Open Carry in Washington State

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halfgone

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I just emailed the DoL of Washington State (William Foth) and he said that open carry is allowed in our fine state. To show ways in which open-carry is more limited than CCW, he told me to read RCW 9.41.300 and 9.41.050.

My question to y'all, is have you ever open carried here?

I just open carried for the first time in Wyoming this weekend, and it was kinda cool. You begin to feel like a free man, who know longer has to ask 'permission' for his freedoms.

HG
 
I wouldn't open carry in any city of note in Washington state. A THR member was even hassled in conservative Ellensburg for carrying in a store. While technically legal, you have to make sure that every single person you meet doesn't get freaked out, or the police will cite you for disturbing the peace, or some other such "catch-all" law.

I only open carry when I'm in the field hunting.

WA has "shall issue" concealed carry with reasonable non-resident rules, and that is the way to go.
 
Well, I guess if you do CCW, and you accidentally show, the cops can't get you for it like they can in Texas.

'course, they may still try to nab you by the same catch-all laws that they would get you for otherwise.

Just kinda pisses me off that I can't (hmm... maybe that should read "won't") practive the full extent of the Law because some people may get "offended".

I mean, if we have any desire at all to turn this state/country around maybe we should start doing things like this certain times a year. Let them realize that it really isn't that big of a deal.

HG
 
does this make sense?

This is from 9.41.050

(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.


So you can open carry a loaded pistol on your person unless you get in your vehicle. If you open carry in your vehicle it must be unloaded. Does this make sense to anyone?

Pax DOmini, etc...
 
Wait: can you please publish the EMail you sent out and the exact response?

Lonnie Wilson has been working on this for a long time. He and I did some research on this and found an interesting connection between a 1969 law now treated by some agencies as an open-carry ban and the "Panther Paranoia" of the late 1960s that culminated in California's genuine loaded-open-carry ban.

We turned over our findings to Clayton Cramer, who wrote up:

http://www.claytoncramer.com/PopularMagazines/WashingtonOpenCarryBan.html
 
So you can open carry a loaded pistol on your person unless you get in your vehicle. If you open carry in your vehicle it must be unloaded. Does this make sense to anyone?

I don't know why this is considered quite so unusual. Several "open carry" states are only open carry of a loaded handgun on foot and consider it "concealed" for the purposes of carry if you do so in a motor vehicle. The states of Pennsylvania, Michigan, Alabama, Utah, and New Hampshire come to mind.

The "vehicle carry" provision along with the exemption from the 5 day waiting period is one of the reasons why training has not been required thus far in Washington State.
 
I only open carry on the property I live but I did see a guy open carry a little Colt Mustang in McDonalds about 9 years a go , no one batted an eye .
 
If you have a WA state CCW and you're carrying open, fine AND you're covered once you get into a car. Your CCW permit rights don't vanish once you start open-carrying.

Now, this is still controversial with some departments. There is an effort to get clarification from the WA state AG's office and someone very paranoid might wait for that. BUT a statement from the head of licensing would help a lot as any attempt at a criminal conviction would run head-on into "intent to commit a crime" that would be lacking if somebody at that level says it's OK.
 
Open carry, or more properly, the issue of being prosecuted for open carry in an urban or suburban environment has been extensively discussed here and elsewhere. An opinion by a state official from the Department of Licensing of course has no force and effect from the criminal prosecution standpoint. You would likely not be successful in defending a prosecution under RCW 9.41.270 by citing such an opinion.

An advisory opinion from the State Attorney General's office would be of some value, but they have thus far declined to issue any such opinion.

The bottom line for me, and most others who have seriously studied this matter, is that open carry in the context of outdoor recreation is permitted, but you are taking significant legal chances for prosecution under the above-cited statute if you carry in an urban or suburban environment. And given that conviction would likely result in the loss of your Washington CPL, it is simply not worth it for me. Others, who feel strongly about this from a political standpoint, will disagree with me.

The ambiguity will persist until such time as the AG's office issues that advisory opinion, the Legislature changes the law to explicitly permit open carry, or we have case law that explicitly permits open carry. None of these exist at the present time.
 
but you are taking significant legal chances for prosecution under the above-cited statute if you carry in an urban or suburban environment.

Who has been successfully prosecuted and under what statute?

Rick
 
Hey guys, good thoughts. thanks.

Here's the letter:

Dear Mr. Gone:

Thank you for you e-mail question concerning questions related to RWC 9.41.060. RCW 9.41.060(8) does set up an exception to the restrictions on carrying firearms for persons engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity. For the purpose of enforcement of this provision, law enforcement will review the circumstances surrounding each case and make a determination if there is a violation of law or if a concealed pistol license would have been required.

With regard to Washington being an open carry-state. This is correct, however it does not provide you with the right to carry a non-concealed handgun in the same places as someone with a valid concealed pistol license. For this I would refer you to RCW 9.41.300 and RCW 9.41.050.

Once again, thank you for e-mail question concerning questions related to RCW 9.41.060. If you have further question you may reach me at 360-664-6622.

Bill Forth, Program manager
Firearms Unit
Public Protection Services Section
Business and Professions division
Department of Licensing

Yeah, I feel pretty safe (I know that doesn't mean anything, but hear me out) in my neighbourhood, so this would be more about exercising my rights than anything. If I was doing this for the sole purpose of self-protection it would be CPL all the way.

HG
 
and here are the relevant Washington State Laws

RCW 9.41.050
Carrying firearms.

(1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.

(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

(b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

(3)(a) A person at least eighteen years of age who is in possession of an unloaded pistol shall not leave the unloaded pistol in a vehicle unless the unloaded pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

(b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

(4) Nothing in this section permits the possession of firearms illegal to possess under state or federal law.


[2003 c 53 § 28; 1997 c 200 § 1; 1996 c 295 § 4; 1994 sp.s. c 7 § 405; 1982 1st ex.s. c 47 § 3; 1961 c 124 § 4; 1935 c 172 § 5; RRS § 2516-5.]


Notes:
Intent -- Effective date -- 2003 c 53: See notes following RCW 2.48.180.

Finding -- Intent -- Severability -- 1994 sp.s. c 7: See notes following RCW 43.70.540.


Effective date -- 1994 sp.s. c 7 §§ 401-410, 413-416, 418-437, and 439-460: See note following RCW 9.41.010.


Severability -- 1982 1st ex.s. c 47: See note following RCW 9.41.190.
=========================================================

RCW 9.41.300
Weapons prohibited in certain places — Local laws and ordinances — Exceptions — Penalty.

(1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:

(a) The restricted access areas of a jail, or of a law enforcement facility, or any place used for the confinement of a person (i) arrested for, charged with, or convicted of an offense, (ii) held for extradition or as a material witness, or (iii) otherwise confined pursuant to an order of a court, except an order under chapter 13.32A or 13.34 RCW. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress or ingress open to the general public;

(b) Those areas in any building which are used in connection with court proceedings, including courtrooms, jury rooms, judge's chambers, offices and areas used to conduct court business, waiting areas, and corridors adjacent to areas used in connection with court proceedings. The restricted areas do not include common areas of ingress and egress to the building that is used in connection with court proceedings, when it is possible to protect court areas without restricting ingress and egress to the building. The restricted areas shall be the minimum necessary to fulfill the objective of this subsection (1)(b).

In addition, the local legislative authority shall provide either a stationary locked box sufficient in size for pistols and key to a weapon owner for weapon storage, or shall designate an official to receive weapons for safekeeping, during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building. The locked box or designated official shall be located within the same building used in connection with court proceedings. The local legislative authority shall be liable for any negligence causing damage to or loss of a weapon either placed in a locked box or left with an official during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building.

The local judicial authority shall designate and clearly mark those areas where weapons are prohibited, and shall post notices at each entrance to the building of the prohibition against weapons in the restricted areas;

(c) The restricted access areas of a public mental health facility certified by the department of social and health services for inpatient hospital care and state institutions for the care of the mentally ill, excluding those facilities solely for evaluation and treatment. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress and ingress open to the general public;

(d) That portion of an establishment classified by the state liquor control board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age; or

(e) The restricted access areas of a commercial service airport designated in the airport security plan approved by the federal transportation security administration, including passenger screening checkpoints at or beyond the point at which a passenger initiates the screening process. These areas do not include airport drives, general parking areas and walkways, and shops and areas of the terminal that are outside the screening checkpoints and that are normally open to unscreened passengers or visitors to the airport. Any restricted access area shall be clearly indicated by prominent signs indicating that firearms and other weapons are prohibited in the area.

(2) Cities, towns, counties, and other municipalities may enact laws and ordinances:

(a) Restricting the discharge of firearms in any portion of their respective jurisdictions where there is a reasonable likelihood that humans, domestic animals, or property will be jeopardized. Such laws and ordinances shall not abridge the right of the individual guaranteed by Article I, section 24 of the state Constitution to bear arms in defense of self or others; and

(b) Restricting the possession of firearms in any stadium or convention center, operated by a city, town, county, or other municipality, except that such restrictions shall not apply to:

(i) Any pistol in the possession of a person licensed under RCW 9.41.070 or exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060; or

(ii) Any showing, demonstration, or lecture involving the exhibition of firearms.

(3)(a) Cities, towns, and counties may enact ordinances restricting the areas in their respective jurisdictions in which firearms may be sold, but, except as provided in (b) of this subsection, a business selling firearms may not be treated more restrictively than other businesses located within the same zone. An ordinance requiring the cessation of business within a zone shall not have a shorter grandfather period for businesses selling firearms than for any other businesses within the zone.

(b) Cities, towns, and counties may restrict the location of a business selling firearms to not less than five hundred feet from primary or secondary school grounds, if the business has a storefront, has hours during which it is open for business, and posts advertisements or signs observable to passersby that firearms are available for sale. A business selling firearms that exists as of the date a restriction is enacted under this subsection (3)(b) shall be grandfathered according to existing law.

(4) Violations of local ordinances adopted under subsection (2) of this section must have the same penalty as provided for by state law.

(5) The perimeter of the premises of any specific location covered by subsection (1) of this section shall be posted at reasonable intervals to alert the public as to the existence of any law restricting the possession of firearms on the premises.

(6) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

(a) A person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments, while engaged in official duties;

(b) Law enforcement personnel, except that subsection (1)(b) of this section does apply to a law enforcement officer who is present at a courthouse building as a party to an action under chapter 10.14, 10.99, or 26.50 RCW, or an action under Title 26 RCW where any party has alleged the existence of domestic violence as defined in RCW 26.50.010; or

(c) Security personnel while engaged in official duties.

(7) Subsection (1)(a) of this section does not apply to a person licensed pursuant to RCW 9.41.070 who, upon entering the place or facility, directly and promptly proceeds to the administrator of the facility or the administrator's designee and obtains written permission to possess the firearm while on the premises or checks his or her firearm. The person may reclaim the firearms upon leaving but must immediately and directly depart from the place or facility.

(8) Subsection (1)(c) of this section does not apply to any administrator or employee of the facility or to any person who, upon entering the place or facility, directly and promptly proceeds to the administrator of the facility or the administrator's designee and obtains written permission to possess the firearm while on the premises.

(9) Subsection (1)(d) of this section does not apply to the proprietor of the premises or his or her employees while engaged in their employment.

(10) Any person violating subsection (1) of this section is guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

(11) "Weapon" as used in this section means any firearm, explosive as defined in RCW 70.74.010, or instrument or weapon listed in RCW 9.41.250.


[2004 c 116 § 1; 2004 c 16 § 1; 1994 sp.s. c 7 § 429; 1993 c 396 § 1; 1985 c 428 § 2.]


Notes:
Reviser's note: This section was amended by 2004 c 16 § 1 and by 2004 c 116 § 1, each without reference to the other. Both amendments are incorporated in the publication of this section under RCW 1.12.025(2). For rule of construction, see RCW 1.12.025(1).

Finding -- Intent -- Severability -- 1994 sp.s. c 7: See notes following RCW 43.70.540.


Effective date -- 1994 sp.s. c 7 §§ 401-410, 413-416, 418-437, and 439-460: See note following RCW 9.41.010.


Severability -- 1985 c 428: See note following RCW 9.41.290.
 
And the Law says....

hmmm...

So, basically, I have a letter from the DoL that says that I can open carry, and the law never disallows it, so I guess I can?

You are right though, it is stupid that you have to unload once you get into your car. I guess if the evil gun doesn't make you do something bad, the evil car will. I swear, when my technology really starts to overpower you it is hard to keep sane :rolleyes:

Now I just gotta find out what my town's rules are on it. I mean, the laws listed above keep talking about specific rights given to the townships, but then again, Wa. has pre-emption, doesn't it? So how does that work?

If I knew it wasn't a guaranteed trip with one of bellingham's finest I would totally start doing it. Hell, I think I would anyway, if I had the money to clear up the trouble once it happend. Maybe I am just making excuses for myself.

HG
 
Everyone needs to settle down. Everyone keeps forgetting in the legal discussion about RCW 9.41.270. It's been posted here multiple times, and it's the law that Clayton Cramer was talking about when the "open carry ban". It was never intended as such for the reasons Clayton noted. Getting the cops here in the Puget Sound, Spokane, and Vancouver/Clark County areas to understand that is the issue.

The bottom line for me, and most others who have seriously studied this matter, is that open carry in the context of outdoor recreation is permitted, but you are taking significant legal chances for prosecution under the above-cited statute if you carry in an urban or suburban environment.

Actually RCW 9.41.270 has no such exception for "outdoor recreation" in a similar manner as to your home or place of business, your interpretation of RCW 9.41.270 could still take effect if some anti-gun leftist extremist were out "being one with nature" out in a camping site sees your openly carried handgun even out in the middle of nowhere.

Considering how much research I've done on this issue, and the fact that my advisories to FishOrMan helped get a city ordinance overturned under 9.41.290, you'd think my statements would carry some weight.

I'm personally not open carrying all that much until an AG's opinion comes out. However, Bill Forth's statements are telling. In Washington State, the DOL-Firearms division has the same amount of "legal force" as the California DOJ's Firearms Division.

There is a concept of a defense of illegal conduct based on the statements of a government official. Any reasonable person can look at Bill Forth's statement, as head of the State firearms division, as relevant to the issue.

Unfortunately, I haven't had much time to deal with this issue like I want to. Been working (in a no carry zone, which I'll respect until a labor law overrides that rule, good luck on that one) pretty much Monday through Friday 9 to 5, so it doesn't leave much time throughout the day to discuss controversial issues with cops during lunch breaks and 15 minute breaks.

The issue here is training. The thing is, the idea that cops are enforcing this law in a manner it was never intended and threatening people with it is not coming from the Police Academies in this state. State Patrol has pretty much believed that open carry is completely legal, and the only other police academy in Washington is in Burien, and I've looked at some of the stuff that they train on firearms that are relevant to carry, not one mention of open carry being illegal at all.

This complicates things greatly because now we know that the issue is more on an individual PD/Sheriff's office level. Basically, in order to determine which PD/Sheriffs are offending, I have to contact the training division, ask some questions, and then file a PDA (Public Disclosure Act) request. In the three county area, I have to file PDA's with at least 25 different agencies. Do the math on the costs of it at least in terms of mailing or hand delivering it (mailing requires it to be sent certified just to make sure that I have a deliver date I can enforce against them later if they decide to play hardball and not follow the law).

Btw, Halfgone, can you PM me Bill Forth's email address?
 
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RCW 9.41.270 does not contain the 'outdoor recreation' exception, RCW 9.41.060 does. Given that RCW 9.41.060 explicitly provides that RCW 9.41.050 does not require carry with a CPL in the context of outdoor recreation, it should trump any prosecutions under RCW 9.41.270.

For those who think open carry does not result in prosecution, you are ignoring the two seminal case law interpretations of RCW 9.41.270 in Washington: State v. Workman, 90 Wd.2d. 443 (1978) and State v. Spencer, 75 Wn.App 118 (1994). These two cases dealt with the constitutionality and the elements necessary for conviction under RCW 9.41.270. Suffice it to say that the statutory language of "...that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons...." can be used to prosecute you for open carry. There have been many prosecutions under this statute, especially in the urban areas of western Washington.

And with all due regard to Mr. Forth, he is not a lawyer and does not provide legal opinions for the State of Washington as a program manager for a state agency. If someone were to contact the head of the D of L and ask if one can cite a program manager's opinion as a defense to a criminal prosecution, I suspect that Mr. Forth's opinion would be retracted. I happen to work with various state agencies frequently, and they are all pretty adamant that any legal opinions have to come from the AAG assigned to their office or agency.

For the original poster, I would strongly urge you to not run the risk of a firearms conviction and loss of your Washington CPL by relying upon anonymous Internet advice. There is no current applicable statutory and case law that explicitly allows open carry, except for some narrowly drawn exceptions. Open carrying in downtown Seattle, Tacoma or Spokane, among others, will rapidly draw unwelcome attention from the local law enforcement and probable arrest.
 
color me confused, but I have a question in regards to the following,

the statutory language of "...that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons...."

why hasn't anyone pursued this as being 'unconstitutionally vague'? Because I've seen more cases with more specific terms ruled that way.
 
The problem with open carry is in a nutshell the wording of RCW 9.41.270

RCW 9.41.270
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm — Unlawful carrying or handling — Penalty — Exceptions.


(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

(2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:

(a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;

(b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;

(c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

(d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or

(e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments.

[1994 sp.s. c 7 § 426; 1969 c 8 § 1.]

Notes:
Finding -- Intent -- Severability -- 1994 sp.s. c 7: See notes following RCW 43.70.540.

Effective date -- 1994 sp.s. c 7 §§ 401-410, 413-416, 418-437, and 439-460: See note following RCW 9.41.010.

Note the emphasis in section 1. While seeing a gun on the hip in rural areas will probably raise no alarm doing the same in Seattle will definitely result in your arrest and prosecution. I can see them piling brandishing on top of a charge under 9.41.270 in Seattle. All it takes is one soccer mom saying she was "alarmed" and your done. Until this is clarified, which the AG and legislature both seem to be unwilling to do, this will continue to be an issue. Take note of the fact that we have some screwy laws on the books here. For example, while it is legal to own a suppressor, put it on a weapon, carry it around like that, fondle it, etc., the instant you put a round through it you have committed a misdeameanor crime. Don't ya' love the logic of politicians.
 
Just because the holding in State v. Spencer 75 Wn App 118 (1994) directly speaks as to the constitutionality of RCW 9.41.270 and upholding a conviction for open carry, I post it here. It is in the public domain, so there are no copyright issues.

75 Wn. App. 118, STATE v. SPENCER

July 1994

[No. 32136-6-I. Division One. July 25, 1994.]

STATE v. SPENCER
THE STATE OF WASHINGTON, Respondent, v. RANDOLPH J. SPENCER, Petitioner.

[1] Statutes – Validity – Presumption – Burden of Proof – Degree of Proof. A statute is presumed to be constitutional. A party challenging the constitutionality of a statute has the burden of proving that it is unconstitutional beyond a reasonable doubt.

[2] Statutes – Construction – Constitutional Construction. If possible, a court will construe a statute so as to render it constitutional.

[3] Weapons – Possession – Right of Possession – Regulation – Police Power. The right to bear arms guaranteed by Const. art. 1, § 24 is subject to reasonable regulation by the State under its police power. The regulation must be reasonably necessary to protect the public safety, health, morals, and general welfare and must be substantially related to the legitimate ends sought.

[4] Criminal Law – Statutes – Vagueness – Areas of Uncertainty. The fact that there may be some areas of uncertainty in the application of a statutory definition of a crime does not render the statute unconstitutionally vague.

[5] Weapons – Intimidation With Weapon – Validity – Right To Bear Arms. The criminal prohibition against carrying or displaying particular types of weapons in a manner that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons (RCW 9.41.270(1)) does not unconstitutionally infringe on the right to bear arms (Const. art. 1, § 24).

[6] Criminal Law – Statutes – Vagueness – Test. A statutory definition of a crime is unconstitutionally vague in violation of due process only if it (1) fails to provide adequate notice to citizens of which conduct is prohibited or (2) fails to contain ascertainable standards to prevent arbitrary enforcement.

[7] Criminal Law – Statutes – Vagueness – Construction of Language. A criminal statute is not unconstitutionally vague if the challenged term or phrase can be made definite by a reasonable construction.

[8] Weapons – Intimidation With Weapon – Validity – Vagueness. For purposes of the criminal prohibition against carrying or displaying particular types of weapons in a manner that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons (RCW 9.41.270(1)), a reasonable person standard is incorporated into the phrase "warrants alarm" and the statute is not unconstitutionally vague.

[9] Criminal Law – Statutes – Vagueness – Particular Conduct – Within Constitutional Core. When a criminal defendant's conduct falls within a criminal statute's constitutional core, a court will not speculate as to the vagueness of the statute as applied to other conduct.

[10] Criminal Law – Statutes – Overbreadth – Conduct – Amount of Constitutionally Protected Conduct. A criminal prohibition that affects only behavior and not speech is not unconstitutionally overbroad unless its overbreadth is both real and substantial in relation to its plainly legitimate sweep.

[11] Weapons – Intimidation With Weapon – Validity – Overbreadth. RCW 9.41.270(1), which prohibits carrying or displaying particular types of weapons in a manner that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons, is not unconstitutionally overbroad.

Nature of Action: Prosecution for unlawfully displaying a weapon.

District Court: The King County District Court, No. K28362, Sue Freeborn, J. Pro Tem., entered a judgment of guilty on November 12, 1991.

Superior Court: The Superior Court for King County, No. 92-1-01433-1, Patricia H. Aitken, J., on December 29, 1992, affirmed the judgment.

Court of Appeals: Holding that the crime of unlawfully displaying a weapon does not unconstitutionally infringe on the right to bear arms and is neither unconstitutionally overbroad nor unconstitutionally vague as applied to the defendant's conduct, the court affirms the judgment.

Adam Shapiro of Washington Appellate Defender Association, for petitioner.

Norm Maleng, Prosecuting Attorney, and Roger S. Rogoff and Janet L. Capps, Deputies, for respondent.

Richard B. Sanders, amicus curiae.

COLEMAN, J. – Randolph J. Spencer was granted discretionary review of his conviction for one count of brandishing a weapon. He argues that (1) RCW 9.41.270 violates his right to bear arms under the Washington State Constitution, (2) the statute is unconstitutionally vague, and (3) the statute is unconstitutionally overbroad. We affirm.

On August 19, 1991, at approximately 10 p.m., Spencer was taking a walk with his dog. He carried his AK-47 semiautomatic rifle, with the clip attached, on his shoulder as he walked. «1»

«1» Spencer was walking in a residential area near South 260th Street and Pacific Highway South, in King County.

A passing motorist, Verrill Olsen, saw Spencer and noticed that he was "walking briskly and carrying a rifle". Olsen became concerned when he saw that the rifle had a clip attached to it. He approached some firefighters who were investigating a propane leak nearby and suggested that they call the police. Olsen then saw police officer Heather Wall and told her that a man was walking down the street with a "military rifle slung on his shoulder".

Several firefighters also observed Spencer walking with his rifle and became concerned. Eric Tomlinson saw Spencer walking "rather fast with his head down". Tomlinson saw the rifle and noticed that it had a clip in it. He became alarmed "ecause there was no obvious reason to have a weapon like that, given the surroundings". He also thought that the manner in which Spencer carried the rifle was threatening.

Officer Wall approached Spencer in her vehicle and noticed that he was carrying a rifle in "a hostile, assaultive type manner with the weapon ready". She also noticed that the rifle had a clip attached to it. Wall stopped her vehicle at a distance from Spencer and ordered him to put the gun down and walk toward her with his hands in the air. She then took him into custody, searched him, and found a .45-caliber automatic pistol under his jacket, as well as a valid concealed weapons permit.

Spencer was arrested and charged with unlawfully displaying a weapon, as prohibited by RCW 9.41.270. The District Court found him guilty, and the Superior Court affirmed the conviction. This court granted Spencer's motion for discretionary review.

We initially consider whether RCW 9.41.270 unconstitutionally restricts the right to bear arms under the Washington State Constitution.

[1, 2] Former RCW 9.41.270(1) provides, in part:

It shall be unlawful for anyone to carry, exhibit, display or draw any firearm . . . in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

A statute is presumed constitutional, and the party challenging it has the burden of proving that it is unconstitutional beyond a reasonable doubt. State v. Maciolek, 101 Wn.2d 259, 263, 676 P.2d 996 (1984) (citing State v. Dixon, 78 Wn.2d 796, 479 P.2d 931 (1971); State v. Rhodes, 92 Wn.2d 755, 600 P.2d 1264 (1979)). If possible, a court will construe a statute so as to render it constitutional. State v. Luther, 65 Wn. App. 424, 427, 830 P.2d 674 (1992) (citing State v. Reyes, 104 Wn.2d 35, 41, 700 P.2d 1155 (1985)).

[3] Article 1, section 24 of the Washington Constitution provides:

The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men. «2»

«2» Spencer correctly argues that an analysis under the criteria stated in State v. Gunwall, 106 Wn.2d 54, 720 P.2d 808, 76 A.L.R.4th 517 (1986) demonstrates that the Washington Constitution grants a broader right to bear arms than the United States Constitution, which provides: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." U.S. Const. amend. 2; see State v. Rupe, 101 Wn.2d 664, 706, 683 P.2d 571 (1984) (state provision is facially broader than federal provision). Therefore, this case will be analyzed under the Washington Constitution.

Although this provision is stated in absolute terms, the right to bear arms is subject to reasonable regulation by the State under its police power. State v. Rupe, 101 Wn.2d 664, 707 n.9, 683 P.2d 571 (1984). However, the regulation must be reasonably necessary to protect the public safety, health, morals, and general welfare and must be substantially related to the legitimate ends sought. Second Amendment Found. v. Renton, 35 Wn. App. 583, 586, 668 P.2d 596 (1983) (citing Homes Unlimited, Inc. v. Seattle, 90 Wn.2d 154, 158, 579 P.2d 1331 (1978)).

In Second Amendment Found., the appellants challenged a provision in the Renton Municipal Code which prohibited the carrying of firearms in places where alcoholic beverages are dispensed by the drink. The court upheld the ordinance, concluding that it was narrowly drawn because it prevented the carrying of firearms only in bars. «3»

«3» The ordinance contained an exception for restaurants that served alcoholic beverages.

In addition, the court reasoned, the statute promoted public safety by reducing the possibility of armed conflict between people under the influence of alcohol. Thus, the court upheld the ordinance, concluding that the public's interest in safety outweighed the individual's right to bear arms in public places where liquor is served. Second Amendment Found., at 586-87.

Spencer attempts to distinguish Second Amendment Found. by arguing that the statute in this case constitutes an effective ban on the right to bear arms in self-defense from past or future aggression. He also argues that the statute here is overly broad because it is unclear which weapons will cause alarm. Thus, he argues, people will decide not to carry any weapon for fear of prosecution, and the statute will have an undue chilling effect on the constitutional right to bear arms. Furthermore, he argues, the statute does not promote public safety because "preventing alarm" is an overly ambiguous objective.

Part Two continued in the next post
 
Part Two of the Spencer decision continues here:

[4, 5] We do not find these arguments persuasive. First, the statute does not prevent a person from carrying weapons in self-defense. Weapons may be carried in response to "presently threatened unlawful force by another". RCW 9.41.270(3)(c). If there is no present threat, weapons must be carried in a manner that does not warrant alarm in others. The statute does not prohibit the ownership of weapons, and it limits the possession of certain weapons only when they are carried or displayed in a manner and under circumstances that warrant alarm. Thus, for example, the statute does not prohibit an individual from legally carrying a concealed weapon such as the .45-caliber pistol Spencer carried under his jacket. We conclude that the statute's restriction on an individual's right to bear arms in self-defense is minimal. The statute is narrowly drawn and demonstrates the Legislature's awareness of and concern with preserving the rights of the individual.

In addition, the statute does not have an undue chilling effect on the right to bear arms. As the Superior Court found, the statute only prohibits the carrying or displaying of weapons when objective circumstances would warrant alarm in a reasonable person. «4»

«4» These circumstances may include, as in the present case, the fact that the weapon is being carried in a residential neighborhood, the time of day, the urban environment, the manner in which the weapon is carried, the size and type of weapon, and the fact that the weapon has a clip visibly attached.

Thus, the restriction applies only in a limited number of situations. Furthermore, the prohibition is not so vague that it would prevent persons of common intelligence from ever carrying a weapon on the street. In the vast majority of situations, a person of common intelligence would be able to ascertain when the carrying of a particular weapon would reasonably warrant alarm in others. Although some areas of uncertainty may exist, these potential "gray areas" of the statute are small and do not render it unconstitutional. Cf. Maciolek, at 265 (possible areas of disagreement do not render statute unconstitutionally vague). «5»

«5» In this regard, we note that the present case, in which the Defendant was carrying a visibly loaded AK-47 rifle in an assaultive manner at night in a residential area, does not fall anywhere near a potential "gray area" in the statute.

Finally, contrary to Spencer's argument, the statute does promote public welfare and safety. People have a strong interest in being able to use public areas without fearing for their lives. The statute protects this interest by requiring people who carry weapons to do so in a manner that will not warrant alarm. Therefore, we conclude that the statute is reasonably necessary and substantially promotes the public welfare.

To summarize, we have determined that the statute minimally restricts the rights of the individual, it is narrowly drawn, and it promotes a substantial public interest. This public interest in security, and in having a sense of security, outweighs the individual's interest in carrying weapons under circumstances that warrant alarm in others. For these reasons, we hold that the restriction in RCW 9.41.270 on the right to bear arms is not unconstitutional.

We next determine whether RCW 9.41.270 is unconstitutionally vague as applied to Spencer's conduct.

[6] The text of former RCW 9.41. 270 is set forth, in part, supra. A statute is unconstitutionally vague and violates due process if it (1) fails to provide adequate notice to citizens of which conduct is prohibited or (2) fails to contain ascertainable standards to prevent arbitrary enforcement. State v. Maciolek, 101 Wn.2d 259, 264, 676 P.2d 996 (1984) (quoting State v. Foster, 91 Wn.2d 466, 474, 589 P.2d 789 (1979)). A statute that is not vague on its face may nonetheless be vague as applied to conduct that falls outside the statute's "constitutional core". Maciolek, at 266 (citing Bellevue v. Miller, 85 Wn.2d 539, 541, 536 P.2d 603 (1975)).

In Maciolek, three petitioners challenged RCW 9.41.270, arguing that it was unconstitutionally vague. In one case, when the petitioner's doctor refused to give him a prescription for Percodan, the petitioner became angry and pulled back his jacket, revealing a handgun. The doctor was frightened and immediately wrote the prescription. In another case, the petitioner, a juvenile, fired his BB gun at two children and took one of their bicycles. In the third case, the petitioner, a juvenile, got into an argument with a woman and chased her with a knife. Maciolek, at 261-62. The petitioners argued that the statute was unconstitutionally vague because it contained an unclear definition of weapons and an unclear description of the conduct prohibited. Maciolek, at 264.

The Supreme Court rejected these arguments and held that the statute was not unconstitutionally vague. Maciolek, at 269. The court reasoned that the average person would know that the statute prohibited using a weapon to threaten another. Maciolek, at 265. In addition, the court concluded that the statute was directed at identifiable criminal conduct, had a reasonably definite focus, and did not encourage arbitrary enforcement. Maciolek, at 268-69. Furthermore, the court held, the statute was not vague as applied because the petitioners' conduct fell within the statute's constitutional core. Maciolek, at 266.

Spencer argues that this case is distinguishable from Maciolek because, unlike the petitioners in that case, he did not intend to threaten anyone and was convicted under a different portion of the statute. Spencer is correct that the Maciolek holding does not apply to this case. However, the court in Maciolek did address the "warrants alarm" portion of the statute in a footnote and essentially rejected Spencer's claim. See Maciolek, at 268 n.3.

In the footnote, the Maciolek court stated that because the term "warrants alarm" was qualified by specific weapons, it was sufficiently definite to prevent ad hoc determinations of criminality. The court contrasted the present statute with the ordinance in Bellevue v. Miller, supra, which prohibited wandering or prowling that warrants alarm for the safety of persons or property. The court reasoned that the "warrants alarm" portion of the Miller statute was qualified only by the words "wandering or prowling", both of which are inherently vague. Thus, the court concluded, because the specification of weapons in the present statute gives it a narrow scope, it is distinguishable from the statute in Miller and is not unconstitutionally vague. «6»

«6» Furthermore, the court reasoned, even if the phrase "warrants alarm" in the present statute could be considered vague, it can be interpreted narrowly for purposes of upholding the statute. The court then stated:

If a weapon is displayed in a manner, under circumstances and at a time and place so that it poses a threat to another person, such a display would warrant alarm for the safety of another. Thus, narrowly construing the phrase to apply to only conduct that poses a threat to others gives the phrase a narrow and definite focus and saves it from vagueness.

Maciolek, at 268 n.3.

[7] Spencer urges this court not to follow the reasoning in Maciolek because it is only dicta. He also urges this court to reject the Superior Court's view that RCW 9.41.270 sets a "reasonable person" standard for determining whether the statute has been violated. However, the general rule is that if a term or phrase in a statute can be made definite by a reasonable construction, the court must narrowly construe it and uphold the statute. Maciolek, at 268 n.3 (citing State v. Martinez, 85 Wn.2d 671, 538 P.2d 521 (1975), overruled on other grounds by State v. Smith, 93 Wn.2d 329, 610 P.2d 869, cert. denied, 449 U.S. 873 (1980)).

[8] We agree with the Supreme Court that the weapons limitation gives the statute a sufficiently narrow scope. In addition, we adopt the Superior Court's conclusion that a reasonable person standard is incorporated into the phrase "warrants alarm". When viewed with these two limitations in mind, it is clear that the statute is sufficiently definite to (1) provide defendants with adequate notice of prohibited conduct and (2) provide adequate enforcement standards. This construction is reasonable and in accord with the plain language of the statute. «7»

«7» As the State points out, the Legislature's use of the word "warrants" in the statute implies that there must be a sufficient objective basis for the alarm, i.e., circumstances must be such that a reasonable person would be alarmed.

[9] Having determined that the "warrants alarm" portion of the statute is not vague, the only remaining question is whether Spencer's conduct falls within the statute's constitutional core. Clearly, it does. Any reasonable person would feel alarmed upon seeing, on a residential street at night, a man carrying a visibly loaded AK-47 assault rifle in an assaultive manner. This alarm would be intensified if the man were walking briskly with his head down and avoiding eye contact with passers-by, as Spencer was doing. Furthermore, our conclusion that Spencer's conduct warranted alarm is supported by the kinds of people who were alarmed in this case, including several firefighters, a police officer, and a passing motorist.

We also conclude that a person of common intelligence would realize that carrying an assault rifle under such circumstances and in such a manner would warrant alarm in others. Whether different circumstances would warrant alarm is a question that must be left open; here, however, Spencer's conduct falls squarely within the core of the statute. Therefore, we reject Spencer's argument that the statute is unconstitutionally vague.

[10] Finally, we decide whether RCW 9.41.270 is overbroad. In the free speech context, a statute is overbroad if its prohibitions reach constitutionally protected free speech activities. Seattle v. Huff, 111 Wn.2d 923, 925, 767 P.2d 572 (1989). If a statute regulates behavior, as opposed to pure speech, it will not be overturned unless the overbreadth is "'both real and substantial in relation to the ordinance's plainly legitimate sweep.'" Seattle v. Webster, 115 Wn.2d 635, 641, 802 P.2d 1333, 7 A.L.R.5th 1100 (1990) (quoting Seattle v. Eze, 111 Wn.2d 22, 31, 759 P.2d 366, 78 A.L.R.4th 1115 (1988)), cert. denied, 500 U.S. 908 (1991).

[11] Spencer argues that RCW 9.41.270 improperly narrows an individual's right to bear arms in self-defense. However, as discussed, supra, we have concluded that the statute's restriction on self-defense is minimal because (1) weapons may be carried in response to "presently threatened unlawful force by another" and (2) if there is no present threat, weapons may be carried in a manner that does not warrant alarm in others. We have further determined that the statute is narrowly drawn to promote a substantial public interest and that the statute's language demonstrates the Legislature's concern with preserving the individual's right to bear arms in self-defense. For these reasons, we reject Spencer's claim that the statute is unconstitutionally overbroad.

The judgment and sentence are affirmed.

PEKELIS, A.C.J., and SCHOLFIELD, J., concur.
 
So, MillCreek, cutting to the chase it appears what the case you cited means is that there's a difference between having a hangun in a holster on your waist, and walking around "in an assaultive manner" with an AK-47 (with clip (sic) attached) over your shoulder.

Does that about sum it up?
 
Bill Forth, Program manager
Firearms Unit
Public Protection Services Section
Business and Professions division
Department of Licensing

Why would you question a person who is in charge of licensing about conduct which requires no license?
 
That is not how I interpret the case, no. The court interpreted RCW 9.41.270 as open carrying a weapon in a fashion that manifests alarm in another is not protected under the state Constitution as it confers the right to bear arms. Nowhere in the opinion did the court parse the concept of an assault rifle being carried vs. a holstered handgun. So unfortunately, the ambiguity remains as to "the statute only prohibits the carrying or displaying of weapons when objective circumstances would warrant alarm in a reasonable person".

How you, I or the person in the next county would interpret those 'objective circumstances as a reasonable person' may be very different than others. It is that very ambiguity and interpretation that causes trouble to this day for the concept of open carry in Washington state. Suffice it to say that it is this opinion that many law enforcement agencies in Washington state use as the grounds of arrest and prosecution under RCW 9.41.270 if anyone makes a complaint about open carry.

If you are aware of any appellate case law that has established a fact pattern of open carrying a holstered handgun as a defense to prosecution under RCW 9.41.270, I would very much appreciate a citation to the case.
 
RCW 9.41.270 does not contain the 'outdoor recreation' exception, RCW 9.41.060 does. Given that RCW 9.41.060 explicitly provides that RCW 9.41.050 does not require carry with a CPL in the context of outdoor recreation, it should trump any prosecutions under RCW 9.41.270.

How so? All I see 9.41.060 saying is that you don't need a CPL to carry a concealed handgun during outdoor recreation activity or loaded in a car. RCW 9.41.060 addresses exemptions to the prohibitions in RCW 9.41.050. It does not address in any way RCW 9.41.270 in the manner that you suggest.

Who's giving bad legal information here? I'm telling you that under your interpretation of RCW 9.41.270, any anti-gun leftist extremist in a remote area can call the cops and have you arrested for violating RCW 9.41.270.

As for the Spencer case, it's not my fault personally that he had a bad lawyer arguing his case. I can pretty much guarantee that if Spencer's lawyer actually had the information we had today on the origins of RCW 9.41.270, then he may have had a shot at either taking down the statute, or making it inapplicable to Spencer's case. That didn't happen.

I might also add that the appellete courts in King County have been overruled multiple times on the issue of duty to retreat by the state Supreme Court. Despite clear rulings from the State Supreme Court that there is no duty to retreat, the appellate courts in King County keep trying to add it on to convict a person for not retreating and hopes the State Supreme Court won't take the case and overturn it so that they have some sort of precedent requiring duty to retreat. The urban county prosecutors hate duty to retreat, but are hamstrung by several state laws that state if you prosecute someone and they are innocent of the crime due to self defense, the state has to pay your lost wages, income, and attorney's fees. Of course, prosecutors with an agenda won't care about your taxpayer dollars.

MillCreek, please read Clayton Cramer's writeup that Jim posted. This law was not in any way shape or form intended to be a gun control law. It was meant to target political radicals who they thought were on their way to the state house and were invading schools with rifles in hand.

Do you know why the law was not considered a gun control law? Due to the State Consiitution, which does not in any way protect the RKBA in so far as organizing and employing an armed body of men. What certainly would an armed body of men? The Black Panthers, who's largest chapter outside of California was, guess where, Seattle, Washington.

I can guarantee you that if the Legislator's of that day had thought that this law would be interpreted as an open carry ban anywhere in the state, they would have not voted for this law. They stripped out a portion of the bill that would have effected persons possessing guns near and in public buildings in general because of their concerns about law abiding gun owners who were simply peacibly open carrying.

No judge in this state has ever been confronted with the Legislative History of this law. Not by Workman, not by Spencer, not by Hartney (who was charged under the city version of this law that was more restrictive than the state law, which was repealed by the state's preemption statute).
 
Mr. Wilson, philosophically, I do not disagree with much of what you say. I was aware of the earlier work examining the legislative history and presumed intent behind RCW 9.41.270. I guess that where we may part ways is my feeling that the analysis and legislative history is kind of a moot point at this time, given that the Legislature has so far failed to change the law, and no appellate court has attempted to derive the legislative intent or history in any of the few appellate decisions on the open carry aspect of RCW 9.41.270. So it is an interesting academic discussion, but thus far it has failed to yield tangible results in terms of clarifying the open carry question in favor of open carry. Perhaps with the work of staunch advocates such as yourself and others, this may change in the future. I note that Mr. Saunders filed an amicus brief in the Spencer case, and I assume that was at the behest of the RKBA organizations. Given that Justice Saunders is currently on our state Supreme Court, one wonders if the current judicial climate would be favorable to us.

My intent in posting to this thread was to explain the rationale behind my thought processes in foregoing open carry due to my belief that it is currently considered illegal in Washington by most of the people who enforce and prosecute the criminal code. Others may read the statutory and case law and come to completely different conclusions. I am the first to admit that I am no one's lawyer but my own, and my area of professional expertise is healthcare law, not RKBA issues, which are merely a hobby for me.

I have very much enjoyed reading the posts in this thread, and I would love to be convinced that I am in error in the legality of open carry. To do so to my satisfaction is going to require an unambiguous holding in the case law or a change in the statutory law that explicitly allows open carry of a holstered handgun. Anything less merely continues the current state of ambiguity which can be interpreted to our detriment.
 
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