Open top revolver durability

[BCRider]

Hi all. I've been bitten by the Cowboy Action scene and over the next few months I'll be gathering the various stuff I need for this style of shooting.

At the event I attended this past weekend a few of the shooters were using BP cap and ball revolvers. And something about using these along with the smoke show really grabbed me. ESPECIALLY the guy shooting a Walker Colt replica for one revolver and an open top Colt Army for his second. That Walker definetly speaks with AWE-THOR-EETAY!

Looking around my first inclination is to stick with the Remington 1851 style but I'm seeing a lot of sweet looking open top options. But I'm also seeing a fair number of threads dealing with issues with open tops. Given the amount that I'll likely be shooting what with the monthly or more meets and some practice and testing sessions would you recomend any open tops or should I stick with the Remington 1851 option?

Finally I'm not hopeing to start any sort of range war but I've seen some threads here and elsewhere that indicate that the Uberti options tend to be a bit more durable than the Pietta options. Is this still the case or has Pietta managed to deal with some of the past issues?

 

[Smokin_Gun]

Get one a each a .44 Rem 1858 and an 1851 Colt Navy .36. You'll have 2 calibers covered and two fine specimen to test.
I'm a Rem man that has alot of Colts too. 8O)

 

[Fingers McGee]

BC,

Get with those pards you saw last weekend and I'm sure they'll give you the benefit of their experiences with C&Bs; as well as let you try out their hardware. Try as many as you can. That will help you decide on what make/model/caliber C&B is right for you.

I favor the 2nd Generation Colt 1851/61 Navies; but have other makes & models that I shoot from time to time as well.

BTW, where r u located?

FM
Central Ozarks, MO

 

[J.T. Gerrity]

First of all, welcome to the black side. If you've been bitten by the Holy Black, you've come to the right place; we'll be happy to corrupt you as much as possible.

To start, let's get some basic terminology down. It's actually the 1858 Remington (which is really the 1863 model) and the 1851 Colt Navy (which is actually the 1850 Ranger model). Clear as mud? Yess....

There are no real "issues" with the open-top models. They are more easily torn down for cleaning than the Remingtons, but are slightly more cumbersome when changing out the cylinders. Folks who like the Remingtons like to think they're "stronger" because of the top strap, but this is more a matter of perception than actual truth; the open-tops are quite rugged and, after all, the design is over 170 years old (I mean, how long does it take before a design is considered proven? 190 years? 200? If so, we'd all better go back to horses 'cause that Auto-mobile thing is likely to turn out to be a dud). There are a fair number of the originals still out there and going strong.

Some like to say that they are less accurate because the rear sight is in the hammer "nose", and the barrel is located by a couple of pins in the frame and a wedge that can be stretched or otherwise battered. Tell that to Wild Bill Hickok, acknowledged as the "premier shootist" of the old west, and he did it all with a pair of .36 calibre Colt Navy pistols. He took out Dave Tutt at a range of 50 to 75 yards; in his line of work, you were either accurate or you were dead. The open-tops will be accurate enough for anything you are attempting to do, and I can guarantee that...

I don't think you can go wrong getting the open-top Colt pistols. Just holding one in your hand you get a real sense of the history behind them; the Remingtons look much more modern in comparison...

The WALKER and Dragoons are heavy and cumbersome, but do "speak with authoritah". The Navy and Army are easy to look at and quite natural to use. If you're a stickler for authenticity, get one of the Ubertis or one of the "Colt Blackpowder" guns, as they are closer to the originals in size and configuration. The Piettas are less authentic, being somewhat over sized and covered with proof marks and other inscriptions, but are still excellent firearms.

 

[backline]

I had a Pietta open top (yes it had extra roll markings, etc).
Shot great, felt great ('51 Navy pattern in .44, which is not authentic), and was as accurate as my wifes M+P S&W .38 Special.

I've also had a Colt Walker, and .36 and .44 Remington ('58 Army) replicas.

Now, I don't shoot the amounts CAS guys do, but I think the Colt design is just as strong as the Remington.
That center post that takes the recoil is stouter than the frame around with its much smaller axle.

My only recommendation would be to stick with steel versions, not brass.
My Pietta had a brass backstrap handle, but the frame was steel.

It was a sweet shooter, and I enjoyed it more than the Remingtons, which for some reason were harder for me to shoot accurately.

I also shot out a brass '58 Rem Navy Arms. I still have it and it's sort of pretty, but eventually that frame stretched from the pounding if the recoil and it started shaving lead off the top of the balls as they entered the forcing cone after jumping the gap from the cylinder. Bound it up every shot. It's retired.

The Walker is like a broadside from the USS New Jersey: "FOOOOM!!!" and that smoke rolls out there and hangs everywhere, stinking out all those nitrous guys.

 

[owlhoot]

In cowboy action shooting there is a category for C&B shooters. You will shoot in a class called "Frontierman" You will also be obligated to shoot black powder loads in your shotgun and rifle.

This means that you will need to be able to load black powder cartridges and shotgun shells. You almost have to roll your own because BP ammo is ridiculously expensive if you buy over the counter.

You definitely don't want a Walker or one of the later dragoon models. Try carrying that much weight on a belt all day and you will understand why.

Open top revolvers are more prone to having spent caps jam up the action than are Remingtons. You will usually have to change out the nipples to guarantee a snug cap fit.

It is a hassle to reload your revolvers. A special place will be set aside for this and it is sometimes a good walk away. Other members on your "posse" will not much appreciate your not being available to assist with the various chores. Consequently most shooters will have at least two spare loaded but uncapped cylinders for each revolver. That way C&B shooters do not hold up their group and can reload all cylinders at lunch break.

I got tired of the C&B hassle after a year or so. I now use a pair of conversion revolvers. I still have the good looks and balance and the pleasure of shooting black powder, but I do it with cartridges, .44 Russian.

Uberti sells cartridge conversion models of both the Colts and Remington. With the Remington they also provide a percussion cylinder so you can switch between C&B and cartridge as the mood suits you.

Pietta is now doing much better work than has been the case in the past.

If I can be of any help to you, give me a PM.

 

[BCRider]

I'm up north of the 49th in BC. The city I'm in is part of the greater Vancouver urban sprawl out here on the North"Wet" coast about 2.5 hours north of Seattle.

I had a chance to talk to one of the cap and ball shooters but with the event running he had to go off and shoot and we never hooked up again. But they were a friendly group and I'm sure I'll get a chance to bend their ears pretty soon.

Thanks all for the info so far. If there's any other suggestions then keep 'em coming. The news about the Piettas being up to snuff these days is especially good. Up here they sell for about 2/3 the cost of the Ubertis. But the idea that they are not a faithful size to the originals puts me off a bit. Likely I'll just spend the bit more and opt for the Uberti.

My bad about the date reference on the Remington. Been looking at far too may sites with info on all the different guns and my grey cell is spinning...

I'm pretty new to shooting in general and I just dumped the next couple of months mad money on a couple of Thompson Center Encore rifles that a place had on a blowout sale. Tried a fellow's Encore and loved the single shot aspect.... sounds like a born natural for the old stuff, eh? But once the bank account recovers a bit it'll be time to get serious about which option I go with.

I can get an older stock Pietta 1860 army in steel frame and brass backstrap for $300 plus taxes and shipping so I suspect I'll go that route. Then depending on how I like it I'll either go with a mate for it or opt for the Remington option.

I was recently watching Clint in a scene from Pale Rider and when I saw him swap cylinders in the shootout scene my jaw just about hit the floor knowing what I had just seen. Heck, I could do a cylinder swap in a CA stage and still not suffer much of a time penalty compared to the folks that holster the first revolver and grab for the second pistol.

Anyhow thanks for all the info so far. I'd still enjoy hearing from anyone else's experiences as well.

 

[CaptainCrossman]

BCRIDER:

I have owned 1851 Navy 36 cal Euroarms, 1858 Rem 44 cal Navy Arms/Uberti for about 25 years now- both C&B

The Remington will ingest full cylinders of pyrodex, FF, and FFF black and spit it out- and never miss a beat. It has a stronger hand/trigger/bolt turning mechanism than a Colt open top, and will get a little more sticky as you shoot it, but doesnt' jam. The caps tend to fall to the right side and not get stuck in the action, like happens with the Colt. The Rem is still a tight gun cylinder/barrel to this day, after 25 years of brutal shooting. I ignore the loading data and fill the cylinders with black, and pack a ball in- and grease the tops of each cylinder to prevent chainfire- and go. It's a very reliable gun. I did change the nipples to stainless steel so they won't flatten out.

The Colt 1851 is the opposite- it was a Christmas gift back when- with brass frame- the brass frame shot loose almost immediately, even though using recommended book loads- then it pulled the cylinder pin out of the frame. I had to buy a replacement steel frame from CVA, and rebuild the gun. Now it stays together and is tight like the Remington, and will shoot full cylinders of black/pyrodex too- but tends to jam a lot- practically every cylinder or other shot will create a cap jam. This is a real PITA because the cap falls down into the action, behind the cylinder, or in the void just ahead of cocked hammer. Open top Colts also tend to foul the cylinder pin, creating a jammed cylinder that requires taking it apart/cleaning after 2 or 3 cylinders at best.

Last week I bought an 1861 Navy cartridge conversion Colt in 44 Colt cal, an ASM sold by Traditions. BIG improvement over the 1851 C/B gun. I bought 100 rounds of Black Dawge BP ammo from Midway, and ran 72 rounds through it, before it needed to be disassembled/cleaned because cylinder was starting to stick. After cleaning the cylinder pin with a rag, we fired off the remaining ammo.

So experience showed me, that for C-B shooting the Remington is the best, and if you want a RELIABLE Open Top Colt that actually shoots and doesn't jam, get a cartridge conversion model. Even my 10-year old noticed and said "a lot better than cap and ball". I bought this one because it was a replica of the Richards First conversion, with rear sight on the conversion ring, which is way better than using the rear sight in the hammer of the Richard II transition, or Richards-Mason, or previous model year Colt C-B guns.

Another good choice would be the cartridge 1871 Open Top, with rear sight on the barrel, just ahead of the cylinder. It has a solid barrel lug, no cutout for loose powder/ball, which makes it stronger- and a gas ring to prevent cylinder pin jamming/fouling.

Some of the previous posting info in this thread is not historically correct. The early Colt C-B guns were actually a weak design- they were not as "proven" as one would believe- they went out of production in 1872 due to problems and competition- and that's why the open tops were abandoned, and Colt went to the Peacemaker with topstrap. This is because the US Army refused to buy the 1871 Open Top, and chose the Smith & Wesson instead, with topstrap. The Open Top lost a in competition against Remington and S&W. During the Civil War soldiers preferred a top strap design over an open top, if they could get it. The reason the Colt open tops were/are so popular, was their good looks, and the fact that when they were first released, the only other option was a single shot flintlock or c/b gun. The Colt was designed to reload by changing out the cylinder, rather than reloading only one shot.

but...as we all know, that cylinder wedge doesn't come out easy and quickly enough, to change cylinders- it binds against the barrel after being fired. I take a small hammer with me to the range, to tap the wedge out and disassemble/clean the Colts.

Technically speaking, the best designed Colt open top is the 1871 for jam-free shooting- with gas ring seal on cylinder- it was the pinnacle of open top design- the last model, before they were abandoned. The later Colt Peacemakers has a sleeve that protected the cylinder pin.

The best "looking" open tops IMHO were the Richards and R-M conversions, i.e. the conversion ring adds character to the guns.

If you want a deal on BP-CB-cartridge guns, hit the gun shows. I passed on an unfired CVA 1860 Army that looked like brand new, for only $135. Got the cartridge gun NIB unfired for only $400, about $100 less than they go for new now. Last weekend I saw Rogers/Spencer for $100, 1851 Navy for $200. A local shop here has a Uberti Cattleman BP CB for only $250. IMHO $300 for a new gun is too much, unless it's a Walker/Dragoon/cartridge gun. I'm seeing a lot of ginned up BP pistol prices lately- take your time, choose carefully, you'll get a used one for only $200 or less.

 

[AdmiralB]

I think the Colt design is just as strong as the Remington.
That center post that takes the recoil is stouter than the frame around with its much smaller axle.

How are we defining 'stronger'?

I read a lot of posts in defense of the Colt-style talking about how big the arbor is, and how the cylinder pin is small on Remingtons. People who say that are forgetting that on Colts, the arbor is stressed - the longitudinal forces trying to pull the gun apart are exerted upon it.

On the Remington, those forces are exerted on the frame, and the pin just serves to locate the cylinder...there's no load on it at all.

Having said that, the real weakest point on the Colt design is probably the arbor/frame interface - if you put a Colt frame on a tensile test rig, I think it's almost certain that the arbor would pull out of the frame before the arbor itself deformed.

Likewise on the Remington, the barrel threads are probably weaker than the frame. But in both cases I suspect that the construction methods are more than sufficient for several (human) lifetimes of shooting, with no appreciable ill effects.

I see two potential issues with the Colt design, though - the wedge/barrel/arbor interface almost certainly will show wear over time. Yes, it'll probably take a while, and it's not hard to repair, but it's something the Remingtons won't ever develop.

Also, the Colt design isn't nearly as strong in shear - so, if you use your revolver to drive nails, buy a Remington!

 

[pohill]

OR

 

[A. Walker]

Lots of information coming down here, some of it good and some not so good. I would ignore the exaggerated hyperbole of some ("caps jam every other shot" - please!) and concentrate on what you want. The fact of the matter is that the Remington people will tell you the Colt open tops are inherently weak, and the Colt people will point out the poor cylinder pin design on the Remingtons, but it's all hogwash based on personal bias. Either gun, properly cared for, will last more than a lifetime and give you (and your heirs) many hours of enjoyment. You want an open top Colt? Then, by all means buy one and forget the nay sayers. You won't regret it. Besides, it will only be the first of many BP guns you acquire, and that's something we all can agree on!

 

[Mike OTDP]

If you want a gun for serious precision work, get one with a solid frame. That way, the front and rear sights hold alignment. Walk down the line at a World Muzzle-Loading Championships, and you will find that the breakdown is about 85% Remington, 10% Rogers & Spencer, 5% Colt.

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

BCRider....North of the 49th.! I was up there the other day. Went all the way to White Horse. You don't hear '49th paralell' too much down in the 48. I'm the only one I'vd ever heard use it..Most people just say 'going to Canada'...

 

[Old Fuff]

Colt's first revolvers dated from 1836, and they stuck to the open-top style until about 1872. Later styles of revolvers such as those made by Remington didn't come along until about 1860 because Colt's patents blocked them from doing so. Thus later designers could look backward at the “Colt experience,” and incorporate improvements.

Given the number of original Colt open-top revolvers that are still around and in shootable shape I'd say they were durable enough - at least for they're intended purpose. They also had the advantage of providing an escape route for powder fouling so they might keep ticking longer without requiring cleaning.

Later designs, such as the Remington that had a solid frame with the barrel screwed into it were more accurate, but excluding target shooting I'm not sure they more accurate to the degree that it mattered. I have seen both original Colt's and tuned replicas that could cut cloverleaf one-hole groups at 25 yards if the shooter had the skill to do it.

To me, it boils down to a matter of history. Both were an important factor in our country's development during the 1850's and the later Civil War and early post-war period. I enjoy shooting both, and the extra challenge that the Colt style may demand for maximum accuracy. With either kind of six-guns modern steel has made the issue of durability moot.

I will suggest that those with serious shooting in mind avoid those with brass frames, partly because I have found that the internal workmanship on many of them is poor because that are made to sell at the lowest price-point. I believe that the makers go on the theory that most of them will become wall-hangers and seldom, if ever be fired. They are constructed accordingly.

 

[CaptainCrossman]

A.Walker- if you load a Colt open top C-B gun with any decent amount of powder, yes, the caps DO jam, and every cylinder full will jam and least once, most likely more. This is a common problem with Colts.

Many Colt owners are only putting 12-15 grains of powder "squib loads" in their guns, because any more than that, the guns are falling apart, and jamming up.

While I'm filling my Rem 58 cylinders to full w/38 grains, with no ill effects

the problems with Colts jamming from caps is nothing new, there is a detailed fix requiring a pin to stop the cap from coming back off the nipple, and relieving the recoil sheild more with a grinder

but bottom line is, Colts are not as strong- this is a common, well know fact among gunsmiths, and this is why the US Army turned down the Open Top in 1971, in favor of the S&W break open guns, and the Remington new cartridge conversions. This sent Mason from Colt back to the drawing board- to design the 1873 SAA Colt Peacemaker.

now, THAT is the gun that "stood the test of time", the Peacemaker

not the open tops !

And I'm stating this as the proud owner of 2 Colt open tops, one I bought last week for $400. There's a tendency for people to not want to admit, what they paid money for is inferior- but if I bought into that mindset, I'd by lying to the OP. My new Colt Conversion 44 Colt open top for $400, is nowhere near as strong as my Remington Navy Arms kit gun made by Uberti, that I paid $87 for from Kmart, back in 1981.

it's all in the design- topstraps are stronger. Open tops are inherently weaker. More to follow

 

[CaptainCrossman]

Colts jamming from caps

Colts jam- a lot- enough so that this fella came up with his own fix. My 1851 jams constantly. Either it's getting converted to 38 short-long Colt, or I have to do this.

www.theopenrange.net/articles/colt_cap_and_ball.pdf

MAKING A COLT CAP AND BALL REVOLVER WORK

By Utah, SASS #11601

Does your Colt cap and ball revolver eat spent caps, jam up, and cause you to wonder why you bought this gun? You were warned,you know. But you said,"If they could shoot them, I can shoot them." It seems even the best shooters at Winter Range were having Colt cap jamming problems based on what I heard from one of the top shooters. How many times have you seen a shooter shaking his Colt upside down or using a small tool to pry the cap from under the hammer? Their stage times could be measured with a sundial,and the look on their face isn't pretty. Some shooters say the cap problem is all part of the dark side, so live with it. I say it's about time we figured out
how to fix the problem.

I don t know why, but no one to my knowledge has come up with an easy, cheap way to reliably keep the fired caps from jamming up the works. When I say an easy, cheap way, I mean one the average handyman can do with the simple tools most have in our homes. If you can take your Colt all apart and clean it or replace a part, you can certainly fix the cap problem.

I have heard of two solutions. The first was to buy nipples that are supposed to have optimum sized holes that restrict blow back. This is supposed to reduce the number of caps that blow off and jam up the works. Some say it works 90 to 95% of the time. I heard they sold a big bunch of them at Winter Range. That one jammed gun once or twice in a match.They may help, but that sure don't bring smiles to anyone's face.

The second solution required machining and reshaping parts and/or installing wedges or springs, regular machine shop work. This machine work seems to me to be more than this cowboy could do cheaply with a few simple tools.

Last month I bought a Colt 1862 police revolver. The unfired caps stayed on, but the fired caps came back and jammed up the gun. Neither of the above solutions seemed to be the complete answer to the problem. But, being a belt and suspender person when it comes to my guns, I got on the computer and ordered some of those special nipples. But, I was not really happy. I want my guns to operate reliably every time.

So, after cleaning the gun, I sat at my workbench, and holding the gun in both hands pointing it away from me, I pulled the hammer back slowly to see exactly what happens. The hammer came back about inch and rose up in a slight arc that opened a rather large space curving down into the works before the cylinder began to turn. This meant that during the time the hammer was coming back before the cylinder turned, any cap coming off the nipple would fall in the hammer space and either stay to be jammed under the hammer on the next shot, or fall down the curved surface into the works, locking up the hammer. There was the cause of one problem, but not the whole problem with fired caps coming off the nipples.

I put a cap loosely on a nipple, continued to turn the cylinder, gently pushed the cap off, and watched it jam between the nipple or the cylinder proper and the back plate in several places. Yes I know, there is a curved groove on the right side. The manufacturers put that there just like the originals. But, it is more ornamentation than functional, and is not big enough or shaped correctly.

Because little attention is paid to this area, caps will stick and cause the cylinder to bind, causing the black cloud around the gun to turn blue. This problem is really rather easy to fix. It just takes a little time and patience.

The solution to problem number one is to keep the caps from entering the frame's hammer opening when the hammer comes back. I arrived at my simple, cheap solution in the following manner. I removed the barrel and cylinder. I then turned the gun in my hand and looked at the hammer opening in the frame and the hammer face. The hammer face has a slot in it. Damn, I got it! I remembered Bad Hombre showing me how he put a small pin in the shortened barrel of his 1860 Colt for a front sight. If I could put a pin in the cent er of the opening in the frame, let's say 1/64th of an inch inside the opening that would fit (width and height) in the hammer slot, as the hammer came forward and hit the cap, it would block the cap coming off the nipple from entering the hammer opening as the hammer moved back.

The slot in the hammer is not deep enough, so the slot has to be cut back into the hammer so when it comes forward, the pin has clearance. Now when the hammer comes back, it clears the pin, and any cap coming off the nipple is blocked from entering the hammer opening. It falls and is wiped by the cylinder into the open slot in the back plate. Wow, it sounds like it would work. So, get the tools out and get to work.

Okay, maybe drilling a tiny hole in the hammer opening won't hurt the gun too much, but what about the hammer? Could ruin it. My answer is simple--call Dixie Gun Works and for $12.50 get a new hammer to work on. I did, and then I worked on the one that came with the gun. I now have a spare that works if I need it.

All you need are some hand tools, a drill, and a dremel tool. Disassemble the gun. Select a small diameter drill bit that fits easily in the slot in the hammer face. Chuck up the hammer in a vise, and using a small cut off disk on your dremel, extend the slot back about an inch or so using your drill bit as a guide,making sure it moves easily in the slot.If you don .t have a small drill bit or the cut off disks,you may have to invest five or six dollars.If you don .t have a dremel,buy one. You will need it for the rest of your life once you use one.

Now reinstall the hammer, bring it forward, and mark the frame opening in the center of the hammer slot. Flip the hammer back and put the frame in a vice. Use a center punch to mark where you want to drill, about 1/64th of an inch from the edge. Drill your hole. Take the drill bit out of the drill, reverse it, and put it in the hole. Put a cap on a nipple, install the cylinder, line it up with the
drill bit, mark the drill bit at a point just below the top of the cap. Cut off the base end of the drill bit as marked with your dremel, and reinstall the new pin in the hole, base end first.

Close the hammer down, and with a small grinding wheel on the dremel, bring the pin down, if necessary, so it clears the slot when the hammer is fully forward.

If necessary, cut the slot in the hammer back some more. If the pin is not a snug fit, pull the pin out, and using a small hammer, offset the pin and reinsert in the hole. Put a cap loosely on a nipple, line it up, and gently pull the cap off. It should come back against the new pin and fall in the groove
on the right side. You have now blocked the hammer opening, and any cap coming off the nipple will fall off to the side as the cylinder rotates.

As caps fall or are moved to the groove on the right side, they may be wedged between the nipple or the cylinder and the base plate groove. Put a cap loosely on a nipple, shake it back off the nipple, rotate the cylinder, and if the cap looks like it touches both the cylinder or nipple and the back plate,
use a tapered grinding wheel on your dremel to remove metal till the cap falls free. Don't be afraid to open up this space, starting with the right side of the hammer opening. Check through the rotation „till the nipple gets to the bottom position.Don .t be afraid to take off metal any time it appears a cap may become wedged. This is not a bearing surface, and you must make sure the groove is opened enough so a cap will fall freely down and out of the gun when you shake it off the nipple. When you are finished, blue the area.

What do we do now? We reassemble the gun, gather up the makings, and go to the range. Load up, making sure the caps are on securely. A prior article in The Cowboy Chronicle covered sizing caps so they don .t fall off before being fired. Aim at the target, have faith, and fire five shots at a measured pace. Yes!! It works. Reload and now fire five shots as fast as you can. Yes!! It does indeed work! Do it again to your heart's content. Now,do the same thing to all of your Colt

revolvers and go to the next match ready to lay a real cloud of smoke on them.

 

[NobleSniper]

Hello, am also considering doing the CAS thing myself. Have a Uberti Walker with a Tucker and SHerrard Dragoon(confederate copy of the Colt 2nd model dragoon) on the way as well. Then will be,looking to get a brace of Uberti '51 Navy revolvers...... its been a interesting last few months. I have gone from kalashnikovs to Colt SAA's and am now picking up the black powder bug in a bad way

 

[CaptainCrossman]

gunsmithing guns of the old west

writeup- open top colts weak, even by 1870 standards

http://books.google.com/books?id=d6...X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#PPA163,M1

 

[Old Fuff]

this is why the US Army turned down the Open Top in 1971, in favor of the S&W break open guns, and the Remington new cartridge conversions. This sent Mason from Colt back to the drawing board- to design the 1873 SAA Colt Peacemaker.

Not so...

The Army had both Remington New Army and Colt 1860 Army's converted to metallic cartridge, and some reports that came in from the field prefered the Colts. The American Model Smith & Wesson was tested in small numbers, because of its quick reloading feature, but not adopted. The U.S. Navy had their 1851 Navy revolvers converted to metallic cartridge and used them until 1888. Last but not least, Colt continued to sell metallic cartridge open-top models into the mid-1880's.

Of course later designed solid-framed revolvers are stronger, and likely more accurate to a small degree. But it was the Colt's with all their faults that wrote most of the history. Yes, when it comes to shooting they can present an extra challenge - but that's part of the fun, as is mastering a revolver that our great grand-parents and great-great-grandparents used, and did so sucessfully.

 

[CaptainCrossman]

Army refused open top design 1871

this issue of open top vs. top strap is as old as dirt- it was debated 140 years ago, and it's a moot debate- a top strap design is far stronger, and more durable than an open top- the US Army saw the light, and simply refused to adopt any more Colt firearms, unless the Open Top design was dropped, and a new design from Colt was made that was more like the Remington top-strap type- this is documented history the US Army literally sent Mason back to Colt's drawing board in haste. No contest in the open top vs. Remington for reliability, Remington wins that every time- and has been winning it for 140 years now. The Colt open top needs to be tweaked, fiddled with, etc. to be made to shoot half good, but still will not ever be as strong/reliable as a top strap like Rem, Peacemaker.

proof- Colt made the Peacemaker instead

one issue- the Colt open top is better looking ! sorta like a hot blonde wife that refuses to cook, clean, do laundry, or work... I'm convinced the best thing to do with an open top, is convert it to cartridge- but I haven't tried the Walker or Dragoons yet.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_7_49/ai_102274463/

Colt brought forth their first cartridge-firing sixgun with the 1871-1872 OpenTop. This was not a conversion but actually built from the factory to fire cartridges.

Genesis Of The Peacemaker

It was at about this same time the Army conducted tests to adopt a new revolver. Colt submitted their Open-Top. The Army sent Colt back to the drawing board with two suggestions. They wanted a solid-frame revolver and a caliber larger than the .44 Colt of the Open-Top.

 

[A. Walker]

CC, you sure are coming on strong (and wrong) for a new poster. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, but there it is. I don't seem to have the same problems with any of my guns as you do... even the brass ones. All I can figure is that you must be doing something wrong. Welcome, anyway...

 

[BCRider]

This is taking on all the trappings of a Ford vs Chevy debate....

To give CC his due I think it's fair to say that he's right about the top strap vs open top issue. After all if there wasn't an advantage then the closed frame Remingtons and Colts would not have taken over so completely.

Still, the info here has encouraged me to go with at least one open top once the BP buying spree begins. Perhaps not as my first purchase but certainly at some point. For me a big part of the fun is making things work that go counter to the accepted path used by the masses.

As for price being up in Canada means I don't always have access to the seller's market that you folks in the US have. The one good part is that I've seen references to cap and ball BP firearms not being controlled by US Customs for export like modern firearms are. If this is the case then I don't need to jump all the expensive hoops to buy a BP C&B gun from down south. That would help a lot. Gotta look into that a bit more to confirm the steps.

But really for new prices our stores up this way aren't bad. Some of the cost increase is due to the exchange rate and some to the import duty differences. But when I factor that out the Uberti and Pietta prices I'm looking at for new pretty much match the US prices to within a very small difference. A small enough difference that it's easier to deal with Canadian sources.

That link to the anti jam article is a good one. Copied for future reference. Thanks for that one CC.

 

[pohill]

Concerning A. Walker's post above (#11) - well said.
I have owned Remingtons, in .36 & .44, and they bind and jam. I have a Colt 3rd Generation .36 that never, ever jams. Never.
Then there's the Ruger...it's in a class of its own.
But, I still like the Colts.

 

[Old Fuff]

I’m not disputing that the Remington New Army/Colt Single Action Army revolvers were stronger then the earlier Colt open-top revolvers. It shouldn’t come as a surprise that later designs offered improvements over older ones. At the same time I would point out that open-top revolvers didn’t disappear the minute later platforms were introduced.

But I don’t see this as being important within the context of the original poster’s questions. He wants to participate in SASS, which is a fun game.

Besides the shooting part, SASS also promotes the history behind the guns, and cap & ball revolvers are an important part of that. More so, within the period that lasted from 1836 When Colt revolvers were first offered, to the early 1870’s when their popularity started to decline in favor of those using metallic cartridges, Colt open-top revolvers for all practical purposes dominated the era. Clearly, in celebrating the history, Colt’s revolvers shouldn’t be ignored simply because they weren’t the strongest or the most accurate, especially when they were (and are) strong enough, and any difference in hand-held accuracy may not be enough to matter except in a precision target match.

So it boils down to shooting whichever you like (or think you like) best.

Unfortunately, I like them all…

 

[madcratebuilder]

CC, you sure are coming on strong (and wrong) for a new poster. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, but there it is. I don't seem to have the same problems with any of my guns as you do... even the brass ones. All I can figure is that you must be doing something wrong. Welcome, anyway...

+1
Hyperbole.

CC, your experiences are totally opposite of any of mine in forty years of shooting.

I'm trying to think when the last time I had a jam, I think it was my Ruger , of all the guns to jam, that would be the last one you would expect. The jam was my own fault, loose cap.