an 870, so it does come naturally, but I never had a problem with model 12's, except the first time I hunted with one, I forgot they had a safety; I had only shot Trap with them until then....:oops:
     
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  16. Olon

    Olon Member

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    Now there's a thought. I've been accused of having a big head but a big head safety? Didn't know they existed, so consider me educated :D
     
  17. entropy

    entropy Member

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  18. P5 Guy

    P5 Guy Member

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    How to work the bighead or regular safety when shooter is left-handed?
     
  19. George P

    George P Member

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    Reverse it.
     
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  20. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    I carried an 870 on the street whenever weapons were even a remote possibility... As a young - then a not so young cop, I've pointed a locked and loaded shotgun at too many live targets to count (maybe hundreds -possibly more...) and in all that time, 22 years in my case, I only fired one shot... Here's the secret - I never once had the safety off with the exception of the time I actually had to fire...

    Law enforcement is just one experience - but it emphasizes not shooting unless you're justified - and that's why I particularly liked the Remington (basic riot model, bead sight, four in the tube, ready to go) since I knew I could point it safely at anyone without the slightest chance of an accidental discharge. In short as I advanced on any live target my finger (that trigger finger) was never on the trigger - it was on the safety... In a heartbeat you clear the safety then reach for the trigger and you're ready to go, period.

    If you go looking for trouble on the street, weapon in hand, you need to be both ready to shoot - yet safe enough that you can be a trusted back-up or primary shooter - whatever is needed. Doing that with adrenaline pumping, scared half to death (in some situations if you aren't scared spitless - you ought to be...) - but that was the job.

    To this day, although I'm long out of police work if I reach for that popper my first action is to rack a round into the chamber - then get ready to act - one way or the other, with my trigger finger on the safety... No extra fancy safety - just the one that comes with the weapon from the manufacturer...

    Hope this helps.
     
  21. cheygriz

    cheygriz Member

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    Fighting shotgun.

    I trust the judgement of the USMC!

    Benelli M-4.
     
  22. Blkhrt13

    Blkhrt13 Member

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    I have had a couple long tube tactical shotguns. Anymore I don’t think my 590 is what it’s ganna take to get the work done. I think I’d be okay with a cutdown 500. Because honestly if I have that I prolly have the 9mm that’s right next to it. I have a single shot stashed. I need to cut it down. Speed seems as important as capacity. I prefer the Mossy to the remy. But it’s mostly just habit and experience by now.
     
  23. BigSteve57

    BigSteve57 Member

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    Interesting discussion on the Rem 870. I went to Rem's website and they have something like 30 models to choose from.

    I have a Benellli M4 and love it. It's my #1 go-to home defense firearm. Lately though I can't make out open sights without wearing special prescription shooting glasses. I'm not a combat experienced veteran or police officer however I'm assuming that there won't be time to fetch my glasses when/if the need arises as in "Excuse me Mr. home invader please wait until I get my glasses...".

    Night time is also a problem. How do I see without IR or a flashlight which could also be problematic? I do have a laser and a flashlight attached on the M4's magazine tube.

    To address this I've recently outfitted my #2 home defense firearm, a SIG P220 .45 acp with a Trijicon RMO6 for the above reasons and I now shoot pretty fast & well with it. The RM06 is just awesome IMHO. I can see at all light levels and I'm WAY more accurate than I ever was with open sights. Picture here: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ooting-autoloader.841213/page-2#post-10924779

    I'm going to have to do something. So to the question... given what I've said what do you all think about me adding a Scalarworks RMO6 bundle to my beloved M4? I've also considered Tritium inserts for the sights which would be cheaper but wouldn't help with eye focus. Do both?
    REF: https://scalarworks.com/shop/optic-mounts/sync-trijicon-rmr-mount/
     
  24. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

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    23 pages of "fighting" shotguns. Looks like it might be the new tactical firearm. Someone even posted that if the USMC were using a $1600 Benelli it had to be the ultimate solution. The tactical marketing really has a death grip on the consumer when it comes to shotguns. Reminds me of the AR market.

    No need to spend vast amounts of money on a shotgun for HD. This will cover 99% of the HD needs for the average male. Women may be a bit intimidated so a 20 ga something or other might be in order.

    https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/products2.cfm/ID/116309

    Save the money and buy a flat of shells (250), take it to a gravel pit and ventilate some water jugs. Don't forget to clean up your mess. This ain't exactly rocket science.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
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  25. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

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    I have a dot on a pistol. It helps a lot on a pistol for people who have older eyes like me. Shotguns are different. Pistols and rifles are designed for aimed fire, shotguns not so much. Most target guns are choked to provide a pattern at range. The old standard being a 30" pattern at 40 yards. Skeet guns (almost no choke) should pattern 30" at about 20 yards. Choke tubes have become standard in the industry so people don't worry about barrel choke anymore. One of the reasons the 870 became so popular before tubes became common was they built barrels in different lengths with different chokes so a guy could use his 870 for lots of different applications, including hunting deer. Slap a sight on a shotgun barrel and you have a decent 50 yard deer whacker.

    Back to aimed fire. I've owned at least a dozen shotguns. I used to hunt birds a lot and I shot trap for money. We used to call a defensive shotgun a door gun. If someone is trying to break into your house the door gun was the answer. No sights and no choke. Most people didn't even care if it had a bead on the muzzle because..........nobody was actually going to take the time to aim it. They were going to point it in the general direction and take somebody out.

    Here's why. Aiming isn't a thing to most people who use shotguns on targets and birds. The bead or rib on a shotgun isn't meant as an aiming device. It's an aid to orientate the muzzle with the eye. Your eye is the rear sight if you're going to put it in the context of sights. Lots of latitude there because a shotgun doesn't have a single point of impact like a pistol or rifle. Pattern your shotgun (cylinder or no choke) at 15 yards and you will understand why aimed fire isn't important.

    Now I know this may sound weird with all the tactical shotguns being sold with sights, but you don't need them unless you're shooting past 20 yards. That's a long way in a SD situation. Most would consider 15 yards to be max in a SD situation. I'm not shooting anyone past 15 yards unless they're shooting at me. Cops don't like to use shotguns much anymore because of innocent bystanders.

    Sights on a shotgun are a relatively new thing unless you wanted a slug gun for deer. I think it's mostly a marketing strategy. If you really must have a sight put a laser on it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
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