A nearby Whataburger robbery tonight...WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF YOU WERE THERE?

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Min,

I gave a short answer earlier, this may be of more help.

No one can know what the right thing to do is in this situation. There is not enough information to make an informed decision. There probably isn't enough bandwidth to get the amount of info needed into our computers to make this decision.

If you are not there, if you don't know exactly who, what, where and when, you cannot guess what is the right thing to do.

Monday morning quarterbacking is worthless. Without all of the factors no one knows what they would do and if they tell you they do they are either lieing or delusional.

Anyone who says that they can know what they would do in the situation you mentioned, with the limited information you provided is wrong and fooling themselves.

We would all like to think that we would pull our guns and save the day. Well it is just possible that would be the exactly wrong thing to do. You have to have a lot more info than was provided ( you had to be there, man).

All you can do is train. Train. Train.

I don't mean stand up straight and shoot the pretty targets train, although this is helpful. I mean crawl on your belly, shoot around cover, shoot with weak hand, shoot from your back and every other possible combination, training.

We all hope you never have to use it but if you do the more training you have the better able to make the right decision you will be. Once you have made the decision the better able to follow through you will be.

Train.

By the way, there is no right answer. There are several that would work in this and most similar situations.

Did I mention.


TRAIN

DM
 
The problem with being a good witness is the tendency for perps to eliminate said witnesses. Given the growth of 3 strikes laws, the trend is to eliminate those who can put you in lock-up for life. So, there you are, being a good witness on the floor. You've given up the initiative, and probably your life.
 
Here's another thought:

What if you were there with a friend who also carries and is as good of a or better shooter as you? Now that the odds are a bit more even, would you be more likely to try and take the guys out?
 
I think this is a great question. It has nothing to do with fantasy, it has to do with planning. We'd better get things straight in our heads while we can think because if the worst happens we will not have time to think.

We also need to get straight in our heads the purpose of carrying a sidearm. If we are carrying in order to protect ourselves and our loved ones, then the answer to the original question would be to fire only if we believe that we or our loved ones are threatened.

If robbers were to shoot someone, then I'd have to assume that they are willing to shoot the witnesses as well. At that point I'd have to draw. The consequences of the draw could be good (dead or scared-off perps) or bad (dead me), but I plan to assume that the odds of something good happening by my doing nothing at that point would be no better.

If the robbers were to force everyone to lie down, then I'd assume they were about to execute us, and I'd have to draw. Of course, in this case I'd be wrong.

However, if all they do is go up to the counter & take the money then I am not at that time going to assume that my family is threatened. I'm not risking my life for Whataturder's bottom line.

After saying all of that, they say that plans never survive the first encounter.
 
They forced customers to the ground before taking their money and also cash from the safe, police said.

Again...just how in the world are you going to give up your wallet to the bad guy while on the ground?? Especially considering many of us carry IWB or regular strong side holster. Got a fanny pack? You can bet they want the contents of that also. Now consider that they bad guys may have searched the victims for money instead asking them to hand it over.

So your only other option is to risk having your weapon found....which is a very good chance, ditch your carry gun in hopes they won't find it on you, or take action.

I prefer to take action.

Good Shooting
Red
 
Min:

I was speaking tongue in cheek. My point about the hero fantasy was just to let posters know that all of the false bravado and nonsense about kill them all and let God sort it out would be viewed as just that...a fantasy. Nice to see there are some well thought out answers.
 
However, if all they do is go up to the counter & take the money then I am not at that time going to assume that my family is threatened. I'm not risking my life for Whataturder's bottom line.

Two guys with weapons drawn come into a location where your family is and wave the weapons around demanding money, and you don't think your family is threatened?
 
Howdy fantasy ppl, It's not so much a fantasy here in South Africa.

With 21,000 murders last year, it's a daily event, a national daily event.
 
Let them take my money, wait for them to head out. Get up and nail both square in the back, making sure to kill rather than just wound. But that's just because I trust the local DA and the local juries to side with me.
 
Options

Here are a few of the options that I could come up with.

1. Do nothing.

2. Upon BGs entering immediately draw and commence firing.

3. Wait for BGs to injure someone then draw and fire.

4. Wait for BGs to be distracted then draw and fire.

5. Wait for BGs to hassle you or your family then draw and fire.

6. Distract BGs with loud statement “GOOD THE COPS ARE HERE†then Draw and fire


Believe me I have no wish to be some stupid hero, but I would hate to look back on the experience and know that I cowered on the floor like some stupid Sheeple. Those guys can take the cash that isn't the part about the robbery that would make me mad. What would bother me is that about 1 in 10 of these stupid robberies ends with the BGs shooting someone. In Minneapolis this last summer there was a clerk that got shot for no apparent reason he gave them the money. They shot this poor kid for $153. If you had been in the store when he was shot and you just sat there on the floor acting all smug because you are not legally bound to stop a robbery. You would be second guessing yourself for years to come.

The part that would make me the most nervous about the confrontation is the shotgun. Depending on how it is loaded it could make finding cover a little tricky. If he has slugs in the thing taking cover behind anything would be almost useless. If the shotgun is loaded with buckshot he has a better chance of hitting you. That is why I think it would be important to make sure you draw while they are looking away. That should give a person the time to get a shot at the guy with the shotgun before they realize they have more then just sheeple in the burger joint.
 
Shotgun man goes first, carrying this item makes him prime target. Secondary target is then nervous about legal CCW in the store and he looks for exit. Plus he's concentrating on getting out alive.
 
The thought process in the back of everyone's mind is pretty clear-you really don't know what the bad guys are going to do. After all, they're already crazy enough to enter the place with a shotgun and a pistol, with the "intent" of holding the place and the people up.

How are you to know whether its going to be just armed robbery or they want no witnesses? How much time do you have to figure it out, and what do you do? Do you even have a chance or do they already have the drop on you because of where you are and what you're paying attention to at the time?
Are you willing to take the chance,with your life, that they are going to be "rational" about it?
The ideal to me would have been every customer and employee drawing down on the perps and given them residence on boot hill. That way, the good guys don't have to worry about what the intention was or what might have taken place.
The hand wringers can spend eternity second guessing what the bad guys might have done or what their intentions might have been. Of course, this would be a very different thread if the BG's had murdered everyone in the place, and what a shame it was indeed that a good citizen, "properly armed and papered", did nothing because they didn't initially feel threatened by the presence of two armed hoodlums?
The act of what they did put everyone's lives in the hands of dishonorable folks-the danger not being the weapons themselves, but the intent and actions of the perpetrators.
Just what is the mindset of people who want to give the armed robbers the benefit of doubt while there is a store full of customers and employees who are supposed to accomodate their actions:uhoh:
 
All that said, I don't think that everyone goes home to a fast food supper and lives happily ever after. Taking a human life should NEVER be a good moment. It sucks from every point of view, from the person who had to do it to the witnesses who saw it. The perps get off the easiest because they aren't alive to second guess their own actions. Everyone loses something..
 
By buzz_knox
The problem with being a good witness is the tendency for perps to eliminate said witnesses. Given the growth of 3 strikes laws, the trend is to eliminate those who can put you in lock-up for life. So, there you are, being a good witness on the floor. You've given up the initiative, and probably your life.

I'll preface my remarks by saying that I don't give a hoot about whataburger's money and I carry to protect me and mine. With that being said I think that buzz makes an excellent point. I would sure as heck feel that my life was being threatened by someone pointing a shotgun at ANY customers.

Another thing to think about that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that there could also be a robber already in the restaurant just acting like a normal customer and serving as backup should anything go wrong.

All things considered, at least how I picture it in my mind, I'd choose option number 2 from sturmruger's list of possible options. Hopefully I'd be alert enough to see the trouble coming and already have my gun in my hand when they hit the door.

Anyway you go this is a turd sandwich you're being served at whataburger and you're going to get a big bite. However by hitting them at the door I think this gives the citizen CCWer the best chance for getting inside the BG's OODA loop and catching them off guard making chances of survival the best. After hitting the BG's don't forget to scan the rest of the restaurant for accomplices! If none are present and the original BG's are no longer a threat do a tactical reload then call 911.
 
SturmRuger,

I'll take option #4 (Wait for BGs to be distracted then draw and fire) at the point that they order everyone to the ground.

I heard a story one time about "when do I fight?" and the answer was: when complying will remove the ability for you later decide to fight.

At the point you're being ordered to the ground, the very next thing could be a round to the back of the head and you'll probably never even hear it hit - just "lights out".

Might live, might die, but won't die face-down on the concrete without even knowing it...

kestrou
 
A Whataburger sounds really good right now :). See ya'll later!
I have my Glock 17 under my jacket, I hate to be interrupted while eating :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
and if it's going to come to making a move or taking one to the back of the head while kneeling in the walk-in cooler, I know what I'd do.

agreed - I'm iffy on the idea of opening fire in a robbery situation, but if it's my time to go I'd prefer not to go execution-style on the floor of a fast-food joint.
 
Well I have drawn and stopped a violent crime, so it's much more than a fantasy. Of course, in my case it was a naked lunatic dragging a woman into a townhouse tied up with ropes, as opposed to him holding a shotgun!

Every situation is different, but if I could fire from cover and get a clean shot on the unaware shotgun holder, I'd definitely go for it. Damn right. If I could shoot them while their eyes were elsewhere, I'd do it right from the draw, no warning, no nothing. Just fire away, center mass, back and forth until the mag was dry. Hell yes. Why not?

Assuming they were looking away momentarily, no innocents were in my line of fire etc.

snakelogo.jpg
 
Travis is dead on. YOU must take advantage before they do. IF you wait, you will be under their control.

It is real simple. They have drawn weapons with the intent to cause malice. Which rule is it that states that you never draw and aim unless you plan to destroy your target? YOU must assume the BG is intent on harming you or others. Prima facie evidence if intent if you ask me.

If you lose the advantage, then you are SCREWED.

My Chief of Police said to NOT second guess a BG cause they know what they are doing, and you do not know what they are doing.

What cover do you hope to find from a 12 ga?

As far as shooting them in the back, that is ILLEGAL. You will be charged.

For all you "whishers" out there my dad has a saying: "wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which one gets full first!"
 
UPDATE

UPDATE:

I got my dinner at this very Whataburger. It was empty save for a cop in the corner and one male customer. I asked about last night, and cashier said no one would come in today unless there was a cop there.

Two men came in with guns. The dining room was full - with families and lots of kids. They did rob each customer as well as the store's profits. The guy with the shotgun was in the back, while the other guy, who had a revolver, stood in front of the counter. There was no taking out the shotgun first, if you were going to draw.

They entered the side doors. The store also had front doors. Inside the dining area there were waist-high dividers that provided concealment, but no protection. The dining area was not big. There was no wall - all glass windows around.

Looking around, I got the impression that if you wanted to do something, you had to do something right away as soon as they got in. The shotgun guy went into the back, which was smart for him to do, whether that was intentional or not.

I tried to talk to the girl who was there last night, but she didn't say anything. She looked scared. The place hired all young Mexican workers who did not speak English well. FWIW, the men were both black.

I could feel the tension of the situation while I stood there. What an ordeal those people went through.
 
Talk about a tough situation. Here I am seated, with my hands full of greasy grub, surrounded by people. Two guys come in, guns in hand, on the offensive. Yeppers, I am good enough to draw and get a central nervous system hit on each of the bad guys thereby instantly incapacitating them before anyone can get hurt. Not a problem. Then again, if I miss and the bad guys cut loose with a shotgun and a revolver, at least I have all of those screaming women and crying kids to hide behind while I return fire. Hmmm...maybe I better rethink this scenario.
 
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