only one stopped to help..
- Thread starter trueg50
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alsaqr
Member
It's called the Kitty Genovese syndrome.
The Bushmaster
Member
It's called "fear of getting involved" syndrome.
Why is this shocking? Search for any thread about whether people here would use force to protect strangers and the response you get is "I only can be bothered to help myself or my immediate family. screw the rest of the world" (I am paraphrasing here).
If they can not be bothered to help people while they are being assaulted, what makes you think they would want to be troubled with stopping to help after the fact?
If they can not be bothered to help people while they are being assaulted, what makes you think they would want to be troubled with stopping to help after the fact?
It's called the "bystander effect". The more people watching the event unfold, the less each individual bystander feels that it is their responsibility to help. In effect, the guilt of not helping is diffused among the members of the crowd watching.
wulfhart
Member
I am curious does anybody know UPS' policy on carrying while driving? Seems it would have saved this fellow a lot of pain if he had a way to defend himself. Same goes for any driver, including the Hilton driver.
The lack of stopping doesn't surprise me in the least. I used to think people cared if someone else was being attacked, but very few people care anymore. People are simply afraid and unwilling to come to another's aid if it means risk to themselves. I doubt we were ever
The lack of stopping doesn't surprise me in the least. I used to think people cared if someone else was being attacked, but very few people care anymore. People are simply afraid and unwilling to come to another's aid if it means risk to themselves. I doubt we were ever
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wulfhart
Member
Is it illegal to carry in state/federal buildings? I am not familiar with that law. I am aware of courthouses, but I thought other buildings were fine. If it is the case, perhaps a "truck gun," but then they might start being intentional targets for that reason.
There are places in my town where there is no way I would drive a big truck labeled, "FREE STUFF!" Unless I had a buddy and we were both armed in a armored car.
There are places in my town where there is no way I would drive a big truck labeled, "FREE STUFF!" Unless I had a buddy and we were both armed in a armored car.
It may not be gun related, but it's a valid scenario that could have very quickly become gun related.
This is a little more complex than the previous example of the robbery at gunpoint as there was no gun involved and it doesn't seem that the UPS driver's life was in immediate danger even though he might have been losing. If his life was not in immediate danger, other than calling 911, is anything else justified? Doesn't seem so to me. I think this is one case where you may be better-advised to get involved if you were NOT carrying since you getting in a fight while carrying a gun could escalate things where they ordinarily would not have gone.
For what it's worth, I voted to shoot the bad guy in the armed robbery example for the reason that the robbery was incidental and nearly irrelevant. A criminal was pointing a gun at an innocent. I only mention this because I am not normally in the 'don't get involved' camp when someone's life is in danger and by acting you aren't risking the lives of loved ones.
This is a little more complex than the previous example of the robbery at gunpoint as there was no gun involved and it doesn't seem that the UPS driver's life was in immediate danger even though he might have been losing. If his life was not in immediate danger, other than calling 911, is anything else justified? Doesn't seem so to me. I think this is one case where you may be better-advised to get involved if you were NOT carrying since you getting in a fight while carrying a gun could escalate things where they ordinarily would not have gone.
For what it's worth, I voted to shoot the bad guy in the armed robbery example for the reason that the robbery was incidental and nearly irrelevant. A criminal was pointing a gun at an innocent. I only mention this because I am not normally in the 'don't get involved' camp when someone's life is in danger and by acting you aren't risking the lives of loved ones.
wulfhart
Member
Taking this just from the article, I believe deadly force was justified. To quote the witness
In the drivers shoes, I would have not stopped to confront. This could just be my perspective of: If there is a branch blocking the road, you are about to be bushwhacked. Regardless it seems inadvisable to attempt a confrontation with two individuals.
From an onlooker, I would interfere (with deadly force if absolutely needed) if verbal warning and 911 had no affect. I wouldn't pursue. Priority should be to stabilize the injured driver.
Depending on what "his head getting smashed in" means I would say his life was very much in danger. To add to it, there were multiple assailants.
In the drivers shoes, I would have not stopped to confront. This could just be my perspective of: If there is a branch blocking the road, you are about to be bushwhacked. Regardless it seems inadvisable to attempt a confrontation with two individuals.
From an onlooker, I would interfere (with deadly force if absolutely needed) if verbal warning and 911 had no affect. I wouldn't pursue. Priority should be to stabilize the injured driver.
Chainsaw2
Member
While this case is more cut and dried, stories abound of some good samaritan getting involved in something that he knew nothing about and getting sued or prosecuted in the aftermath. Be careful what you're doing, as it could really cost you.
As you have already gathered, I am one of those that for the most part don't get involved in other people's problems. Family and friends only. We're all big kids now, and can get our CCW's and protect ourselves, as we should.
jim
As you have already gathered, I am one of those that for the most part don't get involved in other people's problems. Family and friends only. We're all big kids now, and can get our CCW's and protect ourselves, as we should.
jim
mljdeckard
Member
There's a difference between being too scared to get involved, and watching carefully while calling for help. Just because we are being VERY careful about using deadly force to intervene in a situation we are not familiar with doesn't mean we would do nothing at all.
wulfhart
Member
If someone is being murdered. I am willing to accept the risk of lawsuit. I agree stay out of other people's business as much as possible, but I consider murder, attempted murder or preventable death my business.
If it was a street fight, so be it not my problem, both participants volunteered. If it is a clear victim and assailant situation as this one is or a man attacking a woman/child. I will intervene in such a manner as I deem needed to prevent loss of life.
If my goal was to preserve my way of life, prosecution or lawsuit would definitely keep me from interfering, but I would rather be in prison and have saved a life than to live free knowing I sat idly while another man was murdered.
Don't think I am trigger happy, because my goal in preserving life goes for both victim and assailant.
Edit:
I agree with mljdeckard, Calling for help would be good, but ignoring because it isn't my business is not good.
If it was a street fight, so be it not my problem, both participants volunteered. If it is a clear victim and assailant situation as this one is or a man attacking a woman/child. I will intervene in such a manner as I deem needed to prevent loss of life.
If my goal was to preserve my way of life, prosecution or lawsuit would definitely keep me from interfering, but I would rather be in prison and have saved a life than to live free knowing I sat idly while another man was murdered.
Don't think I am trigger happy, because my goal in preserving life goes for both victim and assailant.
Edit:
I agree with mljdeckard, Calling for help would be good, but ignoring because it isn't my business is not good.
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TrickyDick
Member
It's kinda funny that you talk about stepping up and doing something. Just the other night, my cousin and I were waiting in the truck while a friend was in the store, and through the window we saw a guy clearly steal something and walk out. Well, i stepped out of the truck and said something and he kept walking away, but I didn't pursue because it wasn't worth it. I just let the clerk know what had just happened. But after it was all said and done, my cousin asked me if I could've used my firearm. I just kinda thought how dumb that question was, but made him aware that the firearm was not to fight crime but to only protect a life in innement danger. I guess he just didn't understand the idea of a CCW. It's not a key to vigilantism, it's for life protection.
wulfhart
Member
That is exactly right.
sherman123
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I could be wrong, but if I had to bet I'd guess that these two punks (Mr. O'Reilly and Mr. Gardner) were wearing something along the lines of tall tees and flatbill caps with the stickers on top and called each other "dogg" alot. I believe in being weary of all strangers, but especially the ones who dress like thugs. They're almost always trouble. These kids probably wanted to jump this man and then go brag about how "gangsta" they think they are. It sounds like not getting out and confronting them would have been the best solution. Then it wouldn't have mattered if he were carrying or not if he simply drove away. I wasn't there though and don't know what the victim's options were. I just hope the man gets well soon.
UPS and their Drivers have always been alright to me in my dealings with them.
I'd stop and bail out a UPS driver if he or she was getting into some rhuebarb and getting the worst of it.
Trouble is, with general 'strangers' fighting with eachother, you just do not know who is who or what led up to it, and even trying to break it up in a good natured way is not always going to work.
Worth trying if one thinks the scene would allow it....evaluating the context and the participants such as one may, is important in these things.
It's a total 'judgement call' kinda thing...and how one feels confidence and ability wise.
I just regard it as an 'option' I am free to elect, or free to pass by, depending on my take on it and how my sense of intervening seems to me to be something I could do well, or, not.
If I do not intuitively feel I could do it well, I probably better pass or elect some other option for trying to help.
I'd stop and bail out a UPS driver if he or she was getting into some rhuebarb and getting the worst of it.
Trouble is, with general 'strangers' fighting with eachother, you just do not know who is who or what led up to it, and even trying to break it up in a good natured way is not always going to work.
Worth trying if one thinks the scene would allow it....evaluating the context and the participants such as one may, is important in these things.
It's a total 'judgement call' kinda thing...and how one feels confidence and ability wise.
I just regard it as an 'option' I am free to elect, or free to pass by, depending on my take on it and how my sense of intervening seems to me to be something I could do well, or, not.
If I do not intuitively feel I could do it well, I probably better pass or elect some other option for trying to help.
Cosmoline
Member
People, remember it was an infamous (and erroneous) wire report that created the legend of Kitty Genovese. What really happened that cold night was very different from the screaming indignant headlines that created the great myth that 38 people watched when a woman was stabbed to death. In reality few people even heard her, and one who did yelled at the man to leave her alone. He did. He ran off. And she staggered off out of view. The few who noticed anything thought it was a typical drunken brawl between a couple. If you've lived in a bad part of any town you know how incredibly common these are.
And in this case, ONCE AGAIN, we have a slapdash wire report that describes on the one hand a UPS drivers head being "beaten in" and then goes on to note that he's doing fine and the charges are simple assault. Who knows what people saw.
Here's what an entirely random group of people from my own city did last month to save the lives of people trapped in an aircraft that was exploding with aviation fuel. Note the Alaska Air Nat'l Guardsman, who was the last one to turn from the flames. Sadly a little boy didn't make it. He was obscured from view buried under debris. But the rest were saved.
And in this case, ONCE AGAIN, we have a slapdash wire report that describes on the one hand a UPS drivers head being "beaten in" and then goes on to note that he's doing fine and the charges are simple assault. Who knows what people saw.
Here's what an entirely random group of people from my own city did last month to save the lives of people trapped in an aircraft that was exploding with aviation fuel. Note the Alaska Air Nat'l Guardsman, who was the last one to turn from the flames. Sadly a little boy didn't make it. He was obscured from view buried under debris. But the rest were saved.
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Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
Well at least they could have been good witnesses right?
I get the same sense of disgust from reading this kind of story as I do when read posters on THR say that they would not stop a crime in progress and would just "be a good witness."
And what of the cost to your soul/psyche now spending the rest of your life knowing you let someone die?
Vigilantism is when you go out looking for crimes to stop/solve. Having a crime randomly taking place in front of you, and you acting to help the innocent is just plain being a good person.
All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
I get the same sense of disgust from reading this kind of story as I do when read posters on THR say that they would not stop a crime in progress and would just "be a good witness."
And what of the cost to your soul/psyche now spending the rest of your life knowing you let someone die?
Vigilantism is when you go out looking for crimes to stop/solve. Having a crime randomly taking place in front of you, and you acting to help the innocent is just plain being a good person.
All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
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LHRGunslinger
Member
Long story short they don't make people like they used to.
Bullnettles
Member
Hate to change the mood here, but shouldn't we be GLAD someone stopped. We know people in the US are, for the majority, irrational, scared, and selfish; look at our Executive office if you need proof. I commend the kid (I'm the same age...) for doing something about it. I know CHL holders who will protect themselves and their close ones only, because it isn't their problem... I would have trouble sleeping if I didn't do anything, but if you sleep well at nights after seeing something like that and driving off, at least call 911 for the guy 
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