Remington Versus Colt Revolvers

[Old Stumpy]

Again ? That trick never works.

Hokey Smokes!

 

[jax katz]

Hokey Smokes!

And as our friend pulls a Colt revolver out of his hat he exclaims, “no doubt about it. Gotta get another hat. “

 

[Old Stumpy]

If they could have just combined the solid frame top strap design and quickly removable cylinder of the Whitney/Remington with the grip frame shape and ratchet and pawl of the Colt, and then produced it as a metallic cartridge revolver.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Ok guys . . . watch! Nuthin up my sleeve . . .

Old Stumpy, I believe Pietta makes that Revolver. It's the "Alcamista" sold by EMF.
(Close anyway)


Presto !!!!

Mike

 

[jax katz]

How is Colt’s model 60 in cylinder strength ? Did they sacrifice cylinder strength for the large arbor ? Or is the cylinder and spacing larger ? I know walkers were prone to fracture the cylinder walls but it was different metal and could carry almost twice the cylinder charge.
@45 Dragoon , Mike, do you see many exploded or cracked colt cylinders ?

 

[45 Dragoon]

I've never seen any in person. I think the only way you'll mess one up today is with smokless.

Comparing a '60 (Uberti) and a Pietta REM.'s cylinders, they are the same dia., the wall thickness between the chambers is the same as well as the chamber to outside. The Rem. cyl is slightly longer over all but the chamber depth is basically the same (measured from cyl face to base of nipple). I know the Pietta Rem. is on a larger scale and not sure if it carry's over to the cylinder so I'm not sure about the Uberti product (I'm sure I have one in the shop and can check it). I know the original Rem is even smaller than Uberti's but not sure (again) if the cyl is scaled down as well . . . maybe someone that knows already will chime in.

One thing that got me a little in the video comparison, the guy didn't point out the "keeper" spring on the wedge. That is the sole purpose of that spring, to catch the head of the wedge screw . . . so you don't loose it! And he pulls it all the way out anyway!! Not really a huge deal but, if you're going to point these type things out, do it right. And again, the wedge driven in will not get loose (or fall out . . .) unless you have a short arbor and the originals didn't, but the copies do.

Oh, as to the Walker cyls. I believe historians have attributed their failings mainly to the loading of the Pickett bullets backwards. So, bad material + user error = broke cyls!!
(Hokey smokes!!)

Mike

 

[jax katz]

The Remington base pin is flat on the bottom so you can pull the pin and drop the cyl. Otherwise you'd have to unscrew the loading lever screw to remove the pin.

My understanding is that on the early models you could pull the pin out and drop and lose it just like a wedge. The new army model went through many tweeks , some of which they reverted to the old way, since the first Remington Beals 1858 model . Being able to remove the pin is one . I don’t know if it had a flat side or not. Maybe that was another tweek. Either it was flat all the way down or they relocated the screw or my source is wrong.

on the walkers, I also read that bullets were sometimes loaded backwards but did not attribute all of the failures to that. In fact they stated it low key in that it mostly happened when someone was scared or hurried but usually both. They attributed the failure mostly on metal of the day and 60 grain charges. Jax

 

[Old Stumpy]

on the walkers, I also read that bullets were sometimes loaded backwards but did not attribute all of the failures to that. In fact they stated it low key in that it mostly happened when someone was scared or hurried but usually both. They attributed the failure mostly on metal of the day and 60 grain charges.

When you think about it these were the first Colt revolvers produced after his Paterson company failed.
They were a completely new design outsourced to the Whitney Arms Company for manufacture, and only 1100 were made.
While a hand-made prototype or two might have seemed strong enough, it would have been hard to know if the factory made guns would all have equal quality wrought iron cylinders capable of withstanding the 60 grain charge.
The Dragoons used a 40 grain charge, and while shortening the cylinder (and barrel) had a lot to do with making the revolver a more practical size, it also solved the rupture problem.

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

I exchange cylinders on my Remingtons while horseback, all the time - even at a lope. It's easy if done properly - from the right.

Hold the reins in your teeth, hold the cylinder in your left hand and bring the frame down over the cylinder, center it with your left fingers and slide the pin home with your right. With enough practice ol' grandma could do it in her sleep. Be willing to learn, Katz.

I love my Colt & Remington repros equally. They are what they are. Over comparison of the two leads to false dichotomies. Relax. Go shooting.

 

[expat_alaska]

Try that with a Colt and you may lose the wedge, barrel, and cylinder. Remington revolvers did not occur until late in the ACW, so most of the revolvers in the ACW were Colts.

This is why folks like the Missouri "bushwackers" carried multiple pistols on their persons and in saddle pommel holsters. The fastest reload is a second (or more) gun. Still true today.

Here is just one instance:

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/the-death-of-little-archie-clements.140926/#post-1702785

I don't buy the spare loaded/capped cylinder exchange proposition in the ACW. It is pure bunk.

Regards,

Jim

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

Expat - I have never seen any primary source materials that indicated the old timers swapped cylinders. Still looking and welcome any cites.

Swapping cylinders on a Colt seems absurd.

 

[expat_alaska]

Expat - I have never seen any primary source materials that indicated the old timers swapped cylinders. Still looking and welcome any cites.

Swapping cylinders on a Colt seems absurd.

And I don't think you will find any. Spare cylinders must have been a rarity. They must have come from a captured revolver, so why not use the revolver wherein they were procured? There are a few modern comments on some sites that point to special cased revolvers having spare cylinders as "proof" that spare cylinders were available to the rank and file in the ACW. Most are cased sets used as reference, which is absurd in my mind as to proof that they were available for troops. Captured revolvers by Confederate troops would have used the entire revolver, and not parted out.

I still think that any Confederates using these revolvers in a mounted guerilla or cavalry situation would have many within their personal reach. To think otherwise IMO is folly.

Regards,

Jim

 

[arcticap]

Expat - I have never seen any primary source materials that indicated the old timers swapped cylinders. Still looking and welcome any cites.

Swapping cylinders on a Colt seems absurd.

This was posted in May: --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...l-concealed-carry.865106/page-5#post-11501336

 

[jax katz]

Be willing to learn, Katz.

i am willing to learn I just want to get right the first time. A month ago I Knew absolutely zero about antique pistols or BP shooting.
Question.... how many threads per inch on the arbor and how many threads in the frame engage with it ? On a colt 1860 model.

 

[John Joseph]

FWIW Pony Express riders would swap cylinders on their Colts. IIRC they carried 1851 Navys.

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

You bet! Orphans preferred.

 

[jax katz]

Alexander Majors gave a Bible to each Pony Express employee, including riders, and made each man pledge not to swear, drink, or fight. Because every extra ounce slowed their progress, riders did not carry their Bibles with them. Some did not even carry guns. They relied on the speed of their horses to whisk them out of trouble.https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Mochilla.jpg
Kit Carson was not a rider and was in his 50s. bill kickok was a stock tender, and only buffalo bill was a rider of the three. You couldn’t weigh over 125lbs. Because of weight restrictions I am sure they did not carry extra cylinders. Some sections might have required some sort of personal protection but others did not with a fresh fast horse and stations every ten miles. The stations needed more protection than the riders.
https://postalmuseum.si.edu/exhibition/pony-express-romance-versus-reality


the picture you posted is not accurate. Your profile looks much more accurate. For one thing his mail bag, called a Mochilla should as below.



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Mochilla.jpg

the riders looked more like this...

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

Those guys look old for Pony Express.

 

[jax katz]

Those guys look old for Pony Express.

I thought so too, and a little heavy. I don’t know when the photo was taken. It may have been some sort of reunion but they are...
"Billy" Richardson, Johnny Fry, Charles Cliff, & Gus Cliff
I don’t know why I made this and the previous post, they seem argumentative and out of line. My only point was supposed to be that these things are often romanticized and inaccurate. Weight was at a premium and a slow horse might be worse than 6 or 12 shots (or 5 and 10 ) I also got rider weight wrong. It was 120 max. The max load for the horse was limited to 165 lbs. The mail bags only carried 20lbs of mail. So that is 140 without tack and gear. The mail bag itself was heavy leather with locks and quite large. All that said , if they could roll a smoke on horseback they could probably change a cylinder at a gentle canter. Some carried a gun and some didn’t. The job was advertised to young men “willing to risk their life” and i believe it was more like a gauntlet run to the riders. It was a high paying job that appealed to a poor adventurer who might not have owned a sidearm, at least until he started working.
[ Riders were issued a Bible, a horn to alert employees at stations of their approach, a rifle, two Colt revolvers and ammunition for self defense. However, every ounce of weight slowed delivery, so riders were eventually issued just a single revolver."Buffalo Bill Days History". Sheridan Heritage Center. ]
https://truewestmagazine.com/death-defying-riders-pony-express/
Contrary to myth, Pony Express riders weren't speeding across the landscape in cowboy hats wearing fringe-covered buckskins and toting guns. They were trying to minimize the weight their horse had to carry in every way, including in their dress. In Roughing It, Mark Twain (who, we should note, was not always known for his adherence to the truth) described seeing a rider for the Pony Express speed by wearing clothes that were "thin, and fitted close; he wore a 'round-about,' and a skull-cap, and tucked his pantaloons into his boot-tops like a race-rider."
Twain goes on to say that the rider was unarmed. "He carried nothing that was not absolutely necessary, for even the postage on his literary freight was worth five dollars a letter," he wrote.

 

[jax katz]

One more thing about extra cylinders for pony express riders was if they carried a loaded, capped cylinder and shot him self or his horse , the mail doesn’t get through. One of the owners, I think it was an owner or a postal official, exclaimed that the mail was worth more than the horse and the rider.

 

[Tommygunn]

Sincerely ....I ....thought Pony Express riders carried the Colt 1848/49 .31 caliber revolvers as they were small. I'm sure they "traveled light" considering that horses don't have turbochargers( ) and speed was "part of the job."

Possibly if they were armed it was with their personal owned guns? Those .31s were very popular back then .....

 

[kell]

I like 'em both, I shoot 'em both. They both feel good, different but good. I like the feel of the 1860 Colt slightly better, but 1858 Remington is great. Walker Colt? I feel like Abraham Lincoln holding an ax straight out, big ole gun, but a hoot to shoot. Shoots high til you get to 100 yards. Thats to far for me anyway.

 

[woodnbow]

i am willing to learn I just want to get right the first time. A month ago I Knew absolutely zero about antique pistols or BP shooting.
Question.... how many threads per inch on the arbor and how many threads in the frame engage with it ? On a colt 1860 model.

18 tpi and there are five threads engaged. On modern pistols apparently loc tite is used. Once installed a pin is driven in to lock the arbor against rotation.

 

[jax katz]

18 tpi and there are five threads engaged. On modern pistols apparently loc tite is used. Once installed a pin is driven in to lock the arbor against rotation.

Thanks. Are you saying the part of the frame that the arbor screws into has 5 threads also?,

 

[45 Dragoon]

Yes, the arbor is torqued into place, then the barrel assy should be installed with the wedge driven in. Next, an oversized staking pin is driven in to lock the arbor in place. Trim the pin, file it flush with the frame. The arbor will be flush with the frame as well. If the arbor is new, it may need some minor filing to get it flush.

Mike