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On Fighting Shotguns....

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by Dave McCracken, Apr 12, 2008.

  1. cluttonfred

    cluttonfred Member

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    Because the 18.5 in barrels are meant to shoot rifled slugs, too, and a full choke is not recommended for that?
     
  2. jdh

    jdh Member

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    It just struck me as a bit of a contradiction that they marked the box for the primary ammo to be used in the gun with that statement.

    BTW, that is why I have a seperate slug gun. Making consistant 100 yd. head shots with a pump 12 ga. really irritates the sniper, excuse me, I mean long range precision rifle operator.
     
  3. Popcorn Coolie

    Popcorn Coolie Member

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    I'd say it's just common sense & preference.

    A high output flashlight does come in handy for identification and can be used to stun targets long enough to hinder their aggression or convince them to surrender. Provided you deploy the tactic correctly. But it's not a need it's an advantage. A distraction device that could disorient the challenger long enough to evade his line of fire giving you a safe position to return fire.

    In my opinion shell carriers get in the way and if you're not gonna paint the shells black you may as well not get a subdued finish to begin with.

    As for finish. It depends on how much stealth you prefer. All it takes is some light to bounce off of those red shells, brass blueing or wood. I notice those things in low light conditions so whatever draws my attention will surely draw someone else's.

    I prefer to use the term combat or tactical because it sounds like the tool of profesional instead of a barbarian. It's a strategical tool not a malicious tool.

    As for brand. Usually pump shotguns don't fail. They are so simplistic they really shouldn't fail, but I've seen it. Poor springs and poor machineing will eventtually produce sloppy action and unexpected failure.

    When you pay that extra money for an 870 a 590 or whatever you are really paying for reassurance. The reassurance that the gun will withstand wear and tear and operate when you need it to as long as it's properly maintained.

    Plus the M&P grade shotguns always cost more, because they are heavy duty and less are made.

    An 870 is so cheap anyway. Usually fin has them on sale for $159. 18" open or improved cylinder with bead sight. In my opinion it's well worth the $159.

    I got my Benelli Classic Nova with 18.5" OC Barrel with fixed blad rifle sights for $75. It was used as a T&E but it was refurbished. It works great. It looks kind of tacky, but whatever, I'm not putting on a fashion show.
     
  4. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    "I'm not putting on a fashion show"....

    Classic quote. Thanks.

    All too often, fashion seems to rule over common sense. If the local legend who kicks all butts on the shotgun courses wore lederhosen while so doing, German leather stocks would see a local spike.

    The Motto, "Whatever works" applies here.
     
  5. SWDoc

    SWDoc Member

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    Good input on doubles. Any thoughts on the Benelli M4 Tactical?

    Reliable auto makes sense to me, from a controllability standpoint (sp). I have heard of some fantastic times on multiple steel using the M4. Reliability seems to be acceptable, and the Nova I own for duck/goose is a really well built shotgun.

    Your opinions for this shotgun in HD?

    Steve
     
  6. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    No experience with the M4, or indeed with any of the Benellis.

    The Ayoob test would determine if it's acceptable for HD. 200 rounds of duty ammo glitchless. If it passes, I see no reason to ignore it.
     
  7. Jst1mr

    Jst1mr Member

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    Dave, or any other-

    I know the crux of the discussion is software vs hardware, but I gotta ask - if speed and agility are tantamount(given proficiency), then why not more mention of 20gauge? Less flash, recoil, weight, still packs a punch...
     
  8. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    Why not?

    I'm now out of touch, but I knew some B more narcs that favored 20 gauge SXS shotguns for raid guns.

    As to why there's not more on the 20.....

    Conservatism. What we have been using works.

    The More Is Better Principle. That's why we have 15 pellet 00 loads.

    Ammo commonality. The US shotgunner has been sold on the 12. Using the same gauge for hunting recreation and defense eases logistics.
     
  9. 1557

    1557 Member

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    I think use of the 20 ga. could bear some discussion. It's certainly less potent than the 12,of course,but I still think it will get the job done.
    I have taken two bobcats with a 20 ga. Browning at night using #3 buck.
    At the time that was the largest shot available for the 20 and may still be,I'm not really abreast of that.
    I happened to handle an 870 fighter in 20 ga. last week and I really liked the light weight and thought at the time it would be a very practical shotgun for the wife,due to the lighter weight and less wallop on the shoulder. I suppose I may have been just trying to justify it for myself as it was such a neat little package.:eek:
    In the end I passed on it,but there may be one in the future.
     
  10. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    1557, so do I.

    Shotgunners and those who may need shotguns come in all sizes.

    So do shotguns. A 20 gauge scaled to a 5', 100 lb shooter would be way more useable for him/her than my pet HD 12 gauge, all 9 plus lbs of it.

    The little 20 gauge YE here did nicely with 3 buck on the few Practical COFS I've done with it. Its current job is as quail gun. Speed and effectiveness are givens.

    In fact, that Mossberg 410 pump with proper ammo has a place also. Posit an elderly person with little upper body strength living in a place where handguns are prohibited.

    Matching the gun to the gunner is a great idea.
     
  11. tenbears

    tenbears Member

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    Almost any style of shotgun will do for home protection. A word of warning for apartment, condominium and any other living areas that are side by side. Do NOT use buckshot, use a lighter load. I prefer BB sized shot in an apartment type home cause you don't want to kill your neighbor if you have to shoot that thing.
    Just keep your weapon simple and easy to handle and practice allot. Just my thoughts.
     
  12. swordsman2000

    swordsman2000 Member

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    i just don't get the belief that a PG shotgun is "SOOOOO Terrible" compared to a stock...i got an 18 inch mossy cruiser, PG with a removeable sliding stock, and with my federal flight controls OO 9 pellet, i routinely put them all on the man target (spot of my choice) at 20 yards going PGO
     
  13. NvTwist

    NvTwist Member

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    I made a short video showing how important getting training and or just getting out there and shoot, shoot and shoot some more. I Bought this Maverick 88 from wal-mart one day on a whim just cause it was so cheap, I only stopped there to get some extra ear plugs for some friends I was taking out shooting with me. Bought a box of clays, manual clay thrower & ammo. I was impressed how smooth this cheap gun cycled and we all had a blast. Filmed this a few months later back in march of last year after I changed the long railed trap barrel out for a Mossberg 18.5".

    First up was a buddy of mine. This was not his first time shooting my 12ga, in fact this was the last few shells out of 4 boxes that day. I gave him a little challenge, fire as fast as he could while aiming and hitting his target, not just spray and pray. Then I was up, After I stopped laughing and replaying his clip over and over again I had to get a clip of me and the difference shows. Then just for fun had my girl film another volley well after the sun went down just for the fun of it cause these shells had a visible flame in full sunlight and the desert ground would dust itself off with every shot.
    Video link to YouTube

    I don't have any official training on shotgun and don't claim to be great by any means. I have attended a few courses at Front Sight for submachine training and cert, Long range rifle & then some sidearm skills.
    But this video I edited together easily shows its not the tool that gets the job done, it's the person behind the tool that matters most.
     
  14. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    Swordsman, run some drills with both a PGO and a regular stock on that Mossberg. Time them. Speed and accuracy will be better with the regular stock. Much better.

    Thanks for the vid, Nv. Proper technique is as essential as oxygen....
     
  15. swordsman2000

    swordsman2000 Member

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    dave..in this silly world of details..yes, overall a stock is more accurate...but since the world is a subjective one, a stock is not always "better"...in my home; tactically speaky, the stock is a hinderance..ntm i don't need to shoot anyone with my shooty at 20 yards unless complete civil disorder has occured...then the stock would go back on.:evil:

    too many people like to proprogate the myth that pgo can't hit worth a damn,,but that just ain't so
     
  16. sm

    sm member

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    Interesting.

    Just wanted to jot this down for future reference...
     
  17. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    Sigh...

    Until we can install an extra hinge in our forearm, the standard stock poses no disadvantage over the PGO in close scenarios if you insist on hip shooting.

    As far as your comment goes about 20 yards, I don't see any way to predict the distance of our next firefight. That's another reason to want a real stock.

    I've practiced out to 30 yards with buck and 100 yards with slugs. I've also worked some scenarios at one foot. The stock on my 870 was no handicap at any distance.
     
  18. 13.45

    13.45 Member

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    lots of good info here. KISS is one old saw that comes to mind. another is, "you fight as you train"
     
  19. xx7grant7x

    xx7grant7x Member

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    I'll throw my personal preferences in the ring, I agree with the diminished ability of a pistol grip only stock. On my hd gun I've got the speedfeed with the combination pistol grip/buttstock and love the enhanced feel of the gun. On the note of the speedfeed, it holds 4 shells inside the stock and in my opinion better to have something and not need it than need and not have so along with the speedfeed I've got a sidesaddle shell carrier alternating the way the shells go is a good trick for keeping different shells easily identifiable (i.e. slugs up buckshot down). and in my final necessity for HD I need a flashlight i know bad guys aren't always creeping around in the dark but alot of the time they are and if i can get any kind of advantage I'm going to take it. these are just my thoughts and preferences but thats what it's all about. It was great to read everyone else's ideas and and they gave me some new ones
     
  20. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    That's a nonsensical statement, because if the user didn't feel it increased efficiency, there would be no place for it on a fighting gun. It's also dangerous to assume what works best for others. I've fired more 5.56mm through carbines than all other ammunition types combined in my life. I was always using a peep sight. A GR sight fits easily into my training, and a sling and a shorter LOP stock made my 500 ready to go. I didn't go for an extended mag tube so my balance wouldn't be off.

    And I only use slugs, reduced recoil typically, with KOs on standbye for harder targets.
     
  21. sm

    sm member

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    Bold is mine.

    I have more trigger time on shotguns with no sights, front bead only , or mid bead.
    Barrels were most often 28" or longer.
    My "human computer" is distracted by hi-vis sights.

    Yes, even before The Great Equipment Race, we had our serious defensive lessons, and even "Two Gun" though we used rifle, shotgun and pistol, and used, bone stock, full stocked, longer barrel shotguns.

    There is no "one-size-fits-all", one must be brutally honest with what they can and cannot do, and what level of skill sets they have, with whatever platform they choose.

    Awerbuck said it best, and it is worth remembering:

    I will not be at your gunfight.

    Chilling if you really think about it, as none of your Intrawebz buddies that posted pics of kewl toys are going to be with you, nor will anyone that attended a class by Awerbuck, Clint Smith, or any other trainer, be with you as well.

    Aw man, this reality stuff sure does get in the way and muck up the joint at times...don't it?
     
  22. gtmerkley

    gtmerkley member

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    97 Winchester
     
  23. Limeyfellow

    Limeyfellow Member

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    I always preferred Ghost ring sights to the front bead. My eyesight is kind of funky, so I have trouble with bead sights and blade and notch sights on rifles too, so they have their place depending on the operator.

    On my 590 I never bothered with a magazine extender for weight, but I can put a light on it quite easily. I put on a quick detached sling too so it doesn't get tangled up with stuff in the house.

    I found the most important thing is to practice, especially with reloading preferably after every shot fired, while the rifle is held ready, but while I can use bead sights I am not sure I would be super comfortable relying on them, especially in the middle of the night situation.
     
  24. ar10

    ar10 Member

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    I've got a "cheapo" 500. I bought new on sale for 250.00 and got it for only one reason, home defense. It's simple and shoots every time. The only modification was getting one of those adjustable stocks because the original was just too long for me to use.
    A couple of years ago they started having "2 gun matches" at the range it go to and it included a shotgun/handgun scenario. I participate every month and it's a big help. The gun is simple to strip and clean and in the 8 years I've owned I've only had two malfunctions, both were my fault.
    Because it's a home defense gun I keep it loaded with the first two 00 buckshot, then 2 slugs and the rest 00 buckshot. One thing I did learn a long time ago is individuals intent on breaking into a house fear to things, a dog and the sound of someone racking a shotgun shell. (It was a criminal justice survey of convicted buglers while in incarcerated back in the 1980's).
     
  25. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    Years ago, I was in an RV camp. My wife and I worked third shift, and we often would take a walk to relax before going to bed.

    I guess we disturbed one of the residents, because we heard the Ker-Shak! of an SKS bolt slamming shut.

    Oddly enough, our walk took us away from that area immediately...Thing about this is, I never want to rely on "intimidation factor". Yes, it may work. Yes, it probably will work. If it doesn't work, I've just telegraphed my position and armament. I don't want to bet on may or probably. I'm willing to bet on a 1 oz slug that hits a human threat at 1200 fps, though.

    John
     

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