I tend to agree, Bikemutt. While all the people are harping about "mom and pop" stores and the evils of Big Box and Online retailers....I can't say I'm any more or less happy with guns bought through the local "mom and pop" shop, the "Big Box" stores, or online. My purchases have been quick and painless regarding all three, prices have been competitive, and my guns all WORKED, making the "service after the sale" less than a deciding factor. Considering today's guarantees and warranties, "service after the sale" typically means shipping a gun back to the factory,something I'm perfectly capeable of on my own. I understand paying a premium for services one might actually use, but the mom and pop shops don't really offer me anything I can't get elsewhere. I can call Ruger just as well as they can. I can affix a shipping label just as efficiently as they can. NOTHING the local shop is capable of doing is worth paying an extra $100 bucks just so that I sleep better at night "supporting a local business" at the cost of my OWN bank account. Why should I be so worried about THEIR bottom line as opposed to my own? I refuse to overpay simply because someone thinks that I should just to support "local" business. When local businesses start losing sleep on how to better my financial situation, maybe I'll return the favor, but when their mode of business is to separate me from as many of my dollars as possible, its hard to think of them too charitably.
Online "discount" gun dealers
- Thread starter TenRingGuns.com
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35Rem
Member
I'm pretty sure Bud's, Midway USA, Cabela's, BassPro, etc were all "Mom and Pop" stores at one time.
35Rem
Member
Oh yeah, do you feel better now?
WinThePennant
Member
Online shopping is here to stay. I really dislike when people try a gun out at a LGS, and then buy online to save a few bucks.
Online shopping will very likely wipe out the LGS. That's a shame, too, since the LGS is the backbone of the 2nd Amendment.
Online shopping will very likely wipe out the LGS. That's a shame, too, since the LGS is the backbone of the 2nd Amendment.
wojownik
Member
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???
???I rather thought natural rights were the backbone of the 2A, not my local merchant.
But anyway, LGS' that innovate, diversify, improvise will likely continue. Those that do not, will have a tough time ... as would any business that does not reinvest and reinvent itself from time to time.
Buds is a LGS that innovated and became a major online retailer. And still is a LGS and range.
There is a new business model and ecosystem that is evolving here. LGS would do well to try and figure out how they fit into - and can capitalize on - that new ecosystem. Local FFL services will still need to be around for that part of the transaction. What revenues that FFLs lose from direct gun sales will need to be recovered somewhere else.
Pietro Beretta
Member
Oregon (FICS); $10.00
Oregon State Police: Firearms Instant Check System
(No Sales Tax in Oregon; they just charge more for state income tax and property tax)
mgmorden
Member
Or they switch to a different distributor. Or they in effect become distributors themselves and start to house larger quantities of their merchandise onsite and do even more to cut out the middle man. There are plenty of online vendors not doing drop shipments that are still killing the LGS and their inflated prices.
As a revised quote regarding the internet, the free market interprets any such manipulation as damage, and routes around it.
Like it or not, you're not putting the genie back in the bottle. People buy things online now, and will continue to do so.
JohnBT
Member
"Online shopping will very likely wipe out the LGS."
Nah or much of anything else. For instance, have you noticed how Apple had to close all of the Apple stores because of how all their hi-tech-loving customers only do on-line shopping? Right, they didn't. People like to see things up close and touch them and then take them home immediately.
The gun stores around here seem to be doing well if the lines of buyers are any indication.
John
Nah or much of anything else. For instance, have you noticed how Apple had to close all of the Apple stores because of how all their hi-tech-loving customers only do on-line shopping? Right, they didn't. People like to see things up close and touch them and then take them home immediately.
The gun stores around here seem to be doing well if the lines of buyers are any indication.
John
WinThePennant
Member
Yeah, but Apple still gets the profit if you "try before you buy" an iPad. That's not the case with a LGS when you buy from Buds, Gallery of Guns, Gunbroker, etc. The LGS is basically carrying overhead for the online retailers.
I am glad I picked up on this thread. I have not read all of the posts but enough to see that a lot of people have mentioned customer service and fair treatment key.
I have gotten to the point that I hardly ever go into a gun shop. It is hard to describe the gun store attitude to people who have not experienced it. Too often I find myself dealing with the most arrogant, closed minded people behind the counter. In my mind typical gun store employee is a big guy with a holier than though attitude telling me what I should be doing swearing up and down they would kill Hitler and are 150% prepared for the apocolypse and you should be too kind of tough guys. You can see it in the look on their faces. They are so good and so knowledgable that you should wait on them. I have lived in three major cities in the last six years and it is the same everywhere I go.
I will give you an example. I went into a shop about six months ago for the first time and enquired about a gun transfer. The employee, and this is more or less a direct quote, said "why would I transfer in a gun when I have all of these for sale." I left. I guess 'I am sorry but we do not offer that. What kind of gun are you looking for I may have it,' was beneath him.
But there is one shop in my city that doesnt treat people that way. And I am a buyer. They are nice people. There is no politics in the shop. They treat you with respect no matter who you are and what you want. They will definetely try to steer you in the right direction if you have any questions and will do everything they can to get you what you need.
Example one I wont pay for even if they are the cheapest. As I said on another post that is why I avoid gun shows like the plague. Example two I will pay a premium, albeit not a lot, over on line distributers.
I like the human touch over on line sales in all categories, not just guns. I am in a customer service business too. But I bet my on line % of overall commercial buying has tripled in the last two years.
I have gotten to the point that I hardly ever go into a gun shop. It is hard to describe the gun store attitude to people who have not experienced it. Too often I find myself dealing with the most arrogant, closed minded people behind the counter. In my mind typical gun store employee is a big guy with a holier than though attitude telling me what I should be doing swearing up and down they would kill Hitler and are 150% prepared for the apocolypse and you should be too kind of tough guys. You can see it in the look on their faces. They are so good and so knowledgable that you should wait on them. I have lived in three major cities in the last six years and it is the same everywhere I go.
I will give you an example. I went into a shop about six months ago for the first time and enquired about a gun transfer. The employee, and this is more or less a direct quote, said "why would I transfer in a gun when I have all of these for sale." I left. I guess 'I am sorry but we do not offer that. What kind of gun are you looking for I may have it,' was beneath him.
But there is one shop in my city that doesnt treat people that way. And I am a buyer. They are nice people. There is no politics in the shop. They treat you with respect no matter who you are and what you want. They will definetely try to steer you in the right direction if you have any questions and will do everything they can to get you what you need.
Example one I wont pay for even if they are the cheapest. As I said on another post that is why I avoid gun shows like the plague. Example two I will pay a premium, albeit not a lot, over on line distributers.
I like the human touch over on line sales in all categories, not just guns. I am in a customer service business too. But I bet my on line % of overall commercial buying has tripled in the last two years.
Now that I am on a rant I have another one.
A friend of mine who grew up in New England had never shot a gun in his life. We are in our mid thirties and he wanted to buy a shotgun for home protection. We went out to the dessert and shot a couple shotguns and pistols and he stuck with the shotgun. I was going to go with him but was out of town, and he ended up going to a pretty big gun shop. He left with no gun not completely turned off but questioning whether he really wanted to get in the gun game. he said that, for starters, he was raised a Democrat and, though he now sees the light, is a little sensitive to the subject. They were saying anyone who voted for Obama was an idiot blah blah blah. Well his parents did. Then the sales guy is trying to convince him to put down 1200 bucks on a benelli(I think) semi auto 12 gauge. He wasnt satisfied that a 1300 defender was what my friend wanted. In 20 gauge blasphemy!! There is nothing wrong with trying to upsell products, but be professional about it. Apparently the fact that he was a starter, his wife is tiny, and he was more comfortable with a 20 gauge didnt matter. If you want real protection you have to have this!! My buddy just finally left.
I took him to the one shop I go to. He walked out with a Mossberg 500 18 inch 20 gauge(it was used, cheaper than the new defender, and is almost the same gun), 20 OO-buckshot, and a cartridge sleeve. He was comfortable enough to eopenly admit he had only once shot a handgun and that was with me. They talked to him a little about a class they teach and would be happy to answer any questions.
So I guess my point is if you treat customers like number one the On line retailers will put you out of business. I you treat them like number two you will probably do well.
A friend of mine who grew up in New England had never shot a gun in his life. We are in our mid thirties and he wanted to buy a shotgun for home protection. We went out to the dessert and shot a couple shotguns and pistols and he stuck with the shotgun. I was going to go with him but was out of town, and he ended up going to a pretty big gun shop. He left with no gun not completely turned off but questioning whether he really wanted to get in the gun game. he said that, for starters, he was raised a Democrat and, though he now sees the light, is a little sensitive to the subject. They were saying anyone who voted for Obama was an idiot blah blah blah. Well his parents did. Then the sales guy is trying to convince him to put down 1200 bucks on a benelli(I think) semi auto 12 gauge. He wasnt satisfied that a 1300 defender was what my friend wanted. In 20 gauge blasphemy!! There is nothing wrong with trying to upsell products, but be professional about it. Apparently the fact that he was a starter, his wife is tiny, and he was more comfortable with a 20 gauge didnt matter. If you want real protection you have to have this!! My buddy just finally left.
I took him to the one shop I go to. He walked out with a Mossberg 500 18 inch 20 gauge(it was used, cheaper than the new defender, and is almost the same gun), 20 OO-buckshot, and a cartridge sleeve. He was comfortable enough to eopenly admit he had only once shot a handgun and that was with me. They talked to him a little about a class they teach and would be happy to answer any questions.
So I guess my point is if you treat customers like number one the On line retailers will put you out of business. I you treat them like number two you will probably do well.
Cesiumsponge
Member
I am fortunate enough that my local gun store is one of the smaller, but well-known top tier stores known around the AR forum circuits. They offer fantastic prices because their sales are primarily web sales. There is no way a specialty store like that could survive on local sales as I'm sure 100 people will buy a Bushmaster or RRA for every Noveske sold, and they sell ARs and NFA items exclusively. By picking a niche market and catering to it with active sponsorship and representation on AR forums and excellent customer service, they crafted a national customer base and keep a local storefront for their local customers.
For a local store, they have fantastic staff who are knowledgeable. I hate most gun stores because I have a low tolerance for listening to tall tales or bad advice.
One reason to purchase online is simply tax and availability. For lower dollar purchases, transfer fees can often outweigh savings and I use local sources if they charge a reasonable price. That is okay for more common things but if you want niche items, good luck! For certain purchases like Accuracy International or Sako topped with a Hensoldt, there is simply no local dealers for that kind of hardware and when you're looking at almost $1000 in tax alone. I had to look to the east coast for a Sako and the Midwest for an Anshutz and Walther target rifle.
For a local store, they have fantastic staff who are knowledgeable. I hate most gun stores because I have a low tolerance for listening to tall tales or bad advice.
One reason to purchase online is simply tax and availability. For lower dollar purchases, transfer fees can often outweigh savings and I use local sources if they charge a reasonable price. That is okay for more common things but if you want niche items, good luck! For certain purchases like Accuracy International or Sako topped with a Hensoldt, there is simply no local dealers for that kind of hardware and when you're looking at almost $1000 in tax alone. I had to look to the east coast for a Sako and the Midwest for an Anshutz and Walther target rifle.
B J Elliott
Member
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2008
- Messages
- 42
Online
I have searched and searched but could not find a lgs that could beat my favorite online guns shop. I have bought at least 5 guns online with no hitch and much cheaper than the local gun stores around here at least in Middle Tn.
I have searched and searched but could not find a lgs that could beat my favorite online guns shop. I have bought at least 5 guns online with no hitch and much cheaper than the local gun stores around here at least in Middle Tn.
B J Elliott
Member
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2008
- Messages
- 42
Exactly!!!!!
TenRingGuns.com
Member
It's unfortunate that some local gun shops don't provide the service they should, things like answering questions, making recommendations, and pointing customers in the right direction. But not all shops are like this, I know I'm not.
This is been one reason why I've been able to set myself a part from other dealers in my area, I don't sell my customers anything, I listen to what they have to say, answer their questions as best I can, and have a friendly attitude regardless of their background, experience, etc. Customers like this, who wouldn't?
While most folks here are "power users" of guns, many, many more are not and they appreciate the service aspect of gun sales. Good service is a lost art but it doesn't have to stay that way.
This is been one reason why I've been able to set myself a part from other dealers in my area, I don't sell my customers anything, I listen to what they have to say, answer their questions as best I can, and have a friendly attitude regardless of their background, experience, etc. Customers like this, who wouldn't?
While most folks here are "power users" of guns, many, many more are not and they appreciate the service aspect of gun sales. Good service is a lost art but it doesn't have to stay that way.
Gtimothy
Member
I always support my local shops as much as I can and hopefully they understand why I have to shop around sometimes. My name isn't Rockafeller and I work VERY hard for what little the Government lets me take home! That being said, I spend a LOT of time doing research and comparing prices for everything I buy. If my local Gun shop has the gun I want to buy, I produce all of the information from where I saw it cheaper and allow them to do what they can to win my patronage. It might be as little as waving the transfer fee.... I'm pretty easy to make happy and service goes a LONG way in my book.
Cesiumsponge
Member
Gun stores that are strictly LGS can't sell as cheap as online stores, but if a LGS takes to online selling and finds a good niche, they can increase their volume overall and possibly drop margins a bit. I'm sure Ten Ring Guns also comes across customers that simply can't be satisfied or have unrealistic expectations. Running a business really is a pain in the butt and I don't think most people realize that. I've checked his prices on the website and they're fair for our area. One only needs to wander over to a certain gun store in Bellevue if they want to see sticker shock.
There tends to be several categories of shoppers. Those that did their research and know what they want, the on-the-fence guys, and the ones that wander in and don't know what they're after. I tend to be the first because I hate driving around and wasting time learning on the go. I believe most posters here are also in this category. After all, a forum is for exchanging information and asking questions.
Of course, I think the majority of gun owners are the latter two because we don't have 50 million folks registered on gun forums and I've simply found that 80% of gun stores treat you like a neophyte in a condescending manner. I have no problem with treating all new customers as if it's their first time stepping foot in a gun store, but a lot of shops use it as an opportunity to practice their politician skills. In the early days, I would play along for fun...but it got tiring once I started hearing the tall tales, the bad advice, and old wives' tales about caliber this and brand that.
There tends to be several categories of shoppers. Those that did their research and know what they want, the on-the-fence guys, and the ones that wander in and don't know what they're after. I tend to be the first because I hate driving around and wasting time learning on the go. I believe most posters here are also in this category. After all, a forum is for exchanging information and asking questions.
Of course, I think the majority of gun owners are the latter two because we don't have 50 million folks registered on gun forums and I've simply found that 80% of gun stores treat you like a neophyte in a condescending manner. I have no problem with treating all new customers as if it's their first time stepping foot in a gun store, but a lot of shops use it as an opportunity to practice their politician skills. In the early days, I would play along for fun...but it got tiring once I started hearing the tall tales, the bad advice, and old wives' tales about caliber this and brand that.
Some people are happy with cheap, others want the specialized attention that can only be had at a gun store that wants your business. I treat every customer that walks through my door the same no matter if they are looking for a Hi-Point or a 338-378 Weatherby.
I am one of 2 SOT (class 3) dealers in the county I live in, then you have to drive at least a hour to get to the next closest SOT, I have people driving 3 hours to buy from me, and I have not had a grand opening yet, word of mouth is better advertising than anything.
A couple of those people drive by dealers that ARE cheaper than me, but they treat their customers like crap and they would rather have that specialized attention I offer like letting you shoot a suppressor before you buy it, and not treat you like your the dumbest thing God ever stretched a piece of hide across.
So by your dollars and cents reasoning its better to be talked down to and get 0 customer service than pay 5-15 percent more and get better customer service and a dealer that will go out of their way to make you (the customer) happy?
JohnBT
Member
"It is hard to describe the gun store attitude to people who have not experienced it."
The attitudes are wonderful around here. Good folks, helpful, friendly, I couldn't ask for more. Even the shops over in the Valley remember me and go out of their way to show me guns they think I'd like. Maybe it's a state by state thing if you have had a different experience where you live.
Even the local Bass Pro and Gander Mountain stores aren't too bad, but I'm talking about real gun stores, not chain stores.
I see Green Top's used gun selection is down to 13 pages. Sales are still booming it seems.
www.cpostores.com/greentophuntfish/graphics/guns.pdf
The attitudes are wonderful around here. Good folks, helpful, friendly, I couldn't ask for more. Even the shops over in the Valley remember me and go out of their way to show me guns they think I'd like. Maybe it's a state by state thing if you have had a different experience where you live.
Even the local Bass Pro and Gander Mountain stores aren't too bad, but I'm talking about real gun stores, not chain stores.
I see Green Top's used gun selection is down to 13 pages. Sales are still booming it seems.
www.cpostores.com/greentophuntfish/graphics/guns.pdf
mgmorden
Member
Couple of things to keep in mind though: you're saying that they'd pay more for positive treatment from one local store versus negative at another. That's understandable, because there is a strong direct dislike of negative treatment.
HOWEVER, it seems that many more people are absolutely fine (and many PREFER) the emotionally neutral experience of dealing with a computer. When I shop at Buds there's no clerks there to "help", but there's also none whose time I'm wasting by looking and waffling about a gun for hours or even days on end. There's nobody to try and upsell me or talk me into something different. Even if they were being friendly there's nobody whose boring stories I have to smile and sit through. There's just a list of items, prices, and a nice "Add to cart" button. Online shopping keeps other people out of what I want to be a private decision.
With guns its clear cut - online is virtually always cheaper. With things like electronics and the like though, the price difference isn't always so high. Still, between buying at Best Buy or another big store, versus ordering online from somewhere like Newegg, I'll order online every time - even if the price is the same.
ErikO
Member
I have a faily local gun shop that charges a fair price for transfers, does '30 days' for used gun purchases and will let you 'invest' in his store until the investment reaches the price of a new gun. He started out as a gunsmith working out of his basement and made enough to open a store front. Owes $0 to any bank for his business, no starter loan to worry about paying.
His prices are fair and he has no issue with transfering guns from Bud's at a $25 fee. Honestly, I'd have no problem paying an extra $50-75 for a gun from him as I genuinely want to see this guy succeed. I got a great deal on a stripped AR lower and he's confident that he can get a good price on the parts I need to finish out at least one if not more uppers for it.
Will I get some stuff from Model 1 or somesuch mailed to me? Sure, but largely due to the fact that it's outside the range of what he normally carries. Anything I can get from him I will, such as the AR armorer's tool I got from him for $10 less than I would have paid to have mail ordered it (tax was less than the s/h would have been and his price was $3 less to boot!)
His prices are fair and he has no issue with transfering guns from Bud's at a $25 fee. Honestly, I'd have no problem paying an extra $50-75 for a gun from him as I genuinely want to see this guy succeed. I got a great deal on a stripped AR lower and he's confident that he can get a good price on the parts I need to finish out at least one if not more uppers for it.
Will I get some stuff from Model 1 or somesuch mailed to me? Sure, but largely due to the fact that it's outside the range of what he normally carries. Anything I can get from him I will, such as the AR armorer's tool I got from him for $10 less than I would have paid to have mail ordered it (tax was less than the s/h would have been and his price was $3 less to boot!)
It may be the areas I live in. I am rather close to California but fortunately not in it. The shops back in east Texas where I grew up and where most of my family resides are not like that either. They are all as nice as they can be."It is hard to describe the gun store attitude to people who have not experienced it."
The attitudes are wonderful around here. Good folks, helpful, friendly, I couldn't ask for more. Even the shops over in the Valley remember me and go out of their way to show me guns they think I'd like. Maybe it's a state by state thing if you have had a different experience where you live.
Even the local Bass Pro and Gander Mountain stores aren't too bad, but I'm talking about real gun stores, not chain stores.
I see Green Top's used gun selection is down to 13 pages. Sales are still booming it seems.
www.cpostores.com/greentophuntfish/graphics/guns.pdf
After contemplating my posts last night I realized I should probably give a couple of shops here that I have not gone in a chance even though my current dealer does everything I need. But he doesnt have everything.
And Mr Fast. I appreciate your post. I spend time in Washington and will come check out TenRingGuns.
ForumSurfer
Member
Here's how it works for me:
1. Research what I want. Check online prices and availability at buds and jetguns. Check Davidson's gallery of guns to see what a high price looks like.
2. Search the local stores to see if they have it because I want it now.
3. Clerk at store 1 comes across as a know it all and informs me of what I really want...loses my business.
4. Clerk at store 2 doesn't help me next even though I was here longer...loses my business. Really, I'm invisible in a retail environment. It might be due to my extremely laid back demeanor.
5. At store 3, prices are exuberantly high compared to online, like $625 vs $525. Of course I also have to factor in shipping and my $10 "back room FFL" guy. Lets face facts, I'm a shooter and if I can save $50, that's a few boxes of ammo.
6. Maybe stop by Gander Mountain for a glimpse at the absolute highest price you can find. Really...how do they sell anything?!
7. Stop by local favorite pawn shop where they know my name. He shows me what I ask for or show me a price for ordering it. He never beats bud's price, but it's close. He's good people, so I buy fro him.
I know I don't buy a million dollars worth of guns every year, but if you don't remember my face or name (small town) after I've bought 4 or 5 guns from you...then I won't buy another regardless of price or service.
The LGS isn't the backbone of the 2nd amendment, we are as a community.
LGS are here to stay and won't be replaced by online dealers. There just may be a large chunk of their business gone. I think online dealers keep LGS's in check.
1. Research what I want. Check online prices and availability at buds and jetguns. Check Davidson's gallery of guns to see what a high price looks like.
2. Search the local stores to see if they have it because I want it now.
3. Clerk at store 1 comes across as a know it all and informs me of what I really want...loses my business.
4. Clerk at store 2 doesn't help me next even though I was here longer...loses my business. Really, I'm invisible in a retail environment. It might be due to my extremely laid back demeanor.
5. At store 3, prices are exuberantly high compared to online, like $625 vs $525. Of course I also have to factor in shipping and my $10 "back room FFL" guy. Lets face facts, I'm a shooter and if I can save $50, that's a few boxes of ammo.
6. Maybe stop by Gander Mountain for a glimpse at the absolute highest price you can find. Really...how do they sell anything?!
7. Stop by local favorite pawn shop where they know my name. He shows me what I ask for or show me a price for ordering it. He never beats bud's price, but it's close. He's good people, so I buy fro him.
I know I don't buy a million dollars worth of guns every year, but if you don't remember my face or name (small town) after I've bought 4 or 5 guns from you...then I won't buy another regardless of price or service.
The LGS isn't the backbone of the 2nd amendment, we are as a community.
LGS are here to stay and won't be replaced by online dealers. There just may be a large chunk of their business gone. I think online dealers keep LGS's in check.
Jaxondog
Member
Could not have said it better
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