A nearby Whataburger robbery tonight...WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF YOU WERE THERE?

[Shootin' Buddy]

I'm surprised no one else has espoused my personal favorite. My plan is fairly simple. The instant I see trouble, I RUN. I happen to know from experiments with my PACT timer that I can get through a fire door 20 feet away faster than I can draw from concealment and fire an effective kill shot on a slow moving target 20 feet away.

The advantages are

1) I don't lie around wondering if my last moments on this earth will be spent kissing a dirty floor.

2) I don't risk injuring innocent by standers either by my own shots or by the reflexive dying shots of a perpetrator.

3) I don't even have to, if I don't want to, stand around for hours afterward giving reports to the authorities.

So, in short, if I'd had my wits about me like I train to do, like I try to do, when the gun wielding gumbo came in the side door I'd be moving for the front door.

Will this tactic always work in every situation? Nope. I might have friends or kids with me. There might not be an available exit. But I consider it to be the safest and most effective option whenever it is available.

Don

 

[Dog]

TheeBadOne, said:

Hold the horses there. What if you're in a right to carry state? CCW allows open carry there. Just gun him down?

I guess I assumes to much. I assumed that this resteraunt is in a city or residential area or neighbor hood. And I assumed that the bad guys didn't have holsters with a gun straped to there hip. My comment was based on these assumptions(sp?). I don't think an honest citizen is going to walk into any public place holding a shot gun in hand. Thats why I never mentioned the guy with the pistol because if it was in the waste band or holster you wouldn't see it till they were already inside the establishment.

It is a what if, if I am in a resteraunat, I am watching the doors and the parking lot, usually watching my vehicle and scanning the whole area if possible.

 

[Martin2]

Very informative thread this.

We probably all work on our own tactical range exercises but real life runthroughs are normally only shared amongst the fuzz or the fed's.

As we are currently experiencing an upsurge in this kinda gag here in SA, (Guess the re run's of Pulp fiction are doing the rounds again), more and more "whataburgers", bars and diners are getting hit these days. The perps of course share a double take with the clients cash, cellphones, cards and the till.

Trouble is, at any time during the gag, something could "apparently" go wrong for the BG's, someone walks in, someone looks at them too hard, or maybe they just need to score "bonus points" amongst themselves that day.

I'd also go for the first break given, in this case the moment S/G man walked in the door, he musta been carying openly just B4 he entered and I ALWAYS have my eye on the door. These days you can't afford not to.

Generally here though, we normally get four or more at a time, take one out and the rest run the moment it hits the fan.

A backshot will get you up on murder for sure, being turned away from you negates the direct threat to you but you can always say you observed a threat to another customer.

The "Wishers" line was brilliant, "what's a whataburger?" Ha Ha Ha, thanks for the best laugh I've had this month.

Tell me though, we currently have "Walker, Texas Ranger" running here, (series looks about five years old), is Norris doing any current stuff we can look forward to in the future?

"Go in peace but with a piece"

Citizen on Patrol. (Aren't we all?)

 

[artherd]

Well, this situation is completely ????ed. (aren't most?)

I agree that you have to assume that every BG is hoped up on PCP and is ex-SOCOMM of some sort. If they're not, then bonous, but don't bet on it.




It takes me around 1 full second to draw from my shoulder and take a bead on a 'point blank' type target. (ie 15feet.)

That's a long time. Enough for a half-decent shot to pump THREE rounds of 00Buck.



Really, I'd have to read the situation, and react as best as I could.


I would likely lean towards avoiding confrontation, especially if the robbers were docile. However, I would NOT be forced to the floor. I'll try 2:1 odds first.

What I would like is a pretty clear indicator they are here to do harm or pose a threat, and time to draw, take a good bead on ShotGun's head, preferably from behind or to the side at least, and watch my background for the followup shot(s) to PistolPeat.


Of course assuming all of this were possible.

 

[Cosmoline]

Actually, running sounds like a good idea, assuming they have only short guns. Run to your truck, get your rifle. End of problem.

 

[Ankeny]

What do you do with the rifle? Hold the bad guys at bay in the burger joint and turn it into a big hostage situation or shoot them when they come out and get clear of the crowd?

 

[Erik]

"As far as shooting them in the back, that is ILLEGAL."

No, it is not.

Means, opportunity, and intent has little to do with which direction someone has to be facing in a group setting.

What has a lot to do with being charged and prosecuted or not is your ability to articulate your actions.

 

[artherd]

Ankeny- honestly, probally nothing assuming I got clear withought the BGs noticing at all. I would just try to get into a position where I could cover and escape all detection, and call the cops. Keep in mind I've never seen the place either.

If they moved to execute or do any kind of mortal harm to anybody, I would do my best to take them out if I had a clean shot however.

At 75+yds with a rifle, I like my chances versus a guy with a pistol and shotgun a LOT better than inside!

Now, if I was unable to escape undetected, and if I could get to it in time, I would try to take out both offenders coming after me while I still have an advantage in range.

 

[Shweboner]

I think you would run into legal problems if you began sniping them from the parkinglot.

Im no legal expert but that one would be harder to defend in court.
Not that Im saying youre wrong or that I wouldnt do the same, I just think that the system would come down a little harder on you for doing it.

~Brian

 

[Ankeny]

artherd:

I would do the same. I can tell you for a fact, if you sniped a bad guy who was in the process of executing hostages here, the county attorney would give you a medal.

 

[byedan1]

well lets see they (bad guys) have guns pulled as i see that it is a treat to life so the have the ability they are in the middle of a crime that causes fear for my life or others and the want whell that would be hard to prove but i believe having guns drawn would make as if they wanted to inflict harm so in my state i could shot them to protect my life and the life of others we as ccw have a responsability to the public and they may even mean not getting involved in the situtation i would say it is a case by case deal. i guess i would have to be in the whataburger to make up my mind at the time

 

[dwestfall]

I don't know whether having a lightning draw would be necessary, although certainly not a bad thing. But there are too many people (and twice the hands) for two robbers to be watching. Being able to get your gun in hand smoothly without being noticed might be the goal, and that shouldn't be hard if you're seated at a table.

If you comply with an order to lie on the ground -- game over IMHO. You won't be able to keep track of the targets locations, your ability to draw and engage will be severely limited. You've handed the robbers every tactical advantage.

The point at which everybody is moving to lie down might be the best time to start shooting. Movement is expected and innocents are less likely to be hit should you miss.

Hopefully you'd be in or able to get to a position where the targets are lined up, but that would be pure luck and you're already starting off "in the red" in the luck dept.

 

[Treylis]

If somebody's just robbing the till/safe, not my money, not my problem. Keep it holstered. I'm not going to go alone against two guys, one of which is armed with a shotgun.

If it looks like my life or the life of another is in danger, though, things start to change real fast. I suppose it becomes strongly situational at that point. I don't want to die on my knees or face-down on the floor, but I also don't want to die when all they want to do is take some cash and run.

Of course, I sit in booths facing the entrances... a practice which I developed out of personal preference since I was a kid. If nothing else, it'll give me some time to evaluate the situation.

 

[mountainclmbr]

If they convince me that they are only after money, I would hold back. It would be a hard sell.

Otherwise, I would comply and go to the ground while looking for, and implementing the best tactics to take out the shotgun first and then the other.

 

[TamThompson]

Yes, Texas law allows you to use deadly force to defend a third party. It's a WHOLE 'nother issue whether or not this is a good idea in terms of practicality. Our CHL classes stress that you should use the utmost care in defending third parties, since many situations are not what they appear to be.

I agree with bits and pieces of what everyone else said. I am not willing to go through the huge trauma (to me) of killing someone and spending tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees to keep Whataburger from losing some cash.

However, if it were to turn into a Luby's Cafeteria type thing (in which the robbers systematically murdered patrons), I'd step in.

Therefore, since I always try to be aware of my surroundings (the aforementioned 'sitting facing the door'), I'd do this:

1. Hopefully see them when they came in. Just carrying a shotgun openly *is* legal in Texas, although discouraged in cities. If they looked like thugs and not like some clueless hunters who just happened to drive into the city, I'd put my strong hand near my gun and have my other hand ready to clear cover.

2. They start demanding money. Now I'm ready to draw. I would not draw my gun yet, since some idiot nearby might see me do it and yell something like 'She's got a gun!' or 'Shoot 'em!' I WOULD, however, dive down behind a table (seek cover), and act as if I were a scared little sheeple.

3. IF they move to shoot someone, or actually start shooting, then my Glock 30 comes out and I would try for a clear shot at taking them down, starting with the aforementioned Mr. Shottie (without winging bystanders, for which I could go to jail.) (I also carry a Keltec .32 as a back-up gun.)

4. I like the option to run to the fire door and fire (if necessary) from there, but I have a very bad knee and my running is severely compromised right now. I *can* run, but it's very, very slow, and not as stable as it used to be. So, I carry 2 guns and Spyderco's and pepper spray. Actually, that's an interesting thought, along the lines of "Beware the older man--a young man will kick your behind, but an old man will shoot you." If you think about it, the MOST DANGEROUS CHL's are those of us who are in some way disabled in such a way that we cannot carry out our primary duty of running away--we have to stand and fight. I realize 'running away' is not a literal term, but still, if your mobility is compromised...you're dangerous because you'll stand your ground.

My gun is for the defense of me, my family, my friends, and also possibly strangers who might need my help, but not for Whataburger's profits.

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

Ok, I wasn't going to put anything in here again, but since Tam bumped it, here goes.

I was going in my friendly local Whataburger last week here in N. Dallas with my wife a week or so ago; about 9:00 PM. There was a car near the front door, young guy hanging out near it. Car had all the lettering and decals that make it 100 mph faster; small pseudo hot import, flashy wheels and two flat tires on the same (passenger) side. Kept an eye on him as he was on his cell phone and not paying us any mind whatsoever. Inside the store were 3 teen girls who were dressed provocatively and were milling around the register and drink fountain. Placed my order and went to the front corner of the place, diagonally opposite of the main door where I could keep an eye on everything that was going on. The 3 girls came in and out of the store several times before their order was produced and would mill around on the sidewalk outside the door for no apparent reason than to keep moving. Male came in and went back out a couple of times, looked more put out about his tires than anything. Noone in this group ever sat down.

Yeah, my situational awareness was on orange going toward red. Yes, (t)he(y) fit a lot of non-PC profiles. Before we finished eating a truck full of similar males pulled up and the group of 4 got in and left with them.

You bet I keep an eye open for stuff.

If it looks weird, it usually is.

Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[JamisJockey]

I'm of the "sit back, toss my wallet to the badguy" and try and keep myself in a position to defend myself or other customers position. If the burglars turn their backs on me, I might consider taking care of business....might .....