One shot stops

[1 old 0311]

I have read about the Strosburg, Marshall, Hatcher, model clay, and gelitan tests for one shot stops with a handgun. Does anyone, or would anyone, shoot in a defensive situation and only fire one round? I hit the range once a week and practice with double or triple hits. Are these 'tests' really that valuable or do we just buy the top shelf ammo to make us feel good?

Kevin

 

[TexasRifleman]

Are these 'tests' really that valuable or do we just buy the top shelf ammo to make us feel good?

You know the answer to this don't you?


Hitting what you aim at is #1. Hitting it again and again is #2.

What kind of cool looking box the ammo came in is #461

But, we're all guilty of that at one time or another.
I have been REALLY bad about it at times.

You have brought up a very interesting topic.

You'll get radical answers on both sides I'm sure.

For me I guess, I know that a good solid hit with ANY round is
90% of the battle, but if having some kind of "super ammo" gets
me that extra 1 or 2 percent, I will go for it. Maybe 1 or 2 percent
is all I need to make the difference.

Mostly I just hope I never have to find out.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

We were at a Q&A session a couple weeks ago with a deputy district attorney, part of the CCW training here, to learn about the legalities of self defense.

Anyway, the deputy, Steve Fieldman, has been with the DA's office for over 20 years, and investigated a lot of crimes, so he does have some experience in these matters.

He said: "No matter what you've seen on TV or in the movies, the person shot does NOT fly backwards or even stop at the shot, even with a shotgun. If someone is charging you from 20 feet away, and you shoot him three times with your .45, he will still be coming at you. He may be dead at the first shot, but his momentum will continue carrying him toward you, and he will still have a few seconds of life left to do you great harm."

So I think the myth of the one shot stop is just that, a myth.

 

[1 old 0311]

Hi Sig,

My Hydra-Shoks are 2 1/2 times the cost of White Box. Glasers or Mag Safe is like 6 times the cost. Maybe we just need to get more accurate and shoot more.

Kevin

 

[mete]

The rule is - always shoot and continue to shoot until the BG is no longer a threat !! The 'one shot stop' percentage is a mathematical excercise not a tactical proceedure !!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Does anyone, or would anyone, shoot in a defensive situation and only fire one round?

I think the one shot stop concept (and the data purporting to support it) is bogus.

That said, there's a big difference between firing many rounds and getting many hits. Expect a 90% performance degradation under real stress. Double, triple, and quadruple tap all you want -- but one hit may be all you get.

 

[Txsnake]

A robbery at a Dallas Pizza store about 20 years ago told me all I needed to know about the "one shot stop". The perp was robbing the manager with a shotgun leveled at his chest across the counter. One thing lead to another and the weapon discharged hitting the manager in the center of the chest at less than 2 feet, destroyed the man's heart. The manager ran into his office and phoned police. He expired in the chair with the phone in his hand.

Shoot until the threat ends. And when you testify, remember, you shot to "stop" the threat and nothing else.

 

[Sunray]

"...The 'one shot stop'..." Is a myth. No handgun round gives 100% reliable stops with any number of shots.

 

[Tokugawa]

You want a one shot stop- use a flamethrower.

 

[MM]

Or a blooper w/ canister...
SatCong

 

[Jamie C.]

Until somebody comes up with a round that stops all electromagnetic activity within the human nervous system instantly, even with a near-miss, it's always going to come down to luck.

Either that, or a disintegrator gun, like Marvin the Martian's, from the old WB cartoons.

Until then, all we can do is shoot straight, and keep shooting until the trouble-maker falls down and quits twitching...


J.C.

 

[jashobeam]

Great thread!

I am so glad to hear everyone (so far) doubting the validity of the 'one shot stop'.

Not long ago there was a thread about which firearm would be the best home defense weapon for an untrained person, a .357 Magnum revolver or a 9mm Glock. What people mostly wanted to discuss was reliability (revolvers are more reliable than automatics or vice versa). After reading 2+ pages of this back and forth arguing, I asked in post #57 which firearm could be most easily fired multiple times by an untrained person (BTW, I think that if a weapon is purchased with the intention that a particular person might use that gun for self-defense, then said person should have a basic understanding of how the gun functions and fires). Apparently, no one thought much of my follow-up shot argument because no one bothered to comment on it. I was a little disappointed by this lack of response because I really thought I had a valid point to contribute. I hope no one minds that I quote myself here. If you do mind, go ahead and skip it. For those who are so inclined to read it, what do you think of my reasoning and of the questions I posed?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=1944158#post1944158

What about ease or difficulty of rapidly firing multiple rounds?

Since many of these posts have focused on untrained (or undertrained) individuals, which type of firearm could such a person use best in an actual home defense situation--IF a malfunction did NOT occur? I am, for the sake of argument, going to eliminate malfunction as a point of concern and examine another potentially important issue. Remember that we are talking about an unskilled person shooting at an intruder, most likely in a darkened house. The intruder is believed to pose a life/bodily-harm threat; this threat must be eliminated. In such a mission, where failure may cost us our lives, who among us at THR would shoot one shot in the dark at a shadowy figure that we believe means to harms us or our families? Am I the only one who imagines my opening salvo consisting of a three shot burst? It's dark. I can't see if he's got a gun pointed at me. I'm not going to shoot once and wait to see what happens next. I'm not talking about shooting someone for trying to steal my TV. If I'm shooting someone, it's because I am convinced he's coming to get me or my loved ones. I'm gonna shoot him until he falls, and then probably shoot a couple more as guarantors.

Even for skilled persons--which, remember, we are not talking about--which is easier to bring back on target for an immediate follow-up shot, a 9mm auto or a .357 Magnum revolver? Which is easier to fire rapidly while remaining on target?

Before someone comes along and posts that one shot is all that is needed from a .357 Magnum, I will again recall our attention to the fact that the shooter in question is untrained (unprepared). Someone with little shooting experience will have serious doubts about being able to hit an inteded target, especially in a life threatening situation. Would such a person, totally lacking in confidence, really want to rely on a single shot (after which he/she would be deaf and blinded by muzzle flash)? Can someone lacking practice rapidly fire a .357 Magnum?

I fully appreciate all of the posts about jams and malfunctions. It has not been my intention to minimize that issue, but only to examine a different issue. Some failures are not the fault of the gun, but of the bullet (bad primers). Everyone who chooses to arm himself with a gun should become well-acquainted with the functioning of that gun. It would be tragic if someone armed with the means to protect himself died because he couldn't figure out what to do when his gun misfired. BTW, I have a Glock 17

 

[Double Naught Spy]

"...The 'one shot stop'..." Is a myth. No handgun round gives 100% reliable stops with any number of shots.

The "one shot stop" is not a myth. It does happen. Since it does happen, I think some of y'all may be confusing the differences between whether or not one shot stops can happen and the perceived extrapolation that if you use X brand ammo reported to have a one shop stop *%, that one can expect the same percentage outcome if one uses the same ammo.

Plus, nobody involved in putting together one shot stop data has ever claimed than any round gives 100% reliable stops. It is correct that no handgun round gives 100/% reliable stops with any number of shots, but it is also correct that no rifle does either, or grenade, missile, bomb, etc.

I think some of y'all are confusing issues. It is not that one shot stops are a myth

Larry, your deputy's statement is in error even though he has 20 years of experience and knows about such matters.

He said: "No matter what you've seen on TV or in the movies, the person shot does NOT fly backwards or even stop at the shot, even with a shotgun. If someone is charging you from 20 feet away, and you shoot him three times with your .45, he will still be coming at you. He may be dead at the first shot, but his momentum will continue carrying him toward you, and he will still have a few seconds of life left to do you great harm."

If the bad guy charging you from 20 feet and you shoot him three times, if he is dead after the first shot, then his activity will cease and he will drop. His forward momentum will do nothing more than having him fall towards you. Note that the charging person's momentum, if dead, will not keep locomotor action in operation. In other words, if dead, he won't be running, walking, etc., no matter how much momentum he has.

You see, they deputy is confused about the differences between mortally wounded and actually being dead. Legally, death is defined as being brain dead where there is a complete and irreversible cessation of brain activity.

Expect a 90% performance degradation under real stress.

Vern, where did you come up with this expectation? Do you have a source or shot data?

 

[1911 guy]

Have an idea for one shot stops.

Maybe an engineer can help me design this and we'll go into business together. It's a handgun that fires six pound sledgehammers at four thousand feet per second. Anything less than that, I'm shooting again.

 

[ghost squire]

By my calculations that would have about 5 million footpounds of energy, possibly enough to vaporise all surrounding tissue until it runs out of tissue to vaporise. Unless it hits a limb in which case the limb will be promptly removed.

Now that is a one shot stop folks! When you shoot someone in the gut and their spine turns to base protein molecules.

 

[Kurush]

Article on statistical analysis of Marshall/Sanow one-shot-stop "data" proving it was faked:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs24.htm#Too Good To Be True

More on the faked data:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-statistical-analysis.htm

Yet more on the faked data:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm

Review by Martin Fackler of "Street Stoppers":
http://www.firearmstactical.com/streetstoppers.htm

"One-Shot Drops Surviving the Myth" FBI bulletin explaining how the "one shot stop" myth can endanger lives:
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2004/oct2004/oct04leb.htm#page_15

 

[1911 guy]

Marshal & Sanow

I go on another board occasionally and there's a fellow who is the definition of "keyboard Komando". Quotes these stats incessantly. Good to know he's as full of it as I thought.

Ghost Squire, you were able to do the energy work-up, how about some design work? 50/50, partner!

 

[valor1]

Maybe a .50 caliber Barrett rifle aimed at the head and shot pointblank will do a one shot stop. An 1890 cannon may even produce the desired result if shot at pointblank range.

 

[Lucky 7]

One-shot stops? With a pistol? Hell, will those poodleshooters we, the boys in green, use? Nope not gonna happen unless ya take valors advice!
Semper Fi!
-L7

 

[1 old 0311]

Sounds like everybody agrees that we should buy the cheap stuff and just practice more. Any ammo makers on here?

Kevin

 

[LeonCarr]

Fire til the Felon Falls.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[EddieCoyle]

Rule No. 5 - If you have to use your gun, keep firing until you hear a click.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Rule No. 5 - If you have to use your gun, keep firing until you hear a click.

Larry Word was the best tactician the US Army produced in my lifetime. He said,

1. Fire your first shot at the most dangerous target.

2. Every shot is your first shot.

3. Keep shooting as long as you have a target.

 

[JShirley]

jashobeam,

Some months ago, I had a protracted difference of opinion on this subject with friends on another board.

I essentially postulated something similar: instead of revolvers being "best for new shooters", semiautos are actually much easier to use. They hold more rounds, are much faster and easier to reload under stress, and are typically more controllable.

It was a long and dirty fight with no clear victor...

John

 

[ghost squire]

Ghost Squire, you were able to do the energy work-up, how about some design work? 50/50, partner!

Ok, I will design some sledgehammers, and you can build the pistol that fires them at 4,000 feet per second LOL!

Then we can sell them to the Vietnamese as a low recoil self defense pistol, and to big game hunters.

Jshirley, is there ever a clear victor in internet debates?