One up on the Whataburger thread, WWYD?

If five armed gunmen entered a restaurant where I was eating, I would probably:

  • Do nothing and allow myself to be tied up, because it would be silly to shoot it out against five me

    Votes: 3 3.8%
  • Would jump up and shoot all of them (or at least I would try)

    Votes: 15 18.8%
  • I would try to hide from the gunmen and dial 911, but if discovered, I would submit to them

    Votes: 1 1.3%
  • I would hide, and only shoot if they came after me or my significant other

    Votes: 48 60.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 13 16.3%

  • Total voters
    80
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After reading the Whataburger thread, I figured I would post this situation, which recently happenned at one of my favorite local restaurants.

Here is the article from a local newspaper:

12/10/2003 By Scott Nicholson

Police are looking for leads in an armed robbery that occurred Friday night at a local restaurant.

According to the Boone Police Department, five armed Hispanic males entered Los Arcoiris Mexican Restaurant at 1934 Blowing Rock Road just before 11 p.m. just as the restaurant was closing and employees were cleaning up for the night. The armed men ordered the six employees to lie on the floor at gunpoint and then tied their hands.

The suspects then robbed the employees and the restaurant’s cash register of an undisclosed amount of money.

They may have fled the scene in a dark-colored sport utility vehicle. One of the suspects allegedly visited the restaurant before the robbery and purchased a phone card, then later returned with the other four suspects.

....

Now pretend you are finishing up your meal with your friend/wife, etc. when you see five armed men come through the door. You, of course, are armed.

What do you do?

Would you let them tie you up, or would you fight back?

Oh, I should note that the restaurant is more or less divided into simple partitions with table-level windows, so you can see the gunmen from your table, but if you drop to the floor, you will be out of sight (until they come looking for you anyway).


This is what I would (try to) do:

After spotting the gunmen, I would drop the the ground and pull my girlfriend down with me, and I would retreat into a corner, stuffing my girlfriend under a booth. I would draw my weapon, but would make no attempt to stop the robbery or to protect the restaurant employees as my primary responsibility is the safety of my girlfriend and a 'heroic' attempt to thwart the robbery would likely end up in dead restaurant employees.

Because we are behind a partition, the bad guys would have to move across the restaurant in order to find us. As soon as I saw one enter into my field of vision, I would shoot him.

At this point, the remaining robbers would hopefully panic and run away. But if this didn't happen, I would remain in my corner of the restaurant, and would attempt to shoot any threat that presents itself to me. I think this would give me my best chance of escaping unscathed (Aside from possibly submitting to the robbers).

I have been thinking about this a lot, because I eat at this restaurant probably at least once a week, and we are usually there at closing time, so I could very easily have been caught in this situation.

Now I carry an extra magazine on my person, and I am rethining whether I should carry in establishments where alcohol is served, regardless of the law.

I do not want to stop eating at this establishment because I think it is wrong to drive the victims of a violent crime out of business simply they were victimized.
 
If my badge and ID were to be found on me by robbers, I would be dead on the spot. My answer would be very similar to the above, with calling 911 on cell, and my wife and friends all happen to be armed 24/7 as well. Bangers don't practice shooting - they practice impressing the girls, as I can attest after running both indoor and outdoor ranges for 2 years, but my wife and I practice hitting the target, in both static and dynamic ranges.
I bet we win, if need be. Oh, both of us carry spare mags, as well, as does every single one of my friends I hang out with, including one paranoid who carried 8 spares for his 1911A1.:eek:
 
Difficult to answer without being there. If I felt there was a good chance they might open fire on us, I would look for cover (I am still pretty quick), jump to it and probably open fire myself if I felt they were still threatening- hoping they would retreat or otherwise stop any aggressive behavior before I was either incapacitated or out of ammo.

I am really good at "reading people". I would make a "gut call" on how I felt and go for it. - Either way.

I'd MUCH rather go down firing than just give up and be executed. I really wouldn't know until it happens though.

Hope it never happens - but then that's why I carry.

Logistar
 
hopefully the GF and I would both be armed, and not hesitant under life-and-death conditions.

I like 2 vs 5 allot better than 1 vs 5.

But I don't relish either one.

Outgunned, and outnumbered, I'd retreat and regroup.


Also, if 5 mexicans come into a resturant armed and intent on doing some damage, I'd hope my SA skills would be good enough to be halfway to the door covering my gal's position 3 steps infront of me.


Besides, when I made it to the trunk of my car, those thugs would be in for a world of hurt. Oh wait, they wouldn't, because I can't get an AR-15 in californiastan.
 
My wife and I both carry weapons with hi-cap Mags and carry a couple extra mags as well. My wife has 61(4 hi-cap) rounds on her and I have 53(4 hi-cap 13 rounders) rds on me. But 5 vs. 2 is a hard call. But if threatened and confronted I beleive our odds of "cleaning house" are better then average. Once outside and in my truck, since I always drive, calling 9-1-1 would be next. Any pursuers would be met with a volly of .308 from my H&K G3. And yes I keep my H&K G3 in my truck 24/7.
 
5 on 1 . . . ugh.

There have been too many instances of people submitting and being murdered . . . here in the Austin, TX, area, people still remember the "Yogurt Shop Murders" of 8 or 9 years ago.

Some variation of the first post - hide, and shoot if necessary - would probably be the "least bad" choice . . . there are no "good" choices.
 
1 vs. 5 is still better odds than a bullet in the back of the head in the walk-in cooler.


I'd take my chance that when you touched off your first shot the 5 would break and run...ideally leaving the intended recipient of said first shot behind for ID purposes.

Regards,
Rabbit.
 
Devils advocate on the retreat option...

I hope you folks will entertain some questions from a junior member, but this thread has made me do some thinking.

It occurs to me that when I think about a scenario like this the elements of the situation are always optimal for my preferred strategy. In this case, I'd do the retreat and await events strategy. But what are the assumptions inherent in this:

1. The BGs don't notice. In my mental picture I'm always far away from them. They are at the cashier, all looking in the same direction (not at me).

2. I'm probably alone. Otherwise, I have to convey the threat to the people with me and get them to follow my lead without being noticed.

3. There is cover available within a distance that I can reach without being noticed.

4. If SHTF, there are no screaming women, kids, etc between me and the gunmen. There's no armed man with a hostage walking toward me.

So in my rehearsed scenario, I'm hunkered down in a safe place and the BGs either take the money and leave or fall to my extremely accurate shot placement.

Then I remember a recent real situation.

1. I was out was at a small neighborhood pizza joint.
2. Only table left was within 5 feet of cashier.
3. My fellow diners were two non-CCW, non-SA women.
4. Interior brightly lit, outside dark. No way to see someone until they entered (also within 10 feet of me).

That's about as different from my rehearsed scenario as I can imagine. Maybe I need to do some rethinking and behavior modification.

Anyway, just food for thought.
 
Fight or Flight

Keeping in mind that no plan ever survived intact its first contact with the enemy, I would be loking at the distance of the nearest exit vs. the afore mentioned corner. If the door looks even remotely do-able, 1st shot is (assuming they're that organized) for the guy covering the door (if the stick-up guys have any sense, this is the one most likely to be armed with a shotgun). I'd be betting that the ensuing chaos of exiting employees and any customers would add a useful bit of confusion to the process getting the F*** out of there.

Anyone holding up a restaurant has got to be at least medium-stupid, and that being the case my assumption would be that tied-up would be a more than even chance to = dead (immediate execution or slow death of hypothermia in the walk-in).

All testosterone aside, I'd prefer to take my chances against the remaining several cretins, who I'll bet you a box of doughnuts spend less time on the range (or doing any other remotely useful training) than I do.
 
Violent aggressive actions by a small force has often been known to send a larger, better armed force running (i.e. Roger's Rangers, San Jacinto, Rough Riders).

My plan would be to get my wife to cover, & then engage the five threats w/ as much surprise & force as I could muster while moving AWAY from my wife & others. If the threats fold up & retreat, great. If not, I hope my aim is sure & quick...

Never surrender....:fire:
 
You must never submit to disarmament or being tied up.

The odds might suck bigtime, but all too often, the disarm/restraint play is an incremental con game, and if you take the sucker's bet of surrendering your ability to act, and you're betting on the decency of people who are in the the very act of demonstrating that they don't have any.



Strategic Priorities:

Self & Family survival
Innocent bystander survival

Tactical Priorities:

Do not attract attention.
360 threat scan, check for accomplices behind me.
Obtain cover/concealment for self and family
Obtain firing grip, inconspicuously draw, weapon, keep out of sight.
If possible, separate self from family.
Dial 911, mute speaker...

Priorities If BG initiate shooting:
Use chaos as opportunity to evacuate family


Engage BGs if:

-An armed bg tries to flank me.
-I am about to become an object of BG attention/inspection
-They're indicate they're interesting in anything more than grabbing cash and running out...(eg mayhem, hostage taking, etc)
 
I agree with Geek and others. Let the situation dictate your response, but never disarm or allow yourself to be bound.

I agree with you, Sylvilagus when you say you think the other BGs will bolt when the SHTF. They may not outright flee, but if you can regain the initiative and the element of surprise you might cause them to panic. IMO guys in these situations are not expecting their intended victims to fight back, and sure as hell aren't going to know what to do when the lead starts flying.
 
Would you let them tie you up, or would you fight back?

I have a friend who was in a somewhat similar situation several years ago. He submitted to being tied in hopes that they'd be subjected to a simple robbery only, but ended up helplessly watching as his girlfriend was raped and tortured.

I was taught that you never surrender your weapon, and that you never allow an assailent to take you anywhere. By my reasoning, that same belief extends to not allowing yourself to be rendered helpless. Greg's response sounds pretty much on track to me.
 
No good options.

This question bugs me, because it's not an unreasonable situation. It can happen, it does happen, and the BG's intentions are different in every case.

To bring a little humor to the discussion (that's allowed, right?): Immediately before firing upon the closest BG, but while drawing I'd shout out, "Say hello to my little friend!"... then commence firing.

On a more serious note, what about using overturned tables as concealment? If it's actually thick enough it might stop some pistol rounds... although a good solid wood table should stop buckshot, right? Makes a rucus when you turn it over though and only providers concealment/cover from one direction.

How about "chair through window and run like mad?"
 
5 armed assailents? That would suck. I think the best option would be to get the drop on them by drawing and shooting after you find a suitable firing position. Watch and wait, shoot them from behind if possible. This is assuming of course that I'm carrying a full sized 9mm like a BHP and a spare 13 rounder, (or a 92FS) which I usually don't do.

With 13 rounds of .32ACP (spare mag included) out of a pocket gun this would probably be a very risky proposition. I might even try to get close and pretend like I was handing them my wallet, pull out CCW real quick and pop them in the head while trying not to get shot myself.

I'd like to upgrade to a pocket 9mm when funds allow it.

Of course another option may be breaking a window and getting out of there. But then you'll make alot of noise and may ruin your chances at surprise if you fail to do so quickly. And you may have to turn your back to the 5 yahoos bum rushing through the front door.
 
If you have the slightest chance of getting your gun out and hitting the bad people, you need to take it. The situation would dictate the specifics, but almost any course of action would be better than letting yourself get tied up and murdered at their convenience (to get rid of the witnesses).
 
I can see the newspaper headlines right now:

"Vigilante Guns Down 5 Robbers Execution Style." :rolleyes:

or: "Vigilante Dies In Gun Battle With Restaurant Robbers, 4 Employees Killed In Crossfire." :uhoh:
 
"Anyone holding up a restaurant has got to be at least medium-stupid, and that being the case my assumption would be that tied-up would be a more than even chance to = dead (immediate execution or slow death of hypothermia in the walk-in)."

Actually, holding up a restaurant may not be medium stupid. More and more convenience/liquor store operators/owners have guns or other weapons and have taken measures to make a robbery painful or futile. Anyone one who has watched crime TV and seen some of the encounters between shop owners and the BGs can understand what I am saying.

What have restaurants done? Why little of course since they don't want to present the image of an armed camp or institution, the sheeple might be offended and not come. Given the cost of eating out, the potential take from the till might be a lot better and if you take the time to rob the patrons, you really might get lucky.

I am all for going to ground (if getting out unseen isn't possible) and waiting for the situation to end (BG's get money and leave) or for it to get worse. My spouse will be on the phone to the police and watching the other direction. If they think that they are going to herd me anywhere, then there is going to be alot of noise immediately and given the possibility that they are going to spread out to do the herding, it isn't an immediate 5 on 1 but maybe 2 on 1 or 1 on 1.

Those are a little better odds, and once the shooting starts, the rest may go into bug out mode and make for the exit.

Thier actions (BG) will determine what I do in response .

I will not start the ball rolling, but I am prepared to throw it back to them:neener:
 
I don't know, the take from the register split five ways kinda seems like a waste of time. I would say more that they are probably "complete stupid".
 
"I don't know, the take from the register split five ways kinda seems like a waste of time. I would say more that they are probably "complete stupid"

Criminals are not totally stupid and they talk to each other and watch television and read the papers like all the rest of us (well maybe most of us) and if they are finding that robbing the Liquor/convenience store is getting dangerous, with more and more owners/employee's having guns or stores that have a limited cash on hand policy or security booth for the employee, they are going to look for places that don't present that kind of immediate threat or because of the measures taken be a waste of time to take down.

They are going to look for places that are easier and ones that present a lower threat level, as pointed out previously. So, where is an easier place to hit? Major stores, now have added a lot of security, theft prevention techniques and in some cases armed store detectives. Banks? Getting harder to take down all the time and police response will be fast and large. So that leaves those places that are not generally thought to be targets for armed robbery.

We may think the risks and returns to be stupid, but then we aren't criminals, are we. We cannot apply our thought process and values on to the criminal, because it isn't the way they think and they don't have our values.
 
Since it's likely that the goblins would flee rather than stand and shoot it out, this might be a suitable situation for a warning shot.

Get yourself to cover, yell, "Get out of here!" and put a round into the ceiling.

I don't normally advocate warning shots, but if you have a safe place to put a round and you think it would cause the bad guys to leave, would you consider it? In this situation - closing time, few people around...

I dunno.
 
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