Forget #$%* Whataburger, WHAT WOULD YOU DO HERE?

[Min]

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2309479

Dec. 19, 2003, 8:39PM

Robbers merciless in restaurant heists
Police say number of victim assaults increasing rapidly

By PEGGY O'HARE
Copyright 2003 Houston Chronicle



A group of masked robbers terrorizing north Houston taquerias are merciless in their quests for cash, police investigators said Friday.

Armed with shotguns, pistols and knives, the robbers have beaten, shot at and stabbed even cooperative victims. Since Oct. 30, the group has stormed nine taquerias and a Denny's restaurant. The number of attacks is escalating, Houston police say, with seven such heists occurring in the past two weeks.

"They are being very brutal," said investigator Roger Chappell. "They are injuring people inside these restaurants. Whether (the victims) are complying or not makes no difference. Unfortunately, we haven't had a lot of witnesses stay around that could give us information."

Police are advising restaurant operators to keep surveillance cameras in good condition and to be cautious of anyone lurking outside, especially groups of people in a car.

Three people were taken to the hospital after the latest heist early Friday at a Denny's in the 7700 block of Veterans Memorial. Three men and a woman burst into the restaurant at about 3 a.m., wearing ski masks or hoods, Chappell said. After demanding wallets and money from customers and employees, the robbers shot at a man's vehicle pulling up as they left.

In most cases, one of the robbers posed as a customer, asking for directions or to use a bathroom or phone, Chappell said. The robber usually left, then returned with accomplices.

Seven of the holdups escalated into assaults, even when victims fully cooperated.

"It looks to us like (victims) are doing what they're required to do ... but they're still being beaten with the weapons. In one incident, we had two who were stabbed," Chappell said.

The heists are not believed to be related to a recent robbery at a Whataburger restaurant in southwest Houston, Chappell said.

The suspects are described as three black men and a black woman, all between 19 and 25 years old. The robber depicted in a composite sketch released Friday has a teardrop tattoo under one eye and is smaller than his accomplices, standing 5 feet 6 inches to 5 feet 8 inches tall and weighing 140 to 160 pounds. The other men are 5 feet 11 inches to 6 feet 2 inches tall and weigh 190 to 210 pounds.

I'm definately switching out my CCW from a SW 642 to a hicap semi-auto.

Let's hear your serious replies to this situation.

 

[armoredman]

For the few that don't know, the teardrop tat is a gang tat, one indicating serious injury or death, depenind on whther filled in or an outline, done on gang orders.
Shoot, shoot fast, shoot straight. they won't be expecting it, as they have had nothing but sheeple to contend with so far, and will likely panic. Criminals are cowards....
Carry spare ammo, and practice mag changes - even better, a New York reload - BUG.

 

[Langenator]

Are these places that are being hit fast food type places where you can sit where you want? If you're eating at a place like that, sit as far away from the doors and counter as possible, and make sure you can see same-SA saves lives.

Of course, best tactic is to avoid the kind of places that are being hit altogether. It was mentioned in another thread that fast food places, and I'll include Denny's, do most of their business in cash. So eat at Outback, or Red Lobster, or Olive Garden, or some other place that is going to do a lot of credit card business-lower threat. Or use the drive through for fast food. Or just eat at home.

 

[Ankeny]

I would avoid fast food joints like the plague. Prevailing against four armed bad guys would be tough. Like you, I would also pack a little more fire power. Think of it as upgrading your insurance policy.

 

[TarpleyG]

Well, in Texas, you are well within the guidlines of the law to walk around with a loaded 12 ga. That might two effects though. Either the BGs see you and about face or the sheeple see you and think you are the BG.

GT

 

[TechBrute]

So basically you are no longer guaranteed safety by complying with the BGs. This makes my decisions sooooo much easier. If only the people on 9/11 had known what complying would lead them to...

 

[garrettwc]

So basically you are no longer guaranteed safety by complying with the BGs.

You never really were guaranteed. It's just becoming more obvious to everyone.

 

[Sharpie1]

If I am in a restaurant, and someone comes in and starts getting wallets and purses from people, said person or persons will be shot on the spot.

This is the best way to guarantee that:

1. They will not kill or hurt me or anyone else

2. They will not get my wallet

3. They won't terrorize anyone else ever again

This doesn't happen much in Virginia - and when it does, at least half the time (that I hear of anyway), the assailant is shot by an armed citizen.

TD

 

[clubsoda22]

They are violent. The second they show intent of causing harm to anything more than the restaruant owners income, they get put down.

I'm definately switching out my CCW from a SW 642 to a hicap semi-auto.

Probably a good idea. I don't have anything suitable for carry besides my bersa thunder .380. A perfectly adaquate gun for about 3-4 guys with my shooting skills and a couple reloads at my side, especially if i got the jump on them. I recently did 10 yard moving fire with this gun engaging three shillouettes at 10 yards while strafing. I put all shots in the kill zone of each target in three seconds total.

Both my my fullsize HK USP in the Fobus Rotoholster and 2 reloads as well as the taurus PT92 in the G-code holster with 2 reloads are bit tough to conceal.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Langenator, funny you suggest sitting as far from doors as possible. Some so-called 'experts' suggest just the opposite as the closer you are to a door is the closer you are to freedom in such an incident. Being away from the counter seems to be most ideal as then you are away from where the action usually takes place.

Places like Whataburger are difficult to call. They often have multiple customer entrances. The local ones have 2 or 3 each, depending on building design. One door is always near the counter, sometimes a second, and the last door is at the opposite end of the dining area, away from the counter.

TechBrute, you have never been guarenteed safety by obeying bad guys. Why do you think they are called bad guys? Just because they say they won't hurt you if you comply is not like a legally binding negotiated deal, although it sounds like it. As they are breaking the law, you know you can't trust them to behave in accord with negotiations.

Something to keep in mind, FBI stats (from Discovery Channel) indicate that about 13% of such events that go down result in intentional injury to complying victims and/or witnesses, sometimes where the perps leave and then immediately re-enter and then beat, stab, or shoot who is immediately available. As such, who was previously a witness then can become a victim.

 

[TechBrute]

I know you were never assured that, but you used to be able to reasonably expect it. You know... sit in your plane seat quietly, and once these people get to brazil, we can all go back home. The expectation isn't even there any more. I was never into that in the first place, but for a lot of people, it was their plan A. Ok, so it's probably still those people's plan A.

 

[Langenator]

My thinking on staying away from the doors: doors are where they come in, and doors are where they are going to go out-and probably the most dangerous place to be is between the BGs and their escape route.

Actually, sitting by a door that goes somewhere other than the parking lot is probably your best bet-most BGs will come and go by car.

 

[Min]

My thinking on staying away from the doors: doors are where they come in, and doors are where they are going to go out

If you have a CCW, and you do your part, they won't be going out, will they? (At least not vertically)

 

[Langenator]

If you have a CCW, and you do your part, they won't be going out, will they? (At least not vertically)

Whether I have CCW or not, my only job is to keep myself and my family from being hurt or killed. I have no obligation to the restaurant, or, legally, to any other patrons. Does that mean if the BGs start smacking folks around that I'm not going to pull my gun? No, but not because of any obligation to those people, but because I figure that sooner or later they're going to get around to me and my family. Better to take action sooner rather than later.

And I'm still going to try to stay away from their escape route, because if they care about getting away, and unless they are there simply to slaughter everyone in the place they do, they are going to keep an eye on the way out. That makes it a little harder to get the drop on them.

 

[Rogelio]

Now this is me, but:

Whenever I eat out, I am with my girlfriend... I carry a Glock 25 (16 rounds in gun, 15 in spare mag) and she carries around a Glock 28 (11 in gun, 10 in spare mag) so it adds up to 27 shots before we have to reload...now that stands for (in the best scenario) that every BG gets about 6-7 bullets in their COM before we have to reaload....ok, .380 acp is not a great caliber, but 6-7 shots WILL take anyone down. If not, 52 shots will do!!!

If by any means you had to go eat there (let´s assume you are out of food or anything) try to locate a spot where you would have a good aim to the counter (as at least one BG will be there demanding cash) and also to the doors. This way you can take out the BG at the counter and also be aware of any BG who is waiting inside the getaway car just in case he decides to help his buddies in the gunfight.

Maybe a tactical toy could be of some use here ( I carry a homemade flashbang as a keyring, it is very simple, is loud enough to make you deaf,is the size of a film canister -it is actually built INSIDE one-) and it might be thrown to the other side of the restaurant to draw the BGs attention away from you as you shoot. (¿Would Skunk like this toy?)

Carry hi-cap mags, reloads and STAY AWAY FROM THOSE PLACES AS MUCH AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN!!!

P.S: I am not sure if the mods would allow me to post instructions for the flashbang, but here is a link :

http://www.iespana.es/matadoresairsoftclub/granada.htm

I don´t know about the U.S laws but here it is completely legal to manufacture and to modify the firecracker (check the pyro section of www.xinventions.com for some good info on how to make your very good, loud and dependable firecracker). For mine, I use gunpowder from shotgun shells. It is WAY loud when in the device. If any of you would like a translation from the website, just send me some pm.

Be safe

 

[G-Raptor]

Kinda takes the glow off of "being a good witness", doesn't it?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Well, if you are not by a door, then likely you are trapped. I personally don't see being trapped as a good thing.

Of course, it is all situational. In a Whataburger with 2-3 entrances, like McDonalds and some other food places, chances are the bad guys will not use the doors furthest from the many source of money, the counter. Of course, there is no assurance that the bad guys will plan that well, but some can get the fundamentals down.

Being near an exit is good for reasons other than just bad guys, but also in case of other problems such as fire.

A door is an option, nothing more. Sure enough, bad guys may use it. So maybe you should not park in the parking lot as they may park there as well?

 

[clubsoda22]

.380 acp is not a great caliber, but 6-7 shots WILL take anyone down

It takes a lot less than that. I don't know what the laws in your country are as far as hollowpoints go, but winchester ranger talon .380 is nasty stuff. Corbon .380 also makes a mess. The winchester penetrates 8" in gelatin expanding to over a half inch, which is very good for .380. I don't feel undergunned with my bersa, which only carries 7+1.

If i was feeling particularly threatened, i'd probably want a bigger capacity and bullet though. Something small in 9mm, with 12 or so shots.

 

[Rogelio]

Absolutely no hollowpoints (except for rimfire), and .380 acp is the biggest pistol caliber allowed, as well as .38 spl for a revolver. Recently, .38 SA is legal, I bought a very nice Tanfoglio chambered for it, but ammo is rare and expensive, so it is not very easy to practice with it.

Just FMJ for me...

 

[clubsoda22]

That sucks, good thing you can have high caps then, huh? can't file crosses in your FMJ bullets either i bet?

 

[Rogelio]

Never thought about crosses, but I dremel down the nose of the first FMJ to get an exposed lead...maybe a Flat nosed hollow point?? Will try the cross stuff....need to get some water bottles!!!

 

[clubsoda22]

Now, i don't recommend doing anything that would get you in trouble.

Putting crosses in FMJ bullets is an old trick that a lot of people have used. It's not exactly an approved practice. Not as good as a hollowpoint, but certainly an uglier wound than ball ammo.

 

[Kenneth Lew]

Well, in Texas, you are well within the guidlines of the law to walk around with a loaded 12 ga. That might two effects though. Either the BGs see you and about face or the sheeple see you and think you are the BG.

That will get you charged with distrubing the peace or shot by a police officer.

 

[tommytrauma]

clubsoda22 wrote;

I don't have anything suitable for carry besides my bersa thunder .380. A perfectly adaquate gun for about 3-4 guys with my shooting skills and a couple reloads at my side, especially if i got the jump on them.

I'm just not sure what to say here.
CS, carrying a .380 (once you're old enough to get a permit) will not equip you to take on 3 or 4 armed assailents. Such things are considered only in fantasies and moments of desperation. After reading some of your other posts, I'm surprised to hear you say such a thing.

 

[clubsoda22]

Tommy, i meant to say enough ammo. I wouldn't think of engaging them with one magazine. 8 shots before a reload isn't much with a .380. 3 mags = 22 shots. Enough for 3-4, albeit not at the same time. I'd be hesitant to take on 4 at the same time with a 1911, simple because one missed shot and you'd be outta luck. What i was trying to illustrate with that was that with enogh shots of .380 you wouldn't have to worry. Although i'd prefer to be in rogelio's position with 15per mag.

That was my line of thought, although I worded it badly. (my writing skills go downhill at 4:50am and random thoughts get posted in random order)

Don't worry, i'm not a moron.

If it came to having to use deadly force against 4 armed assailants with the bersa, it would definately take some divine intervention and a couple good headshots. Let's just say i wouldn't be happy about the situation and might even conider diving through a window rather than engaging.

Before i get my permit i'm probably gonna find a compact 9 or 40 for times when deep cover isn't neccecary.