Open Carry vs Concealed Carry

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I understand that there are a multitude of laws pertaining to how a weapon is carried but I don't understand the "why." Can someone explain, in a sentence or two, why various jurisdictions can allow you to carry a concealed weapon but make it illegal to have it exposed at any time? What is the rationalization used? In Colorado, except for a few of the socialist led communities, I can carry a loaded pistol in my car or exposed on my person but cannot put a coat over it unless I have a permit for concealed carry. Has there ever been a rational argument made, other than the attempts to completely prohibit gun ownership, for the wide range of regulations concerning the right to bear arms? To me the phrase "bear arms" is pretty self explanatory.
 
Before this devolves into the usual "OC is stupid / I wouldn't do it", etc responses, let's remember that that's not what the question was.
 
Steel Horse Rider said:
...Can someone explain, in a sentence or two, why various jurisdictions can allow you to carry a concealed weapon but make it illegal to have it exposed at any time? What is the rationalization used? In Colorado, except for a few of the socialist led communities, I can carry a loaded pistol in my car or exposed on my person but cannot put a coat over it unless I have a permit for concealed carry. Has there ever been a rational argument made, other than the attempts to completely prohibit gun ownership, for the wide range of regulations concerning the right to bear arms? To me the phrase "bear arms" is pretty self explanatory.

Moderator Talk -- Listen Up:

This could be an interesting discussion, but for the purposes of this discussion it will need to be fact and evidence based. So --

Do not post:

Speculation, guesses, or unsupported opinions based on your biases

Do post:

Factual information supported or supportable with documentation about how the laws in various States came to be what they now are.

For example, the "wide open" laws in Vermont, where it is legal for anyone not prohibited from possessing a gun to carry a gun openly or concealed without a permit, are a result of a 1903 decision of the Vermont Supreme Court construing and applying a provision of the Vermont Constitution.

This is the Legal Forum, and we discuss the law here.

Posts setting out guesses have been deleted. If we can't keep this focused, the thread will be closed.
 
My state considers open carry to be an expression of the right to keep and bear arms. It considers concealed carry to be a privilege. I believe this is a legal artifact where on
y criminals engaged in concealed carry. I do not believe this to be rational, but rather a political tactic to restrict the right through social pressure.
 
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tomrkba said:
My state considers open carry to be an expression of the right to keep and bear arms. It considers concealed carry to be a privilege. I believe this is a legal artifact where on
y criminals engaged in concealed carry...
There may be something to that. It would be interesting and instructive to see where and how that has been expressed.

For example, in Heller (District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)) the Court referred to a 19th Century Louisiana case (Heller, at 613):
...in State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann. 489, 490 (1850), the Louisiana Supreme Court held that citizens had a right to carry arms openly: “This is the right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, and which is calculated to incite men to a manly and noble defence of themselves, if necessary, and of their country, without any tendency to secret advantages and unmanly assassinations.”....
 
I believe that historically the ‘right to keep and bear’, in the states that articulated the right in their constitution, viewed open carry as the honorable and normal way a sidearm was carried. If you consider the folks that carried a sidearm in their day-to-day duties; range riders, hunting guides, etc., concealing would have been impractical. Open carry was the norm at the time of the particular State’s drafting of its constitution.

Concealed carry was historically associated with deviant behavior; gamblers, robbers, organized crime, etc. Then, in the late 60s and early 70s, there was a cultural shift that occurred, where all firearms ownership was marginalized and even openly mocked by the cultural elites. Since they controlled the popular media of the time, we got cowboy movies where the hero didn’t load his six-gun; after all, he wasn’t going to use it, just point it.

The elitists got people to believe that self-protection was unnecessary, even Neanderthal, in modern society; just give the bad person what he or she wants because your life isn’t worth your wallet. The police will protect you and are just a phone call away. Women were told to submit to their attackers, resisting would only be worse. The elephant in the room they willingly chose to ignore was that if a bad person was disposed to break the written rules, the unwritten ones (submit/don’t resist) didn’t stand a chance.

There is much more I could write on this subject but for brevity let’s just remember that during the 70s and into the 80s gun ownership in a macro sense was considered shameful or dishonorable. If you grew up during that time you will likely remember it; even kids cartoons mocked the idea of firearms and hunting.

Even to this day I think there are some people who still feel that shame. They’ll tell you they don’t discuss their guns due to OPSEC, but the truth of the matter is that the stigma of firearms ownership remains in their memory. After all, if one were concerned about OPSEC, or even had a concept of what it means, they wouldn’t participate in a firearms centric forum.

During the 90s more and more people began to question the so-called fact that firearms were unnecessary, and the Courts only confirmed what many knew, but all should have known; you are responsible for your own self-protection. Because firearms were so stigmatized, and the carry thereof even more so, most people preferred to carry concealed. Then one by one States turned from shall-issue to must issue permitting and licensing schemes. The pendulum swung fully to concealed as the norm.

When I decided to get my concealed pistol license (CPL) here in Washington, I got it as insurance in case I needed to go someplace unfriendly after dark; and carried thusly. Then the Tacoma Mall shooting happened and what I should have known became finally apparent to me- the bad guys don’t respect the borders we fabricate in our thinking, whether it’s day vs night, or good side of town vs bad. So my carry became routine regardless of time or destination. The whole time I carried, however, I found myself overly concerned with absolute concealment, even to the point that I began to consider (what I believe to be less-than-effective) guns and calibers to keep it hidden. I remembered the stigma, but felt confident that it wasn’t the driver for my anxiety; I just didn’t want a run-in with Johnny Law and to lose my carry license.

Then the open carry movement began in WA, started by a man named Lonnie Wilson. You see, open carry was completely lawful in Washington, but because it wasn’t practiced, it, as a right, was somewhat lost. Again, for brevity, I’ll save you the long story of how we returned open carry to the normal and acceptable method it used to be. Today incidents where an open carrier is stopped by police are very rare.

… why various jurisdictions can allow you to carry a concealed weapon but make it illegal to have it exposed at any time?
Is it actually illegal, or simply unusual? If it’s the former, the answer would be lost somewhere in the legislative history of that place. The populace has grown accustomed to unarmed citizens, and unaccustomed to armed citizens. If it’s the latter (unusual), then the answer lies with the gun owners who remain ashamed or feel guilty somehow about their guns.

Concealed carry placates those citizens that are alarmed in the presence of a firearm. The truly disappointing thing is that many of those citizens that are alarmed at the visible presence of a privately armed citizen are gun owners themselves.

Can someone explain, in a sentence or two…
Uh, yeah, sorry about that.

EDIT: to correct some MAJOR typos.
 
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In WA we have had CC since the 60's. Unfortunately they didn't provide any reason for it when the legislation was passed. We already had OC here and have since statehood so I'm also curious why they felt CC was necessary. Probably never know, maybe just didn't want to see OC anymore in the city and didn't want to run afoul of our constitution.
 
Sigh!

A lot of opinions and beliefs, but no one is coming up with any documentation supporting them. I would like to see some good answers to the OP's questions. But what people believe of think, unless supported with good evidence, really doesn't necessarily tell us what true.

I'll leave this open for a while longer to see if someone might have some solid, documented information to share.
 
(This is limited to the state of CO)
The Colorado constitution has this to say:
The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons.

So the state constitution says straight out you can carry a gun for self defense but only have the right to carry one openly. That seems to contradict the municipal preemption in OP. There are citations to court cases regarding limitations of this in that link but only short snippets.

I'm curious about this one but don't know how to get more information on it.
IN CONSIDERING A CHALLENGE TO THE VALIDITY OF AN ORDINANCE REGULATING THE EXERCISE OF THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS, A COURT NEED NOT DETERMINE THE STATUS OF THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS UNDER THIS SECTION. The trial court erred in reaching the question of the status of the right guaranteed under this section, and in holding that the right is fundamental. Robertson v. City & County of Denver, 874 P.2d 325 (Colo. 1994).
The summary in all caps seems to say that this right can be legislated away. Since local governments can ban open carry it would seem this is the case.

As for why the local town does not ban both open and concealed carry, they cannot. The CO concealed carry laws have preemption built in.

18-12-214 Authority granted by permit - carrying restrictions
(1) (a) A permit to carry a concealed handgun authorizes the permittee to carry a concealed handgun in all areas of the state, except as specifically limited in this section. A permit does not authorize the permittee to use a handgun in a manner that would violate a provision of state law. A local government does not have authority to adopt or enforce an ordinance or resolution that would conflict with any provision of this part 2.
 
CoatTrain49 stated
In WA we have had CC since the 60's.
Incorrect. The state has allowed for it since the '30s -- Washington is (arguably, as Indiana also claims the title) the "original shall-issue" state.
We already had OC here and have since statehood so I'm also curious why they felt CC was necessary. Probably never know, maybe just didn't want to see OC anymore in the city and didn't want to run afoul of our constitution.
The history is murky, but (not to indulge in speculation or opinion) it seems more an issue of the legislature simply attempting to codify common practices. (The state constitution is one of the few state constitutions which actually originally provided for the right to keep and bear arms.)
 
This should be interesting. My first thought was "not this one again" until I read it.

Open carry vs concealed and why the law leans that way legally. Not really sure. One thing to consider is open carry is often a practice of law enforcement. Before I moved to a free state it was not uncommon to see a police officer in street clothes OC a duty firearm. Some laws against open carry could be related to being portrayed as a police officer. No documentation to support that I know of. But it makes slightly more sense than "man with a gun" calls from scared sheep when they see an open carry weapon.
 
I'm 80 years old, so "family stories" for me date back to the late 1800s. :) Add to those stories, I was an avid reader of pre-WW II western novels--which were written by authors of the early 20th century who had their own histories of stories from the late 1800s.

Remember that there is little consistency from one state's legislature to another. Recall the Reconstruction era in the Confederacy after the Civil War, plus the Jim Crow laws.

With all that in mind, when and where carry of a handgun was legal, honorable men did open carry. Concealed carry of a "hideout gun" was considered to be low rent. Card sharps and thieves and suchlike. (Does not include ladies' "purse guns".)

These sorts of attitudes could well have affected legislative views on gun control laws.
 
Kentucky has a strong state constitutional law concerning firearms and has always allowed open carry as a state right. When CW became lawful, it just added to the ways one can carry a firearm. It also protects you if you accidentally print or expose your gun, i.e. reaching in a store, etc.

This is from docjt.ky.gov/legal

The Kentucky Constitution reads:
Section 1
Rights of life, liberty, worship, pursuit of safety and happiness, free
speech, acquiring and protecting property, peaceable assembly, redress of
grievances, bearing arms.

Seventh: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State,
subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent
persons from carrying concealed weapons.
Kentucky law provides a strong background for permitting the open carry of
firearms in most places. As such, there is little case law discussing the issue,
because simply put, it isn’t illegal to openly carry firearms and the cases the do
arise are not litigated to the point that they become case law. Even if an
individual is charged, the cases will likely be quickly dismissed and will not
remain in the judicial system to become legal precedent.
STATUTORY LAW
Because open carry of firearms is for the most part, legal in Kentucky, the
statutes focus on concealed carry. Most of Kentucky’s weapon law with respect
to concealed carry is in KRS 527.020. Over the years, the statute has evolved to
include matters originally resolved in case law. For example, changes that
permit the carrying a weapon in a glove compartment or other enclosed installed
container in a vehicle, without the need for a CCDW permit, both evolved from
cases that ruled that was permissible. A recent change that specifically protects
an individual who keeps a weapon secured in their vehicle at their place of
employment is also as a result of attempts by employers to prohibit their 2
employees from having weapons in the company parking lot. (KRS 237.106 also
discusses the issue of carrying within a vehicle, and places penalties on
employers or property owners who attempt to regulate it, again, subject to
conditions listed in that statute.) A change in the law in 2012 permits the
owners or lessees of real property to carry concealed on their property without a
permit, and to allow certain other listed family members to do so as well. They
may also carry concealed at their business, if they are the sole proprietor of the
business. (In addition, they may certainly choose not to post their business to
prohibit concealed carry and to permit their employees to carry with a permit, as
well.)
 
FL is shall issue with respect to concealed, does not have open carry, and just recently passed a law that "inadvertent exposure" (such as the wind blowing your jacket open, say at the gas station, does not constitute "brandishing" which was a criminal issue. While it's CWL is fairly easy to get, there are still some states that will not reciprocate so FL will not acknowledge some of those. While it can be aggravating, this is still a States' Rights issue and I prefer that.
 
"I believe that historically the ‘right to keep and bear’, in the states that articulated the right in their constitution, viewed open carry as the honorable and normal way a sidearm was carried."

It is worth remembering that open carry was also the only real practical means of carry for the early period of our nation. Match and flintlock pistols tended to be rather large, more than one needed to be carried to guarantee a shot, and until percussion caps, were not really practical for carry of any sort. Unless concealment itself was the goal (which, in a society comfortable with firearms, actually does suggest nefarious motives), pistols themselves were not very practical compared to long guns. I suspect pistols took on a sinister connotation simply because no one that didn't need to conceal them for a reason would spend their money on them over a rifle with many uses. Once percussion guns that could be carried at length came on the scene, I suspect they were often carried under an over garment or cover, simply to keep them clean and protected (and from banging/snagging on things, or being stolen by pickpockets --guns were highly valuable then)

Not that the notion of "proud & honorable open carry" with which we are all familiar doesn't have well founded logical arguments underpinning it, but there were also practical considerations of the day that made it more attractive (even into modern times), and really the only available option to many/most. Guns small enough to conceal really were only good for close contact shots (even Booth's pistol was rather large and clunky, and that was with the advances of percussion caps), and took a good bit of time to bring into play (suggesting their use on unawares opponents).

Personally, I see the paradigm change as cartridge technology allowing socially-acceptable, useful, practical, and crucial long guns to shrink down into items that could be carried unobtrusively on the person, rather than a parallel evolution of two distinct regimes predating any particular firearm development. As we all know, there is no true differentiating characteristic between short and long guns at the end of the day, because size/length is a continuous trait ;)

TCB
 
I understand that there are a multitude of laws pertaining to how a weapon is carried but I don't understand the "why." Can someone explain, in a sentence or two, why various jurisdictions can allow you to carry a concealed weapon but make it illegal to have it exposed at any time? What is the rationalization used? In Colorado, except for a few of the socialist led communities, I can carry a loaded pistol in my car or exposed on my person but cannot put a coat over it unless I have a permit for concealed carry. Has there ever been a rational argument made, other than the attempts to completely prohibit gun ownership, for the wide range of regulations concerning the right to bear arms? To me the phrase "bear arms" is pretty self explanatory.

Open carry is less regulated than concealed carry. There are far more states where one can legally open carry but a license is required to carry concealed.

I have yet to see a rational argument for that, or anything black and white in text. Definitely following the thread.

(usually people guess or opine that it' the old "if you are doing nothing wrong you have nothing to hide therefore you don't need to hide your gun" kind of thing)
 
In Alabama this goes back to a supreme court case State vr. Reid where the court ruled as follows upholding the restriction of concealed carry.

1. The act of the 1st of February, 1839, "To suppress the evil practice of carrying weapons secretly," does not either directly, or indirectly tend to divest the citizen of the "right to bear arms in defence of himself and the State;" and is, therefore consistent with the 23d section of the 1 Art. of the constitution.

One analysis of the case states.

The Attorney General for the State, argued that it was competent for the Legislature to prohibit the wearing of concealed weapons, that such a law did not conflict with the constitutional provision, which guarantied to the citizen the right to bear arms in the defence of himself and the State. That the statute under which the defendant was convicted, did not impair that right, while it proposed to discountenance by punishment, a practice which had been greatly promotive of violence and bloodshed. (p.614)Every man was still left free to carry arms openly, the only manner in which they could be used for defensive purposes.
 
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"Washington State adopted the Uniform Pistol & Revolver Act in 1935. In 1961, Washington State departed from the discretionary permit system, and required that if the applicant for a concealed weapon permit was allowed to possess a handgun under Washington law, the permit had to be issued. [22] At first glance, Washington's new policy appears quite remarkable, but a little reflection on the nature of concealed weapons suggests the state's decision reflected a realistic understanding of handgun ownership.

The only circumstances under which a concealed handgun is likely to come to the attention of the police are that either the weapon was drawn (either criminally or in self-defense), or that the person carrying it was searched by the police for some other, presumably criminal reason. A person allowed to possess a concealable firearm in his or her home, cannot, practically speaking, be prevented from carrying it concealed outside the home. As a New York court upholding New York State's handgun licensing law (the Sullivan Act) observed, "If he has it in his possession, he can readily stick it in his pocket when he goes abroad." [23]

If large numbers of handgun owners choose to ignore a concealed weapon law, the state has only three ways of responding: repeal the law, restrict handgun ownership at home, or make concealed weapon permits available to nearly anyone who is allowed to own a handgun. Whereas New York decided to license the possession of a handgun at home very restrictively, Washington state decided to make permits easy to get, and thus keep handgun ownership safe and legal.

Washington's statute is astonishingly forceful:

The judge of a court of record, the chief of police of a municipality, or the sheriff of a county, shall within thirty days after the filing of an application of any person issue a license to such person to carry a pistol concealed on his person within this state for four years from date of issue, for the purposes of protection or while engaged in business, sport or while traveling. [24]

The statute goes on to list the conditions that would cause, "uch citizen's constitutional right to bear arms" to be denied, namely the applicant being under 21 years old; subject to a court order or injunction regarding firearms; out on bail pending trial or appeal; awaiting sentencing for a crime of violence; or subject to an outstanding arrest warrant for a misdemeanor or felony.

The same statute includes provisions for filing a civil suit against any agency that wrongfully refuses to issue a license, or modifies the requirements of the law. Notably, RCW sec. 9.41.070 allows non-residents to obtain such permits, although the state has up to 60 days to perform a background check on non-residents and on residents who have moved into Washington in the last 90 days. [25]

In 1983, two important changes were made: the licenses would be valid for a 4 year term (previously they had only been valid for 2 years); and license applicants who were improperly denied, and who sued an issuing agency for wrongful denial, would be automatically awarded attorneys fees.

As of 1993 there were 241,806 licenses outstanding in Washington State. [26] Given Washington's population of approximately five million, about 4% of the population appears to have a carry permit. [27]"

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/ShallIssue.htm#c6

This is an analysis I found of Washington state's reasoning for adopting shall issue CCW permits from a legal standpoint. Hope it helps.
 
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"(usually people guess or opine that it' the old "if you are doing nothing wrong you have nothing to hide therefore you don't need to hide your gun" kind of thing)"

Perhaps not a rational argument, but an intuitive one that has undoubtedly driven this state of affairs since antiquity. Are we only looking for "good" reasons for open v concealed carry, or all that have been offered to justify laws over the years?

TCB
 
barnbwt said:
...Are we only looking for "good" reasons for open v concealed carry, or all that have been offered to justify laws over the years?
We need to steer completely clear of the open vs. concealed debate. That's a hairball.

The real question before us is why/how the laws came to be what they are. That is an interesting question, but we need solid information -- not random "opinions" pulled out of the air.
 
In Alabama this goes back to a supreme court case State vr. Reid where the court ruled as follows upholding the restriction of concealed carry.

1. The act of the 1st of February, 1839, "To suppress the evil practice of carrying weapons secretly," does not either directly, or indirectly tend to divest the citizen of the "right to bear arms in defence of himself and the State;" and is, therefore consistent with the 23d section of the 1 Art. of the constitution.

One analysis of the case states.

The Attorney General for the State, argued that it was competent for the Legislature to prohibit the wearing of concealed weapons, that such a law did not conflict with the constitutional provision, which guarantied to the citizen the right to bear arms in the defence of himself and the State. That the statute under which the defendant was convicted, did not impair that right, while it proposed to discountenance by punishment, a practice which had been greatly promotive of violence and bloodshed. (p.614)Every man was still left free to carry arms openly, the only manner in which they could be used for defensive purposes.


After reading through the document I have on this decision again there are several things that stand out. All of these decisions are based on state constitutions. A lot of the states have very similar wording to Alabama such as "right to bear arms in defence of himself and the State" with the key word being defense. This decision reference cases in other states that also had prohibitionons on carrying a weapon concealed. In all the cases sited the argument was used that caring a concealed weapon was not a defensive posture.

http://www.guncite.com/court/state/1al612.html
 
Laws prohibiting the concealment of firearms started to emerge in the early part of the 19th centry - Kentucky and Louisiana in 1813, Indiana in 1820, Tennessee and Virginia in 1838, Alabama in 1839, and Ohio in 1859.

Why the prohibitions? I have to dig into the library to find some citations, but there was a social attitude during the era that "gentlemen" don't carry concealed - only highwayman and those with bad intentions concealed their weapons.

Somehow, over time, that logic has flipped in some jurisdictions - where OC is banned but concealed permitted (TX); both permitted (VA); concealed banned but OC permitted; or both concealed and OC effectively prohibited. I'm not sure the "why" can be summed up in a sentence or two.

I think the answer the OP is looking for is going to find its roots in a series of changes over time, based on social attitudes, events and politics. all varying by geography.
 
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Thanks to all that have responded. I now know a lot more than when I posted the question about the historical progression of "bearing arms". I guess I was trying to find a logical reason as to why strapping a pistol on my belt was okay but putting an overcoat on that covered the pistol was not. I am going to assume that there is not a logical reason. I am really surprised that the movement started so early (1813 & 1820) but I suppose that when you believe you have become a civilized society you must take measures to keep the riffraff away.

Again, thanks for all the responses, this has been very educational.
 
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