Open Carry in Washington State

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UPDATE: 4th of July, 2006

So, I haven't OC'ed here yet, but I just talked to a cop in Bellingham (a starbucks) and this is basically how it went down:

ME: I was reading RCW 9 and 16 the other day and had some questions so I emailed the DoL and they told me that it was legal to openly carry in WA.

Cop: Open Carry? What's that?

M: Openly carry a handgun, like on your hip, w/o a CPL. This was news to me, so I was wondering what your response would be if, say you walked into a starbucks and someone was wearing a handgun on their hip, just minding their own business.

C: oh, you're going to get a talking to, possibly some force (he says as he touches the butt of his Glock). I'm gonna want to make sure that you aren't touching the gun, that you aren't crazy or something.

M: So, in a sense, I could beat the rap, but not the ride? I'll still get hauled downtown.

C: No, (rolls eyes). You won't get arrested. I mean it's legal but normal people don't do that. I mean, you don't see people walking around with compound bows down the street or walking around with a sword out. Perfectly legal to do that, but it's just not something normal people do. You openly carry a handgun in Bellingham and you will get contacted by the police and there will be a report written up.

M: Thank you officer that's all I wanted to know.

That whole, "Normal people don't do that" thing kinda bugs me (to put it lightly).
 
C: oh, you're going to get a talking to, possibly some force (he says as he touches the butt of his Glock). I'm gonna want to make sure that you aren't touching the gun, that you aren't crazy or something.

I wonder what the idiot would say upon my retort of "and I'm not supposed to think YOU are crazy after 'touching' your gun?
 
... work with various state agencies frequently, and they are all pretty adamant that any legal opinions have to come from the AAG assigned to their office or agency.

True. Been there, done that. :D

The best way to have the AG address this issue in an AG Opinion is to have a sympathetic legislator request it. If you know of one I strongly suggest carefully framing the question for him/her before hand.
 
WooHoo.

I OC'ed today in WA. Had it IWB at 4:30. It was kinda a wussy run. All I did was move some boxes from my old place to my knew place, but it does involve moving things on main street. So when I was getting stuff from my trunk, everyone (who has paying attention) could see as they drove past. I think once when I was getting to my trunk from my driver's side the guy driving past saw, because when I turned to get into the trunk he was totally staring at me. I smiled and waved and he returned both. One thing I noticed was that it made me hyper sensitive of my surroundings. I noticed everything that I normally would have been oblivious to, like the two cops just across the street who were going in and out of a building and the guy on the cell phone 25 feet from my car. These are things I would have 'seen' but not noticed, if you get my drift.

All in all it was very educational.

I went to work after that so I obviously am not carrying now, but I was stoked. Freedom really is a muscle you have to get used to exercising.

My nervousness was huge at the beginning and after a while it started to diminish.

Anyways. I just thought I would share with y'all.

HG

P.S. I think the final impetus for me to do it was that I was lying in my bed and I thought to myself how cool it would be if my kids (gotta find a girl first, but that doesn't keep me from getting ahead of myself ) had the freedom to open carry and it wouldn't seem like a taboo. If they can just be free to be left alone. And then I realized that if I want that to happen, I gotta start working on it now. It's up to me (and you) to make it normal.
 
Very informative discussion here. Thank you Lonnie and Mill Creek both for your contributions. I have to agree the RCW as written is vague to say the least. The intrepretation of an "ordinary" person seems to vary in the extreme. An ordinary person in Seattle would, and probably is, considered to be a total moon bat in say Omak. The court has set the standard very low hence the whole issue. I have to agree with Mill Creek on not going OC as a general rule.

Here's the issue in a nutshell. I was way up NF 49 this past weekend and had pulled my shirt off to enjoy the sun and for comfort. The wife and I were playing with our dogs in a waterfall next to the road. My XD was IWB on my right side. A vehicle drove by and stopped. I turned to wave to them and the driver started to wave and then got all big-eyed and quickly drove off. They past back by headed in the other direction in just a few minutes at warp 9. This was basically North of Sloan Peak so about 12 miles down the road. We continued on with our day. As we were passing back into Darrington a Sno County deputy who told me he'd been waiting for us flagged us down just outside town on the loop road.

Nice guy, asked me if I were armed and when I answered affirmative asked for my permit. We had a nice chat about the weather, my XD and idiots in general. Told me I was NOT in any trouble from him but that some of his fellow officers would have arrested me for brandishing. Suggested I keep my shirt on in the future or at least pull my undershirt over my pistol. Total time out of our day was about 20 minutes, mostly due to the wife getting out also and us just standing around talking and enjoying the sun. It took TWO hours our of the deputies day waiting for us. He said he had no choice since it was a "man with a gun" call. Never asked my name, wrote anything down and his glance at the CPL seemed to be more to look at the expiration date than anything. He did say this would have gone very badly for me in King County. Take this for what you will.
 
Wow, XD-fan, what an interesting story. I am at least heartened by the fact that one of my home county deputies handled the situation so appropriately. I go hiking in that very area frequently and have likely driven by that very waterfall.
 
It amazes me how people freak out at the sight of a holstered pistol. In this case while playing with dogs and a female companion in the open. :uhoh: Common sense just flies out the window. :rolleyes: Not sneaking around in the bushes with a gun in hand. Not Mexican carry while furtively exchanging a small package for cash. Just minding your own business ...

Dave Workman, welcome to THR!
 
"Having determined that the "warrants alarm" portion of the statute is not vague, the only remaining question is whether Spencer's conduct falls within the statute's constitutional core. Clearly, it does. Any reasonable person would feel alarmed upon seeing, on a residential street at night, a man carrying a visibly loaded AK-47 assault rifle in an assaultive manner. This alarm would be intensified if the man were walking briskly with his head down and avoiding eye contact with passers-by, as Spencer was doing."

I just do not see how this applies to a holstered .45 pistol.

In fact, the court actually said that Spencer's concealed .45 was not a violation of the statute. I think it would be the same for an openly carried gun, otherwise there are a lot of police officers who are gonna be in big trouble (or are they exempt?).
 
Not a way i would seek my thrills...unfortunately the law, regardless of finely worded interpretation, doesn't allow for panicky people beseiging the local bobbies with "man with gun" reports. And the responding officer will be of unknown temperament and excitablity. It could go swimmingly as in XD's case or it might all go terribly pear shaped rather quickly.
Although you are in the right, I imagine the novelty of getting stopped or/and hauled off will soon wear thin....
 
In fact, the court actually said that Spencer's concealed .45 was not a violation of the statute. I think it would be the same for an openly carried gun, otherwise there are a lot of police officers who are gonna be in big trouble (or are they exempt?).

I will address this issue fully later. In a nutshell, yes LEO's are exempt. Armed Security officers are not.
 
Well, has it happened? I mean, we have the case MillCreek provided involving a man carrying an AK-47 in an assaultive manner, almost exaclty what the law appears to be targeting, but do we have any case involving a holstered pistol? :confused:

If not, all this whiny panic :eek: :what: means nothing.

This law is older than many of the posters here. :rolleyes: Either it is being enforced against people open carrying pistols or it is not.

Cops telling you what they "like" or do "not like" or what they think is "normal" has nothing to do with the law.
 
Lonnie

"I will address this issue fully later."

I look forward to it. Something just seems terribly wrong with this entire situation.
 
Having read all of the relatively few Washington state appellate cases related to the carry provisions of RCW 9.41.070, I can tell you that there are none in which the fact pattern relates to open carry of a holstered pistol. So there is no guidance from the courts on this issue. Thus the ongoing ambiguity. Since there is no clear case or statutory law on this, Washingtonians are still subject to arrest and prosecution for open carry of a holstered pistol, depending on the discretion of the LEO with whom they come into contact with.
 
Henry Bowman, Paul Bk:

Thanks for the welcome. Someone earlier had used my name in this thread, so here I am. I'll just browse this thread for a while, being the only one here who has written a book on the subject of Washington gun laws. All very interesting.
 
I believe I explained this on OpenCarry.org, but I'll explain it here for everyone's perusal. The source of this bill was back in 1967 when the California Legislature was invaded by members of the Black Panthers. This caused Oregon and Washington to react to it by passing laws at their earliest possible opportunity.

Those laws are codified in RCW 9.41.270 and ORS 166.370(1) and 166.370(3).

I don't have the history of Oregon's bill (I need to go down to the archives in Salem and pull it up), but they probably follow along the lines of similar, except that Oregon's law was locational and Washington's law was intimidative.

http://www.claytoncramer.com/PopularMagazines/WashingtonOpenCarryBan.html

The "two acquaintences" of his was myself and Jim March (Jim resided up here because he was working for BBV). We actually went down to Olympia and sat in the archives room for almost 5 hours, pouring through every piece of documentation we could get on RCW 9.41.270. Clayton's work was good, but it didn't go into huge amount of detail over the bickering that occured back in 1969 and the actual wording of the language.

First, the Black Panthers as an intimidative force across the country. California passed the Mulford Act due to their actions. And guess which was the first Panthers chapter outside of California? You guessed it, Seattle. One of the leaders of the Panthers movement up here in Washington is now running on the Green Party nomination for US Senator, Aaron Dixon.

There also was a local (to Seattle area) invasion, too. of Rainier Beach High School. You can read more about it here. This occured in 1968, and was one of the impetus besides the California invasion. in fact, the Rainier Beach incident may have actually caused them to go forward with the drafting of the bill.

Now, RCW 9.41.270 started up in life as HB123. Here is a copy of the bill....

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to willfully carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

(2) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife, or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or other apparently dangerous weapon while on the premesis of any public building or on any public property without within 500 feet of any public building. For the purposes of this section, the term "public building" shall mean any building owned by the state or any political subdivision thereof, other than an apartment building or a building that is used to provide housing for others.
(3) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) or (2) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor.
(4) Subsection (1) or (2)of this act shall not apply to or affect the following:

(a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;
(b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;
(c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;
(d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony;
(e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments; or
(f) Any person carrying a firearm who is licensed under any state or federal law to do so.

---

Lonnie here again. I highlighted the parts that were deleted out of the bill at the end. Now as you can see, the bill was both a locational ban and a intimidative ban at first. However, it exempted ALL persons who were licensed to carry under any state or federal law.

The House Judiciary committee were the primary ones who stripped out the provisions here as stated, with the exception of "willfully" being taken out (that was removed by state Senate amendment).

Someone made a comment during the House debate that they originally voted against the bill thinking that it was a "gun control law". In 1969, it would seem that the idea of banning peacible open carrying of handguns by those who were not involved in the panthers was unthinkable, even in Seattle. They wanted this law to go after the Panthers alone.

Ask yourselves this question: Why would the Legislature even propose both an intimidation ban and a locational ban in the first place? If carrying a handgun openly is intimidating by itself, why even take the extra step and ban open carry within public buildings and public property within 500 feet. The locational ban did not require a factor of intimidation. In fact, they stated that if you were licensed to do so, you could carry despite both the first and second subsection.

The "exceptions" in the law were left in (for the locational bans primarily) due to the Legislature being rushed and not paying attention, due to the fact that they had machine gun nests outside of the Legislature thinking that the Panthers were going to storm in with guns by the thousands. The law took effect immediately. A few Panthers did go and protest outside of the Capitol on the steps after the nests left, they did have their rifles with them, yet they were not arrested or charged even though RCW 9.41.270 went into effect that day. You can see the photos here.

Also, read Article 1, Section 24 of the state constitution. It states:

The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this Section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.

The Black Panthers certainly were an organized, armed body of men.

The source of this bullcrap that open carry is banned entirely, or open carry is banned if someone calls the cops and is alarmed, does come from certain sources, and not from others.

They do not come from the state's two police academies, and there's only two in Washington, the State Patrol Academy (WSP officers only) in Shelton, and the WSCJTC. I have spoken with both of their training divisions, and neither of them have any sort of material saying open carry is illegal, only concealed carry on foot being illegal without a license and the loaded carry of a pistol being illegal in a vehicle without a license.

Another problem is still of officers still think the case and carry law is still in effect (unlike the actual case and carry law memo sent out, the repeal memo was rather small and easily overlooked). This was was in effect, again, between 1994 and 1997.

Yet another problem is the addition of this language to RCW 9.41.270:

If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

I've heard some officers state that this law means "the state has demanded that you conceal your handgun or you lose your license". However, what is not shown by this law is that this exact language was added on to other RCW's (specifically RCW 9.41.280, the school carry law) by the same Violence Prevention Act that added it to 270. The Legislature here was not trying to tell us that they wanted open carry banned by this language in 1994. They were already doing that with the case and carry law, which was repealed in 1997 due to the efforts of Senator Hargrove with SB5326. The rest of the Violence Prevention Act of 1994 remained in effect.

The problem here is not with the academies, the problem here is individual officers and departments being a bunch of :cuss: :cuss: and letting their own personal prejudices into their work, or hearing advice from senior officers who are saying this without verifying that actual law, or the history of said law. Folks, there are officers in the SEATTLE PD believe that open carry is legal. The problem is getting the departments training divisions on the same ballpark so that EVERYONE knows about it, along with the 911 operators and so on.
 
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assaultive manner?

One part that is very unclear to me that hasn't been mentioned yet is how they're describing that he was walking in "an assaultive manner". Several witness statements said that the rifle was slung, with the mag attached. He was "walking briskly, with his head down and not making eye contact".

Would a reasonable person think that someone "walking briskly, with his head down and not making eye contact" is walking in an assaultive manner, or did something change in how the rifle was being carried?

Because the reasoning that the court used specifically mentioned all of the above I would presume (perhaps dangerously) that if you saunter down the road and make eye contact with those around you that this is not "an assaultive manner"?

Furthermore, if the court rules that their interpretation of the law will not have a chilling effect or will not be too broadly applied, but then _does_ have the chilling effect or is being too broadly applied by LE, is there grounds to revisit the ruling?
 
When I lived in WA, I did open carry on occasion, particularly when I was in more rural areas or hiking. When living in Tacoma/Seattle, I never open carried. Open carry in Puyallup had the effect of people walking up, introducing themselves and striking up friendly conversations. I used to open carry when walking into the Marksman in Puyallup where there is a Pierce Co. Sheriff substation and would often engage the deputies in a viariety of conversations about the pistols on our hips. Mike
 
Furthermore, if the court rules that their interpretation of the law will not have a chilling effect or will not be too broadly applied, but then _does_ have the chilling effect or is being too broadly applied by LE, is there grounds to revisit the ruling?

Not unless there's an arrest or full tilt harassment of an open carrier, or a trial. This isn't going to be resolved by court action, but training with the PD's, the Sheriffs, and the 911 operators and dispatchers. In Virginia, VCDL deals with this kind of crap all the time, and had to spend a LOT of time. Even after 2 years of open carry being legal statewide, they still have certain jurisdictions harassing people and still make phone calls.

Simply enough: I don't want to get hassled, harassed, or thrown in a jail cell. I'm not going to be stupid like Rick Stanley (I've been compared to him due to my advocacy of open carry in WA state, though nothing can be further from the truth) and try to force a confrontation via an arrest and prosecution/defense.
 
When I lived in WA, I did open carry on occasion, particularly when I was in more rural areas or hiking. When living in Tacoma/Seattle, I never open carried. Open carry in Puyallup had the effect of people walking up, introducing themselves and striking up friendly conversations. I used to open carry when walking into the Marksman in Puyallup where there is a Pierce Co. Sheriff substation and would often engage the deputies in a viariety of conversations about the pistols on our hips. Mike

Pierce County Sheriffs are not a problem jurisdiction as I've seen. They're very aware that open carry is legal. I cannot say the same for Fife or Tacoma yet because I haven't encountered them yet or struck up conversations as of yet.
 
Leaving aside for a moment the debate as to the legality of open carry in Washington, LEO discretion in arrest or the legislative history, I have a more basic question. I have been carrying in Washington since I turned 21 and obtained my first CCW permit. That was back in the early 80's. When I carry, I do so solely as a self-defense measure.

Other than as some sort of political statement, why would I want to open carry? Am I missing some sort of significant tactical advantage by not doing so? I am just not seeing the practical advantages to me of open carry. I can certainly see some disadvantages in appearing as a 'shoot me first' target opportunity.

So if I am overlooking a practical benefit to open carry, please educate me. Please note that I am drawing a distinction as to a practical benefit vs. using this as a political issue to advance the cause of RKBA. That is a separate discussion, in my opinion.
 
Millcreek said:
Leaving aside for a moment the debate as to the legality of open carry in Washington, LEO discretion in arrest or the legislative history, I have a more basic question. I have been carrying in Washington since I turned 21 and obtained my first CCW permit. That was back in the early 80's. When I carry, I do so solely as a self-defense measure.

Other than as some sort of political statement, why would I want to open carry? Am I missing some sort of significant tactical advantage by not doing so? I am just not seeing the practical advantages to me of open carry. I can certainly see some disadvantages in appearing as a 'shoot me first' target opportunity.

So if I am overlooking a practical benefit to open carry, please educate me. Please note that I am drawing a distinction as to a practical benefit vs. using this as a political issue to advance the cause of RKBA. That is a separate discussion, in my opinion.
Leaving out all the 'tactical advantage' talk, open carry isn't any different than concealed carry. It's a personal preference issue. I would much rather open carry than concealed carry, especially in Texas heat. As far as political statements go, carrying concealed makes no statement at all, in fact, I think it's a step backwards from RKBA because I feel you are pandering to the panty wetters by hiding your EBG.
 
Other than as some sort of political statement, why would I want to open carry? Am I missing some sort of significant tactical advantage by not doing so? I am just not seeing the practical advantages to me of open carry. I can certainly see some disadvantages in appearing as a 'shoot me first' target opportunity.

I travel up to WA about twice/year. Since they don't allow concealed carry w/o a license (and I have not yet applied for the non-resident license*), my only LEGAL alternative is open carry. With a choice between non-legal concealed carry or legal open carry (and the contact with non-informed jurisdictions), which choice is most likely? (What actually happened is that due to my own misreading of the law i had thought that carrying an unloaded concealed weapon was legal, due to the law stating that any loaded weapon in a vehicle in considered concealed, visible or not.)

*note: I'm actually planning on getting the UT concealed carry license, since it's honored in WA _and_ meets the NICS requirements, according to the ATF. I'm just waiting for my local training facility to hold the class.
 
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