One "best" powder for 223/5.56 and 308 Win?

[Rule3]

I posted the letter direct from ADI that I sent a e mail to. I have it in front of me.

The only powder that is VARGET other than Varget is the ADI powder AA2208

I do not understand your post, The list is of Australian (ADI powders):confused:

So if you can buy Australian powder AA 2208 than it is the same.

Trail Boss is Trail boss.

ADI does not make powders for other companies other than Hodgdon/IMR

Regardless this has nothing to do with my OP.

 

[forestswin]

NEED more info
what the twist rates do you have in your 223? 308?
Barrel lengths?

what bullet weights are you planning on using?

you could probably use one powder if you use heavy bullets for caliber in both
or light for caliber in both
or medium for caliber in both

but that would come back to twist rate

 

[morcey2]

I posted the letter direct from ADI that I sent a e mail to. I have it in front of me.

The only powder that is VARGET other than Varget is the ADI powder AA2208

I do not understand your post, The list is of Australian (ADI powders):confused:

So if you can buy Australian powder AA 2208 than it is the same.

Trail Boss is Trail boss.

ADI does not make powders for other companies other than Hodgdon/IMR

Regardless this has nothing to do with my OP.

The list I was referring to was the one linked on the ADI website. I think we're saying the same thing, but differently.

As to the original question, a lot will depend on bullet weights. You said that you're just mostly doing range shooting, not bench rest or hunting. If you use the standard mid-range weights for both (55 gr for 223, 150 gr for 308), anything between H-322 on the fast end and Varget/W748 on the slow end would work. Mid-speed powders like H4895, AA-2230, H-335, or TAC would be a good starting point for both.

I've only just started loading for 223. My rifle doesn't like CFE223 but seems to like both Varget and W748. CFE was giving me 2" groups with 60 gr vmax where Varget was giving 3/4" groups across a relatively wide charge range with the same bullet. I've only used 748 with 55 gr FMJ-BT and I get about 1.5" groups, but that's much better than factory loads with the same bullet from the same gun. Varget and IMR-4064 are the go-to powders for quite a few people in 308. I'm going to be loading 308 starting in a couple of weeks. IMR-4064 has pretty big grains so it wouldn't be great in 223 because of the small neck. It meters pretty well in my Lee PPM and gives me great accuracy in 30-06, 7x57, and 257 Bob.

Matt

 

[Kaldor]

IMR 8208 XBR

Good temp stability
Consistent metering in rotary drops
Works well in all 223 loads Ive tried from 50-75gr bullets.
Works well in all 308 loads Ive tried from 125-168gr bullets

Only other choice Id try is CFE 223.

 

[Rule3]

IMR 8208 XBR

Good temp stability
Consistent metering in rotary drops
Works well in all 223 loads Ive tried from 50-75gr bullets.
Works well in all 308 loads Ive tried from 125-168gr bullets

Only other choice Id try is CFE 223.

Yes, I have been reading up on 8208XBR I do have 1lb of it, never tried it yet.

The "sticks" are very small. Heck it has a fancy label also! Seems like it can do "anything"

http://www.imrpowder.com/8208xbr.html

 

[Rancher5]

I used about 75% of pound of BL-C(2) on .308Win load development using 165gr SST and was not really impressed. I found that low end loads proved to be sufficiently accurate but man were those cases smokey. I found another accuracy node around 46 gr but the test firing was done in single digit weather and when I tried the load again at 60 degrees F I was sorely disappointed... the cases were cleaner though.

I've read that BL-C was a military ball load powder but I didn't like the dirty cases in my bolt gun, I wouldnt dare try that load in a direct impingement firearm. I don't like spending more time than necessary cleaning so take this comment with a grain of salt.

Edit: my load development was based on Hodgdon data but used magnum primers

BCL2 is awesome 308 powder except as you found out Temperature effects it greatly. Still in mild to warm weather it's easy to load, just think of the smoke as good cover.

 

[Rule3]

The list I was referring to was the one linked on the ADI website. I think we're saying the same thing, but differently.

As to the original question, a lot will depend on bullet weights. You said that you're just mostly doing range shooting, not bench rest or hunting. If you use the standard mid-range weights for both (55 gr for 223, 150 gr for 308), anything between H-322 on the fast end and Varget/W748 on the slow end would work. Mid-speed powders like H4895, AA-2230, H-335, or TAC would be a good starting point for both.

I've only just started loading for 223. My rifle doesn't like CFE223 but seems to like both Varget and W748. CFE was giving me 2" groups with 60 gr vmax where Varget was giving 3/4" groups across a relatively wide charge range with the same bullet. I've only used 748 with 55 gr FMJ-BT and I get about 1.5" groups, but that's much better than factory loads with the same bullet from the same gun. Varget and IMR-4064 are the go-to powders for quite a few people in 308. I'm going to be loading 308 starting in a couple of weeks. IMR-4064 has pretty big grains so it wouldn't be great in 223 because of the small neck. It meters pretty well in my Lee PPM and gives me great accuracy in 30-06, 7x57, and 257 Bob.

Matt

In this thread, post #15 shows the powders made by ADI for Hodgdon/IMR as of the date I emailed them, The "equivalent chart" only shows powders that are close based on burn rate within 5% but is not a direct substitution chart by any means.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=797388

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=218304&d=1454302961

 

[Slamfire]

In my opinion the best powder for 308 and 223 is Varget. The original 308 cartridge was developed using IMR 4895

History of T65 Cartridge

Reference: page 49 Oct 1973 American Rifleman

The preliminary drawing for the experimental cal 30 short cartridge was completed at Frankford Arsenal on Dec 12 1944, under the nomenclature Cartridge Ball, Cal. 30, T65. The T designation indicated a test items. The preliminary load development work was done at Aberdeen Proving Ground early in 1945.

On March 6, 1945, Frankford Arsenal was directed to produce 15,000 T65 cartridges for experimental test barrel firing. Manufacture of this ammunition, using IMR propellant, was completed in August 1945. This loading gave an average instrumental velocity of 2600 fps at 78 ft from the muzzle.
After the initial production by Frankford Arsenal, development of the T65 cartridge continued with the assistance of Olin Mathewson chemical Corp and Remington Arms Co. On Dec 15 1953, the final form of the T65 cartridge, the T65E3, was adopted as the 7.62 mm NATO by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization nations of Belgium, Canada, France, United Kingdom, and the United States. Formal standardization of this round as a U.S. rifle-caliber military cartridge occurred in August 1954.

Until Varget came around, I recommended any of the IMR 4895 types of powder, the series is H4895, IMR 4895 and AA2495. I have used these powders in 308 Win and 223 and both cartridges shoot outstandingly with any of these powders. Buy by price.

 

[Kaldor]

Yes, I have been reading up on 8208XBR I do have 1lb of it, never tried it yet.

The "sticks" are very small. Heck it has a fancy label also! Seems like it can do "anything"

http://www.imrpowder.com/8208xbr.html

Not sure about anything, but I like it. Runs great on my Hornady rotary drop.

I think its a little fast burning for heavy 308 projectiles. Both of the 4895's have about the same burn rate, or just a touch slower. For heavy 308 Id use CFE 223 if I wanted a ball powder that I can on a progressive or Varget or 4320 or something similar and I just run those thru the Chargemaster.

Ive tested 8208 in 223 on everything from 50gr to 77gr bullets. Never had any issues with accuracy. I still load my 55gr FMJBTs with H335 tough, as its a cheap effective shooter load from my 18" Green Mtn barreled AR15 that hovers right around an inch in my rifle.

I do load 150gr Hornady FMJBT's with CFE 223 for a load that I can shoot without breaking the bank. Easy sub inch accuracy from a $.17 bullet with an easy to use powder that I can run on my progressive. Shoots great out of my 26" Criterion barreled Savage model 10.

 

[Kaldor]

In my opinion the best powder for 308 and 223 is Varget. The original 308 cartridge was developed using IMR 4895

History of T65 Cartridge

Reference: page 49 Oct 1973 American Rifleman

Until Varget came around, I recommended any of the IMR 4895 types of powder, the series is H4895, IMR 4895 and AA2495. I have used these powders in 308 Win and 223 and both cartridges shoot outstandingly with any of these powders. Buy by price.

Ill agree with you on Varget. Its a good powder, but it meters for s___, so you have to trickle it to get any accuracy. Any of those long grain stick powders, ugg.

 

[Rule3]

I have never seen let alone bought Varget It is no existent to me.

Seems everyone loves it, it also appears to be one of the slowest burning rifle powders.

 

[ColoradoShooter77]

You can't go wrong with H4895, its the "unique" of rifle powders.

 

[Gtscotty]

I have never seen let alone bought Varget It is no existent to me.

Seems everyone loves it, it also appears to be one of the slowest burning rifle powders.

Nah, it's middle of the road burn rate wise, like IMR 4064.

https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Burn Rates - 2015-2016.pdf

Great powder for .223 and .308 though, I wish I could find some more, I'm down to my last couple pounds right now.

 

[forestswin]

Based on the information provided in Hornady's 8th edition

Varget, IMR 4895 and W748 seem to cover the widest selection of most bullet weights used with 223 and 308 rifles.

AR COMP seems to cover 55 grain to 68 grain bullets in a 223
and
150 grain to 168 grain bullets in a 308

Likewise, 8208 XBR seems to cover bullet weights ranging from 40 grains to 60 grains in 223
and
150 grains to 168 grains in a 308 - but I do not know how 8208 XBR does with the faster twist rates of 223 and 308 AR-style semi-auto's

Hope that helps!

 

[FROGO207]

The way I see it you are looking for the Swiss Army Knife of 223/5.56 and 308/7.62X51 propellants. Sort of good enough but I could do better performance wise type of thing. I feel that the good enough for minute of deer with several propellants has already been covered. I personally tried several propellants for each caliber in several different firearms. They all had a BEST that was not necessarily the same even within calibers. If you want good accuracy AND temp stability then you should at least settle for large containers of a best for each caliber at a minimum. As far as best all around in my assorted firearms in those calibers-----. For 223/5.56 I like H335. For 308 I like Varget. YMMV

 

[RecoilRob]

I've been playing with AR Comp lately as it was available when most of the others were not...and it works nicely! Kind of like a temperature stabilized RL-15 from what the manufacturer says though I can't comment on that part as I've not had the chance to shoot anything in hot weather yet. Damn Global Warming anyhow! Where the heck is it and why won't it come here to PA?

 

[Rule3]

I've been playing with AR Comp lately as it was available when most of the others were not...and it works nicely! Kind of like a temperature stabilized RL-15 from what the manufacturer says though I can't comment on that part as I've not had the chance to shoot anything in hot weather yet. Damn Global Warming anyhow! Where the heck is it and why won't it come here to PA?

Global Warming? It is down here in Florida all darn year!

 

[Dudedog]

Haven't used them in .308 but I liked BLC(2) and 8208 in .223. I would call 8208 a flattened ball not a stick powder. Meters well.
Between the 2 my rifle liked BLC(2) a bit better.

 

[entropy]

BL-C(2), AA2230, and Varget all work well in both.