One shot stopping power 40s&w vs 45acp

[SFvet]

Exactly ... there is no such thing as handgun effectivness so it becomes a tactical philosphy! Look at the numbers - they are all realitively the same in foot pounds and OSS give or take a couple hundred foot pounds or two or three percent. Compare those numbers to 1500ft/lb intermediate or 2500ft/lb full power cartridges and you have true effectiveness.

When a rifle is not available, then choose any of the common calibers and shoot until the threat is nutralized.

 

[possum]

unless you have a single shot; one shot stopping power dosen't matter.
put as many rds on target that are needed, no more no less, if that is one then fine, but most likly that is noty gonna be enough unless you get lucky. shot placement shot placement, or as they say location location location.

 

[Turk]

Knowing the data from one shot stops is great but since nothing is 100% I will double tap center mass and the third if needed to the groin area. This area is larger than the head and the BG will be down. If I remember right it's called the Mozambique drill from the 1970's

Turk

 

[MDW GUNS]

I don't think there is a big difference, but I would perfer the .40 because the grip is smaller and you have about 1-3 more rounds in most guns.

 

[riverdog]

Stopping power?

I had a .40SW G22 and went to the G-21 .45 ACP due to the snappier recoil of the .40. Then I swapped out the G22 upper for a G17 upper so I could shoot 9mm instead of .40 in what was my G22. 9mm is very controllable with more rounds in the magazine and with 147 gr JHP, plenty of penetration. With good shot placement in won't matter that I only hit with a 9mm. With bad shot placement it won't matter that I missed with a .357 Mag, .45, .40 or 10mm.

 

[tipoc]

One shot stopping power 40s&w vs 45acp
i know this has been debated 100 times before, but i,ve heard so much about the 45acp being the end all, in terms of one shot stop power, my question is this, since the 40s&w is pretty darn close in weight when you consider a higher grained round above 180gr of 40s&w, would'nt this round be pretty damn close if not more punchier because of the added velocity? im talking one shot knock down power, im curious as to why the 45acp is still more widely used than the 40s&w, i know bigger is better, so is the 40 always going to follow in the shadows of the 45, and im not an advocate for either, i love them both just curious?

There is more than one question in the ops paragraph so if we sort it out it and maybe rephrase it, it can be answered.

Given that the .40S&W, even though the bullet is lighter than that for the .45 acp , can because of it's increased energy at the muzzle, be as effective as the .45acp will it ever replace it in popularity?

The 40 S&W can be as effective as the 45acp depending on the gun, the length of it's barrel and the load used. A 165 gr. 40 S&W expanding bullet at 1200 fps can be as effective as a 185 gr. .45 acp expanding bullet at 1050-1100 if both penetrate deeply enough and expand as they should. Both will have close to or over 400 Ft. pds of energy and enough weight to penetrate deeply.

In the .45 a heavier 230 hp will work well out of the longer 5" barreled GM while the shorter barreled semis and wheelguns tend to do better with the lighter 185gr. or 165 gr. loads.

Heavier loads like the 185 gr. in the 40 S&W lose a little energy while the 165 gr loads have plenty and enough weight for penetration.

So it comes down to which the shooter prefers and what guns they prefer and handle best. And as always the most important factor is the shooter and their skills.

The 40S&W is a very popular round and rightly so. It's a good one and can do the job of self defense well. It will never be as popular as the 45acp. One, because that round is also very good and Two, the .45 acp has an 80 year head start on the 40S&W and has been chambered in semis and revolvers for close to 100 years now and has been chambered in some of the best guns ever made.

tipoc

 

[harrygunner]

Scientists sometimes define parameters that need not be physical. These parameters are maps of complex state vectors into a scalar. Often internal state vectors are not directly measurable or may be difficult to model. The parameter is defined so that maximizing or minimizing it identifies an optimal state without needing to understand the complexities of the state.

So, a "one shot stop" is such a parameter. It is not a physical parameter. It does not dictate that a perp be stopped by a single shot in the real world.

A famous data set is not "out of the box" in the sense that it identifies a .25 ACP as being less likely to maximize that parameter than a .45 ACP.

Better OSS data may or may not bring better understanding of this complex issue. But at least understand what 'OSS' is about.

 

[jaholder1971]

Stopping power is a myth.

This debate is simple: Whatever is capable of allowing you to make accurate shots where you aim is the caliber you should carry.

There are no absolutes. There are no either/or or neither/nor in self defense. Do not pretend there are.

 

[jpwilly]

Stopping power is a myth.

Please explain how stopping power is a myth? Because it goes by so many other names i.e. penetration, expansion, energy? "Stopping Power" is a term used to explaing the overall capability of a round and both the 40 and 45 are have more "Stopping Power" than a BB gun...that's not a myth (or is it?)

 

[itgoesboom]

"One shot stops" = Term that people seem to get from Marshall and Sanow, and their very poor research, where a person who is shot once and stops is considered a "stop", but a person shot 10 times isn't included in the data.

Never rely on "One shot". Too many factors are involved, many of them not related to the bullet's design or caliber.

"Stopping power" = Term that implies that the bullets energy somehow stops the aggressor, which is false. That's the idea that Hollywood uses whenever someone shot is thrown through a window.

There are professional's who study wound ballistics out there, and they will publish their data.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/iwba.htm

As for the difference between .40S&W and .45ACP, there isn't going to be much difference.

Choose what you like, and what you shoot well. Buy good ammo, test for reliability, and practice.

 

[basicblur]

Who was it (Ayoob?) that said (in answer to the question):
Why did you shoot him 7 times?
Because 6 wasn't enough, and 8 would have been too many!

 

[C-grunt]

From my experience as a police officer, most people are going to stop what they're doing when shot. Everybody that I have seen shot has either fallen down or run away. Of the 6 some odd officers that I know that have been in shootings, only one bad guy died from a armpit to armpit shot, side profile with a .45. One of my partners has been in two shootings and shot each bad guy at least three times with his .45 including headshots each time. Both incidents the bad guys lived because of no COM hits and the headshots ricochetted (spelling?) off of the skull. But both criminals did stop from the shoulder and gut shots. Good aim trumps caliber any time.

BUT that being said, you cant count on it, especially with drugged up or determined criminals.

 

[jaholder1971]

Quote:
Stopping power is a myth.
Please explain how stopping power is a myth? Because it goes by so many other names i.e. penetration, expansion, energy? "Stopping Power" is a term used to explaing the overall capability of a round and both the 40 and 45 are have more "Stopping Power" than a BB gun...that's not a myth (or is it?)

Stopping power is nothing more than a marketing ploy.

There is no solid factual data that any handgun cartridge, or rifle cartridge for that matter, will stop an aggressor more or less than another. None.

There was a female LAPD officer who took a .357 slug to the heart and lived. More people are murdered with .22's than any other cartridge. Or the homeless guy who took a flesh wound to the hand from a .32 ACP and died from shock?

While Marshall and Sanow's data appears to be more accurate than throwing a dart at a list of handgun calibers and ammo manufacturers, they've never been too forthcoming with the information used to come to their conclusion and never been subject to real scrutiny.

There are folks out there who won't carry X brand off ammo in their Glock Y because it's 3-4 percentage points lower than Z ammo according to data allegedly gleaned from actual shootings, the details of which the 2 authors have yet to release.

Your best bet: Find the handgun that you can shoot the best, load it with the highest quality performance ammunition that is the most accurate in your weapon and hope for the best.

 

[Ltlabner]

Lasers. The only safe bet.

 

[itgoesboom]

BUT that being said, you cant count on it, especially with drugged up or determined criminals.

Exactly. Most encounters will end before shots are fired. Most shots fired will result in the bad guy quitting. Most times shots are fired, there isn't a fatality.

Much of that is due to the mental condition of the bad guy. Most don't really want to be shot, and the whole, "OMG, I just got shot, I better stop doing what I was doing" realization.

But relying on a psychological stop, where the bad guy gives up is bad tactics, because it is hoping for a best case outcome.

Hope is a terrible tactic.

 

[BlindJustice]

.45 ACP & .40 S&W Bullet Weight vs Velocity

THe O.P. asked about what about .40 S&W in the heavier
bullet weight like 180 gr. ( where it loses velocity advantage ) vs .45 ACP
in the ear bullet weight of 185 gr. ?

Rather a nonsensical question in some respects since once
you make the cartridge choice the other cartridge can choose
whatever they want to...

How about some numbers from a range of bullet weights
in both from the same manufactuerer that has no agenda
promoting one over the other?

Double Tap Ammo offeringss
.45 ACP ----------------- .40 S&W -----

185 gr Speer Gold Dot JHP 155 gr. SPeer Gold Dot JHP
1225 fps 616 ft lbs 1,275 FPS 560 ft. lbs
200 gr. Speer Gold DOt JHP 165 gr. Speer Gold Dot JHP
1125 FPS 562 Ft lbs 1,200 FPS 528 fl lbs
230 gr. Speer Gold DOt JHP 180 gr. Speer Gold DOt JHP
1,010 FPS 521 FPS 1,100 FPS @ 484 ft lbs l

The only way a BG would know the diffference
is if the shooter misses the mark out of the above examples.

Joe Friday - just the facts Ma'am

 

[Phil DeGraves]

The 40 S&W can be as effective as the 45acp depending on the gun, the length of it's barrel and the load used.

Only if the user does his part, and/or the bad guy believes he will die if shot.

45 ACP & .40 S&W Bullet Weight vs Velocity

Anytime you change weight, etc. you also change a host of other variables such as sectional density and ballistic coefficient, so you can't reach any meaningful conclusions because it is impossible (or at least, implausible) to separate each factor to determine exactly which has what effect on the target.

 

[rcmodel]

One shot stopping power 40s&w vs 45acp?

Who plans or trains to shoot just once?

rcmodel

 

[springmom]

Stopping power is nothing more than a marketing ploy.

There is no solid factual data that any handgun cartridge, or rifle cartridge for that matter, will stop an aggressor more or less than another. None.

Exactly. Repeat after me: All. Handguns. Suck. If you want a one shot stop then you'd best be using a 12 gauge with a slug in it. And even then you still have to hit properly.

I like the .40, although I no longer have a gun in that caliber (traded it for a BHP in 9mm). I have and very much like a Kimber in .45. Neither gun would leave me under-armed in a conflict on the basis of caliber. However, the number of rounds in a magazine and the number of perps is an issue too. After my recent incident, I've switched to an XD-9 with 13+1 and Hornady TAP rounds in the mags. It yields better math if I'm ever again looking at three guys versus just little old lady me.

There is no such thing as one shot stopping power for a round. Shoot what you shoot best, in the gun that works for you.

Springmom

 

[jad0110]

Your best bet: Find the handgun that you can shoot the best, load it with the highest quality performance ammunition that is the most accurate in your weapon and hope for the best.

That says it right there. The only #s you should be concerned with are:

1. Ammo cost (40 S&W does have a significant edge over 45 ACP here, but I reload, so that is less of a concern to me)

2. Penetration depth: In the caliber of your choice, select a load that is reliable, you can control and preferrably meets at least some minimum depth (12" FBI requirement for example)

As other said, one-shot-stop is dependent upon precise bullet placement and the psycological makeup of the person shot. Others have said that handguns don't have a gauranteed one-shot-stop capability. Heck, even rifles and shotguns don't possess that.

 

[FLA2760]

I like both calibers but it is shot placement that counts.

 

[ge0624me]

im back, thx for all the replies to this topic

i saw some some mention a few post back that stopping power is a myth, because size did'nt matter? why is it that all the lineman on a football team are bigger? thats stopping power...would you rather get hit by a ford excursion or an escort, laws of physics...not the same but just a comparison,...but there has to be a difference being made somewhere in the physicality right?

 

[hso]

No such thing.

There is no 100% guaranteed pistol caliber that will 100% guarantee that someone shot with one round will stop. Placement, mindset, physical condition all play too much of a role.

Are there some ammunition combinations that have a better chance of stopping a BG? The question almost becomes what are the worst so you can exclude the losers, because the high percentage stop category has several .40, 10mm and .45 options.

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

i saw some some mention a few post back that stopping power is a myth, because size did'nt matter? why is it that all the lineman on a football team are bigger? thats stopping power...would you rather get hit by a ford excursion or an escort, laws of physics...not the same but just a comparison,...but there has to be a difference being made somewhere in the physicality right?

Physics. Pure and simple. For every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction. If handguns (of any caliber) had the level of force you seem to think they do, you would feel it when you fired it.

Meaning if a .45ACP had enough power to throw a guy back 3 feet when hit guess what would happen when you fired the gun? If you guessed thrown back 3 feet you are right. The fact that you don't should give you an idea that the amount of force involved is very small. It has to be to make the round manageable. None of that will change until some other system is developed other than firearms. You could tomorrow design a 200 caliber handgun with 8x the pressure levels of a 9mm of course it would be likely break the arm of the person trying to fire it. You can't overcome physics. In order to keep the recoil manageable calibers & pressure levels are chosen that are (relatively) small.

Bullets don't rely on massive amounts of power to stop a threat. Bullets have just enough momentum to penetrate deeply enough to strike a critical area. The bullets impact doesn't stop a target the loss of blood pressure, or damage to vital organs stops the target.

Another way to look at it to look at the effects of body armor. Body armor doesn't magically make the power or momentum in the bullet go away. A person hit by a round wearing body armor absorbs the same level of force as someone hit by a round wearing nothing. The difference is the body armor prevents the bullet from penetrating the body and cutting/tearing/damaging vital organs. If bullets killed by sheer force then body armor would do no good. Just like striking someone wearing body armor with 30,000 ft/lbs of force (i.e swing a massive steel girder and strike them in the chest). The body armor does what it is suppose to, it distributes the force evenly however the overwhelming force would cause crush damage that the human body can't survive.

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

There is no 100% guaranteed pistol caliber that will 100% guarantee that someone shot with one round will stop. Placement, mindset, physical condition all play too much of a role.

There is no civilian non-explosive caliber that has guaranteed stopping power.

40mm grenade launcher.

Even with normal fragmentation rounds aren't 100% effective due to the random nature of shapenel (if the shrap hits vital area you die, if not you likely won't).

Combine it with a round like 40mm thermobaric grenade.

Rather than rely on shrapenel to damage target (which suffers same limitations as any bullet does) the charge creates a overpressure blast wave. To simply its operation, the target is simply crushed. Human body transmits shock waves very well, as does body armor. The body is struck by a massive wall of pressure which damages the internal organs.

http://www.rdecom.army.mil/rdemagazine/200308/itf_multipurpose_cartridges.html

Of course I don't think civilans are going to ever gain access to something like this.