One shot stopping power 40s&w vs 45acp

[frankd4]

I am a lover of 1911's I love the feel and the power both are about the same get what makes you happy then shoot, shoot and shoot some more it's all about shot placement.

 

[basicblur]

How 'bout one-shot stops for bears?


Actually I've got a bear deterrence question going on in another thread-doing research in case they start allowing CC in national parks.

Anywho...I know some folks love to hate 'em (I got tired of reading why), but I used Marshall & Sanow's data as a starting point (since there's now newer stuff out there) when selecting my self defense loads a few years back.
Fer the heckuvit, here's what they list and it's "one shot" percentages:
40 S&W
1. Remington 165-gr. Golden Saber 94%
2. CCI 155-gr. Gold Dot 93%
3. Federal 155-gr. Hydra-Shok 93%
4. Federal 155-gr. JHP 89%
45 ACP
1. Federal 230-gr. Hydra-Shok 96%
2. Remington 185-gr. Golden Saber 96%
3. Speer 230-gr. Gold Dot 93%
4. Remington 185-gr. +P 92%

There results seem to jive with "conventional" wisdom, and since it's supposed to be taken from real-world data there's no reason it shouldn't?

 

[Harley Man]

Hey geo624me I loved the come back on page 1.
All I have to say is:
Yea that I walk through the "Vally of Death" I shall fear NO Evel, for I have under my left arm pit a S & W Model 29 44 Mag.
Heck everyone has something worth saying you can gleen from this site!

 

[30mag]

I think that the "stopping power" of those two rounds are too close to make any difference.
The energy of the two rounds is really about the same...

And, is it a revolutionary idea that energy is proportional to stopping power? Because all I've heard is that 'size matters' even if it is only one or two little millimeters.. but I think I'd rather have a .30-06 over a .45 any day, and it's a smaller round, but it's much faster, and therefore has more stopping power, right?
Of course, shot placement is key.. blah, blah.

 

[30mag]

Heh, model 29...

"Feelin' lucky punk?"

 

[Harley Man]

30mag when I thake the Model 29 to the range and let go a couple of rounds I notice people up and down the line stop shooting and wait for the next round down range. It is a gun that demands respect for sure.....sorry I got off the Thread

 

[cookekdjr]

In my review of quite a few shootings in my job, I have found 40, 45, and 357 to be roughly equal in performance.
-David

 

[chieftain]

30mag when I thake the Model 29 to the range and let go a couple of rounds I notice people up and down the line stop shooting and wait for the next round down range. It is a gun that demands respect for sure.....sorry I got off the Thread

Yea sure, but the results that were demanded in my world were stated at Parris Island for me 43 years ago:

MY RIFLE AND MYSELF KNOW WHAT COUNTS IN WAR IS NOT THE ROUNDS WE FIRE, THE NOISE OF OUR BURST, NOR THE SMOKE WE MAKE. WE KNOW THAT IT IS HITS THAT COUNT. WE WILL HIT...

--Major General William H. Rupertus

Applies to handguns too, including very powerful ones. And I still live by it today. It got me through two years of combat with the 3rdMarDiv.

It's about software, not hardware.

If which caliber is your question, I don't believe you understand the problem. The caliber question is answered by which platform that you have chosen. That gun hopefully Chosen for all the right reasons, reliability, reliability, reliability, and it fitting you, and not you fitting it. What ever caliber that weapon was originally designed in, is usually the best answer.

How well and effectively you can deploy that weapon is a matter for you and your trainer. Changing weapons or calibers will not make the bad guys drop any faster. Your mindset, your war-fighting skills and tactics, your maintenance of both your skill set and weapon, mixed with your war making/fighting mind set, will determine if you win a fight. Not caliber.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[Defensory]

Emphasis mine:

Question: "Isn’t shot placement the most important requirement in a shooting incident, and doesn’t that make the issue of caliber less important??"

Answer: "Shot placement is obviously critical, and our test criteria presume that the shot is placed in the vital area of the body which contains the brain, upper spinal cord, heart and aorta/vena cava. This area runs from just above the eyes to the diaphragm, and is about 4 inches wide.

But, as our experience in Miami amply illustrates, shot placement is only the first part of the equation. Jerry Dove placed his shot perfectly. Bullet performance is critical to translate shot placement into an effective, incapacitating wound. If shot placement was all that mattered, we could arm all Agents with .22’s.

Secondly, perfect shot placement may be difficult to attain in the stress and dynamics of a shooting incident. The larger calibers offer a “margin of error” in that where a smaller bullet may just miss the aorta, for example, the larger one in the same placement will damage it.

A good example is killing a 400 pound pig with a .22, something commonly done on the farm. If the shot placement is exactly right, the pig is instantly killed. If it is off less than an inch, the pig goes wild and the process of killing it becomes rather lengthy and involved, whereas a larger caliber would succeed with a larger margin of miss than an inch. (Larger calibers are not used because they ruin too much of the pig - a consideration that does not come into play in a shooting incident - and besides which, nobody is going to die if the pig is not instantly killed anyway. In shootings, just the opposite is true)."

Special Agent Urey Patrick III
Assistant Director, FBI Firearms Training Unit
Quantico, VA

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

 

[chieftain]

From Frogman, on the SEAL forum on Tactical Forums. 8/24/06

Frogman’s answer about a prediction he had made in 2003 that the SEAL’s would phase out their 9mm SIG 226:

Good question. You're right. Nothing has changed. My opinion is that the Teams might as well keep the SIG around. P226's are excellent pistols. I would prefer them in the P226R or P226R Tactical mode. I also think we should procure X200B lights for the as yet unissued "R" variants (until a better light comes out).

Those "experts" in NSW that waved a "new pistol is coming" banner have become rather quiet, lately. As an aside, everyone I know to have personally shot an enemy with a 9mm ended up killing them quite effectively. I personally, have not been in that situation, but have been close enought to confirm the results. Shot placement is still key (as in any handgun wound).

I don't necessarily think that there is a need for a new handgun for the Teams. As for the rest of SOF or the military in general, well, I'm sure they have their opinions. The Mk 23 and the P226 do the job pretty well where I work.

I've long felt that we should spend our energy getting widespread authorization to use some more lethal types of commercially available ammo for all of our weapon systems (plainly put, hollow points). I think the development of entirely new weapon systems based on entirely new cartridges is a waste of time at this stage in the war.

Frogman

It's about mindset, tactics, and training. Not caliber.

Okay, went through this in the late 80's, I guess we have to do it again today.

Here is THR take on the incident. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=52070 and the ultimate conclusions are pretty well said.

I recommend two other Forums to visit. TacticalForums.com and 10-8Forums.com. Both of these forums are populated by military, LEO, and other professional operators within the shooting community. Not a lot of yahoo's either.

Much of what amateurs believe is myth, or misapplied stories. Are the guys at these forums perfect, nope, but they are evolving, every day. If you want to know what real life operators are doing, with what, how and why, read them.

In the tactical forums, Dr Gary Roberts, the leading authority on wound ballistics in the world has his own forum. Read more, speak less. Several other Doctors who are doing terminal ballistic work often visit and advise.

I don't always agree with them, but their science is useful, and I agree with them a lot more than I disagree.

Once again, it’s about software, not hardware. If you think caliber is the question, you don’t understand the problem.

As in 1986, the shootout is a classic example of what happens when poor mindset, lack of proper preparation, and bad tactics come together. It ain’t about one round of IIRC 78 fired by the good guys failing, it did exactly what it was expected to do. Fundamentally it is a classic tactics failure, don’t bring a pistol to a rifle fight. Both bad guys were trained and motivated.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[ursus americanas]

Every time I see these _vs_ debates, I browse through them to see if there is any data, there never is.

If anyone is serious about this question, not just bored and looking to light a fire, I'd love to know where one can find actual data.

As in civilian shootings by number of shots, caliber, and outcome. Plug that into STATA9, MATLAB, MINITAB, S+, etc... run a regression with sample space limited to whatever number of shots and outcome of your desire, use dummy variables to catch the fixed effect of caliber. And you have your answer.

That, of course, wouldn't tell you WHY one caliber stops attackers more often than others, you could still speculate all you want.....

 

[Pro-Gun Teacher]

A 2000 LB JDAM works pretty good for one shot placement. Other than that, I would prefer to throw my own poo because it just really freaks bad guys out.

 

[Harley Man]

Pro-Gun Teacher sure wish we had JDAM's in Viet Nam....
F-4 Crew Chief....SEA 1970 - 1971

 

[chieftain]

Pro-Gun Teacher sure wish we had JDAM's in Viet Nam....
F-4 Crew Chief....SEA 1970 - 1971

Me too.

More of my buddy's would be alive. Many of us FAC's were taken out by our own ordinance. Snakes (Primarily MK82 500 lbs with Snake eye non-ballistic fins) weren't to bad, but those non-ballistic napalm canisters can do some really crazy things. Most of those crazy things, don't equal going straight or staying on target.

That is all assuming that the Flight was on target to begin with.

Go figure.

Fred