I perceive that a loaded uncased rifle pointed directly at me is one careless motion or poor decision away from killing me. My perception matches reality. So it's a "perception issue" in the same way that I perceive someone driving down the sidewalk at 50 mph to be a danger to pedestrians. I perceive that both people need to be firmly corrected.
Open Carry of Rifles at an Airport
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I perceive that a loaded uncased rifle pointed directly at me is one careless motion or poor decision away from killing me. My perception matches reality. So it's a "perception issue" in the same way that I perceive someone driving down the sidewalk at 50 mph to be a danger to pedestrians. I perceive that both people need to be firmly corrected.
Nom de Forum
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This incident is another good example that just because a person has a high IQ and high amount of formal education you should not automatically assume they have a high degree of wisdom.
RustyShackelford
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Post 24; New York City, NY.....
I agree with #24, I took a few business trips up to New York in 2012/2013.
A few times I saw uniformed NYPD officers & armed MPs from the New York National Guard with M4s, MP5s, shotguns, etc.
I & other visitors/passengers around me didn't "wig" out.
Honestly if OC of rifles or shotguns was allowed in my area(which it's not to my limited knowledge) I wouldn't be a "shrieking violet" over muzzle sweeps or how they were carried.
Now, if some gomer came into a cafe or retail location with a shotgun/rifle in his or her hands looking ready to fire, that's different.
My state passed a "open carry" provision about 2 years ago. In short, a LE officer couldn't cite a CCW holder or charge them if the gun was displayed due to wind, bad weather, bending over, etc. A license holder or gun owner couldn't "open carry" but the NRA & a few local 2A groups are pushing to change that.
FWIW; open carry of loaded handguns is allowed while fishing or camping.
I agree with #24, I took a few business trips up to New York in 2012/2013.
A few times I saw uniformed NYPD officers & armed MPs from the New York National Guard with M4s, MP5s, shotguns, etc.
I & other visitors/passengers around me didn't "wig" out.
Honestly if OC of rifles or shotguns was allowed in my area(which it's not to my limited knowledge) I wouldn't be a "shrieking violet" over muzzle sweeps or how they were carried.
Now, if some gomer came into a cafe or retail location with a shotgun/rifle in his or her hands looking ready to fire, that's different.
My state passed a "open carry" provision about 2 years ago. In short, a LE officer couldn't cite a CCW holder or charge them if the gun was displayed due to wind, bad weather, bending over, etc. A license holder or gun owner couldn't "open carry" but the NRA & a few local 2A groups are pushing to change that.
FWIW; open carry of loaded handguns is allowed while fishing or camping.
moxie
Member
Totally counterproductive.
I would NOT appreciate being muzzle swept by some random dude doing a publicity stunt at an airport.
Neither would I appreciate being muzzle swept at the gun range, gun store and whatnot...
because: a) I do not know if the rifle is loaded or not b) is safety engaged/disengaged ....
Neither would I appreciate being muzzle swept at the gun range, gun store and whatnot...
because: a) I do not know if the rifle is loaded or not b) is safety engaged/disengaged ....
HoosierQ
Member
I think this OC thing is made most clear by making a differentiation between a holstered weapon and an un-holstered one. A weapon secured in a holster is safe as long as it stays holstered. Pretty much by definition a rifle can't be holstered. I suppose if one figured out how to do it...
I think we must first split this OC subject out between holstered and un-holstered and then debate safety, "normality", and benefit to RKBA from there.
I am seeing more and more holstered OC here and frankly every time I do, I am noticing less and less discomfort with it. Last time, while I did notice, it was a guy with two little girls getting slices of pizza and after initially processing it, I ate pizza like everybody else. I still wonder if it's a good idea (giving away one's "element of surprise" if you will) but I am getting used to it just fine.
I think we must first split this OC subject out between holstered and un-holstered and then debate safety, "normality", and benefit to RKBA from there.
I am seeing more and more holstered OC here and frankly every time I do, I am noticing less and less discomfort with it. Last time, while I did notice, it was a guy with two little girls getting slices of pizza and after initially processing it, I ate pizza like everybody else. I still wonder if it's a good idea (giving away one's "element of surprise" if you will) but I am getting used to it just fine.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
Yes, and then some unbalanced person does shoot up some place and we're back to square one. Better leave it as is, that a "bias" is introduced into the system such that open carrying a long arm in a populated area is decidedly not recommended. Rights notwithstanding.
It's like the right of a pedestrian to cross a busy street without looking. Not recommended, rights notwithstanding.
Terry, 230RN
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I'm still wondering how someone with a holstered and OCed pistol protects himself (and others!) from some crazy gun-grabber taking the pistol and going nuts with it??
I mean - it happens that someone grabs a cops gun and uses it...
so not sure how Joe Blow with his non-retention cheapo holster is going to prevent that.
IMHO .... CC is the way to go. makes gun-grabbing very hard or close to impossible....
I mean - it happens that someone grabs a cops gun and uses it...
so not sure how Joe Blow with his non-retention cheapo holster is going to prevent that.
IMHO .... CC is the way to go. makes gun-grabbing very hard or close to impossible....
The proponents of OC usually proclaim that they have situational awareness that rivals Spider-sense and H2H retention skills of Bruce Lee, Jet Li and the Batman.
They never consider a planned gun grab. They assume that the evil-doer will stand in front of them and announce.
"Hello, I am a wild and crazy guy and now I will touch your large American firearm".
At that point, they will shoot the person or use the Flying Dragon kick of spleen death.
They never consider a planned gun grab. They assume that the evil-doer will stand in front of them and announce.
"Hello, I am a wild and crazy guy and now I will touch your large American firearm".
At that point, they will shoot the person or use the Flying Dragon kick of spleen death.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
@ texasgun
One way to avoid, if not eliminate, a from-behind gun grab is to carry crossdraw on the off side. (Not to mention using retention holsters)
Makes it more difficult for the grabber from the rear. It's also easier to defend against a grab from either front or back since you can fend it off with the off hand while still trying to get the gun yourself with your gun hand.
(It so happens that's my preferred way to carry, but not for retention reasons. I just happened to think of that later while sitting on my couch comfortably watching TV and snacking on Fritos. )
I don't OC by the way, except afield.
Your Opinion May Vary.
One way to avoid, if not eliminate, a from-behind gun grab is to carry crossdraw on the off side. (Not to mention using retention holsters)
Makes it more difficult for the grabber from the rear. It's also easier to defend against a grab from either front or back since you can fend it off with the off hand while still trying to get the gun yourself with your gun hand.
(It so happens that's my preferred way to carry, but not for retention reasons. I just happened to think of that later while sitting on my couch comfortably watching TV and snacking on Fritos.
)I don't OC by the way, except afield.
Your Opinion May Vary.
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Hurryin' Hoosier
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Carrying a rifle into an airport. Brilliant! Brilliant!!
RustyShackelford
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Gun grabs?.....
I don't quite get some people's obsession with weapon retention(s) or open carrying/gun grabs.
I've worn pistols & sidearms off & on since I was 19(US armed forces). I've worked in many different places & had several different weapons.
I never had any "gun grabs" or violent/deranged subjects who wanted to fight with me over my pistol.
Does it happen? Yes, I'm sure it does. Does it occur often? No, not really.
I don't quite get some people's obsession with weapon retention(s) or open carrying/gun grabs.
I've worn pistols & sidearms off & on since I was 19(US armed forces). I've worked in many different places & had several different weapons.
I never had any "gun grabs" or violent/deranged subjects who wanted to fight with me over my pistol.
Does it happen? Yes, I'm sure it does. Does it occur often? No, not really.
So legal unless the authorities can find someone who "felt threatened" then a legal activity becomes disorderly conduct. Pointing a rifle at someone could bring far more serious charges, if true. Disorderly conduct is more a "we don't like that legal activity" charge.
BSA1
member
Oh for crying out loud give this gun grab argument a rest.
LEO's have gun grab attempts made because they are required by their job to interact in close proximity with criminals, mentally unstable people, people under the influence of drugs or alcohol, people whose judgment may be clouded by the moment and people that don't want to be arrested. If as a civilian gun carrier you routinely have to deal with this type of people then you should use a retention type holster or better yet not carry at all.
For those that believe retention is a issue please post links about incidents where civilians that were open carrying were disarmed and the details of the attack.
LEO's have gun grab attempts made because they are required by their job to interact in close proximity with criminals, mentally unstable people, people under the influence of drugs or alcohol, people whose judgment may be clouded by the moment and people that don't want to be arrested. If as a civilian gun carrier you routinely have to deal with this type of people then you should use a retention type holster or better yet not carry at all.
For those that believe retention is a issue please post links about incidents where civilians that were open carrying were disarmed and the details of the attack.
moxie
Member
So you've got the best retention holster in existence.
Instead of grabbing your gun from behind, I just smack you on the head with a hammer, from behind. Now I take your gun at my leisure. If I can get that close to you from behind, you're mine. I don't care what kind of holster you've got.
Instead of grabbing your gun from behind, I just smack you on the head with a hammer, from behind. Now I take your gun at my leisure. If I can get that close to you from behind, you're mine. I don't care what kind of holster you've got.
Well, the fact that the huge majority of civilian carriers carry concealed (either because of legal requirements, cultural pressures, or just preference/judgment) means there aren't that many trials.
This one comes to mind: http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/t...cle_970e24e7-dd5d-57e7-8fb8-a64a0a2b26ba.htmlBSA1 said:
RustyShackelford
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Gun grabs & open carry.....
1000s of armed citizens & CCW license holders open carry everyday across the USA without any incident.
The concern over gun grabs or retention issues seems way over-rated IMO.
As noted, if a OCer was constantly around prisoners or convicts or intoxicated patrons of a bar/restaurant or mental health patients of a hospital then I could see buying a level II/III retention holster but most US gunners are going from home-to-work-to-home. Some may go out or be in places like malls or movie theaters but they aren't chasing down drug dealers or street thugs.
RS
1000s of armed citizens & CCW license holders open carry everyday across the USA without any incident.
The concern over gun grabs or retention issues seems way over-rated IMO.
As noted, if a OCer was constantly around prisoners or convicts or intoxicated patrons of a bar/restaurant or mental health patients of a hospital then I could see buying a level II/III retention holster but most US gunners are going from home-to-work-to-home. Some may go out or be in places like malls or movie theaters but they aren't chasing down drug dealers or street thugs.
RS
@BSA1 Good to know that you can identify mentally unstable people, criminals, nut jobs, addicts ... even when they are standing behind you in the line at Walmart or when you don't see them approaching you from behind
yes, cop gun grabs happen because they interact with bad people. LUCKILY bad people are just around cops and never anywhere near you..... :banghead:
yes, cop gun grabs happen because they interact with bad people. LUCKILY bad people are just around cops and never anywhere near you..... :banghead:
RPRNY
Member
Counterproductive, dangerous to those undertaking it, and ill-conceived. Your fellow Americans are not prepared to have completely unrestricted open carry and these provocations are detrimental to efforts to claw back much more fundamental rights (see recent developments in our nation's capitol). You don't have to agree with the view that there are indeed some reasonable restrictions on carry but you do have to recognize that the majority of the voting public does not agree with you.
hiker64012
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There is case law through an east coast court decision that states, "The observance of a legal activity, even though causing alarm to some viewing the activity, does not cause that same activity or event to now become illegal".
I don't have the case in front of me so the wording may not be exact but you get the point. The case involved a patron of a restaurant that allows customers to call in an order and then wait in a "order pick up" area inside the restaurant. The defendant had valid CCW docs and the weapon was covered. However, a member of the staff noticed what she took to be the outline of a pistol under the patron's shirt (he picked a white t-shirt as his cover that night which, had he chosen a better, would have saved him a lot of money and time). She calls the cops, they rough him up and argue btwn themselves on what they can write him with, and haul him in. Took about 18 months for the case to be decided in his favor. Even so, it took a lot longer to get his ability to CCW again. This was a perfect example of being able to beat the rap but not the ride.
Laws and their interpretation/application vary state-to-state. In gun-friendly states, I've seen cases like this handled very quickly by the police and everyone goes home happy. The police pretty much are forced to make contact with the individual because they've been dispatched specifically to address the call. If everyone remains calm and reasonable, they talk to the person for a few minutes so that they feel comfortable that the person isn't about to "go off", the public sees the police talk to them (so they are happy with the police), and everyone calmly goes their own ways.
"When you have a legal question, don't ask a cop - ask a lawyer."
I don't have the case in front of me so the wording may not be exact but you get the point. The case involved a patron of a restaurant that allows customers to call in an order and then wait in a "order pick up" area inside the restaurant. The defendant had valid CCW docs and the weapon was covered. However, a member of the staff noticed what she took to be the outline of a pistol under the patron's shirt (he picked a white t-shirt as his cover that night which, had he chosen a better, would have saved him a lot of money and time). She calls the cops, they rough him up and argue btwn themselves on what they can write him with, and haul him in. Took about 18 months for the case to be decided in his favor. Even so, it took a lot longer to get his ability to CCW again. This was a perfect example of being able to beat the rap but not the ride.
Laws and their interpretation/application vary state-to-state. In gun-friendly states, I've seen cases like this handled very quickly by the police and everyone goes home happy. The police pretty much are forced to make contact with the individual because they've been dispatched specifically to address the call. If everyone remains calm and reasonable, they talk to the person for a few minutes so that they feel comfortable that the person isn't about to "go off", the public sees the police talk to them (so they are happy with the police), and everyone calmly goes their own ways.
"When you have a legal question, don't ask a cop - ask a lawyer."
BSA1
member
While on a nationwide basis most handguns are carried concealed in some States such as Arizona I am led to believe Open Carry is common. Therefore there should be data in those States documenting number of incidents where the owner was either disarmed or had someone attempt to take his handgun
BSA1
member
Spats,
Several comments about the incident you linked;
1. It happened almost three years ago (November, 2011).
2. The News article gives vague, poorly written different versions of the event;
In the second paragraph of the linked article it says “Toby Smith Jr. is accused of stealing Blaine Tyler's gun inside a gas station last week and fatally shooting him after Tyler chased Smith inside the store.”
Then in the third paragraph from the bottom of the article it says “The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun… Tyler did not draw his weapon. According to court papers, Smith took Tyler 's gun during a struggle and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith inside the store.”
No motive is given. Was Tyler targeted because he was Open Carrying and the perps wanted his gun or was it robbery gone bad when they walked in on armed citizen?
Then we have another version. In a article dated August 13, 2013 it says “Tyler, 48, a customer at the gas station, was wearing a gun in a holster, plainly visible, when Smith grabbed the weapon from Tyler during a struggle inside the store and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith, authorities said.”
So it is not clear where the gun was when Smith tried to grab it. Maybe Tyler was disarmed after he had drawn it to defend himself. It does repeat the version that the victim was shot after he chased his attacker after being disarmed.
Regardless of how one wants to interpret this tragic event it is the only one reported so far in the country and it happen almost three years ago.
BSA1
member
texasgun,
Cheap, emotional comment. This forum is called The High Road for a reason. Persuade with facts not outbursts than have no factual basis.
But since you asked I will address your comments about my abilities.
First I have a college degree that says I know something about mental disorders.
I have carried a badge for close to 40 years. For 23 years I worked on a daily basis with offenders with mental disorders. For 20 of those years I worked in "Supermax" Prison that houses the worst, most violent inmates in the prison system. I have been involved in numerous fights and have been attacked by inmates with edged weapons and "shanks".
This 40 years of experience gives me the ability to spot and identify behaviors that are out of the ordinary, gang members by their tats, clothing and behavior and other little things that most people never notice.
Since you are concerned about my welfare while standing in line at Wal-Mart I carry a SIG P239 in a Mitch Rosen high ride holster with muzzle canted to the rear. (Commonly called FBI cant). In order to draw the gun I must lift up and forward. This means it is impossible for someone standing behind to draw my gun.
But while you are attempting to snatch my gun while I am unaware just what do you expect me to do? Fall to my knees and plead "oh please don't shoot me texas gun!" What is going to happen is I am going to cover my gun with one hand.. Then I am going to stomp on the insoles of your feet, kick you in the knees, turn and deliver knee blows to your groin, with my free hand I am going to deliver hard, repeated open handed blows to your nose breaking it, I am going to hook my thumb into the corner of your mouth and try to rip the skin open, I am going to try to gouge your eyes out with my fingers, twist your ears and bit you with my teeth hard. Then when you release your grip I am going to draw my gun and proceed to let you have the bullets in it.
If this sounds brutal, violent and graphic it is. When you grab on gun without my permission you have started a attempt to kill me. I don't intend to let you or anyone else do that.
You are attributing your lack of defensive skills and lack of will to survive to me and others that carry a firearm.
Maybe you would like to retract your statement now?
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