Timradcliffe345
member
Rob:
What is the range to those targets?
Optics or iron sights?
Shooting position?
Thanks.
What is the range to those targets?
Optics or iron sights?
Shooting position?
Thanks.
Opinion - Best AR15
- Thread starter Martyk
- Start date
- Status
The best AR is which ever model, and company you like best.
As far as the chart goes, it only refers to the M-4 carbine, and some of the information is incorrect on certain models.
If you go from one manufacturer to another and compare the features from other models (aside from the M-4) you will find that all of them are different in their content of those features in that chart. Examples 20 inch rifles, 24 inch rifles, Hbar models, heavy barrel carbines, CAR-15 models, pistol, etc etc etc.
If you look at colts aside from the M-4 you wont see alot of features the M-4 has on that chart. So take the chart for what it is and represents.
As mentioned above, a few companies actually make most or all of the parts used in most AR rifles, so there are less differences than is given credit for. No company which makes parts for such rifles makes different quality level parts for use, or sale to other companies, all are made the same on the same production lines, just different names are stamped into the commonly manufactured parts.
As far as the chart goes, it only refers to the M-4 carbine, and some of the information is incorrect on certain models.
If you go from one manufacturer to another and compare the features from other models (aside from the M-4) you will find that all of them are different in their content of those features in that chart. Examples 20 inch rifles, 24 inch rifles, Hbar models, heavy barrel carbines, CAR-15 models, pistol, etc etc etc.
If you look at colts aside from the M-4 you wont see alot of features the M-4 has on that chart. So take the chart for what it is and represents.
As mentioned above, a few companies actually make most or all of the parts used in most AR rifles, so there are less differences than is given credit for. No company which makes parts for such rifles makes different quality level parts for use, or sale to other companies, all are made the same on the same production lines, just different names are stamped into the commonly manufactured parts.
If that's the case then who are the "few companies" making the major components for the other brand names? Wouldn't it make sense to stay with the actual manufacturers?
Based on all the replies, there has been some great information offered. I'm interested in accuracy at some distance so I thinking a build your own, 18~20" HBAR, so far.
Based on all the replies, there has been some great information offered. I'm interested in accuracy at some distance so I thinking a build your own, 18~20" HBAR, so far.
Most of those companies aren't actually gunmakers. They're machine shops and forge houses the gun companies contract for parts. Very few gun manufacturers actually make all their parts in-house. Very few gun manufacturers even make most of their parts in-house. Things like forging steel and aluminum parts are extremely expensive to get started in, it makes much better business sense to contract out the parts to someone already tooled up for such an operation.
When I decided to sip the AR Kool-Aid once again I researched
the best general purpose upper that did not require a tax stamp.
It turns out that the best general purpose upper is the 16.0" barrel
with a mid length gas system. This information lead me to NOVESKE,
but there are several excellent 16.0" mid length uppers available
the best general purpose upper that did not require a tax stamp.
It turns out that the best general purpose upper is the 16.0" barrel
with a mid length gas system. This information lead me to NOVESKE,
but there are several excellent 16.0" mid length uppers available
I'm reading a lot of opinions about the 16" carbine. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around a 16" barrel for distance shooting and accuracy. I've been trained to think that the 18 ~ 20 is the better choice for accuracy. Let me define.. dime size groups at 100 yds.
Interesting.... I will consider this.
Here is a new thread with the RESULTS from this discussion...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5205211#post5205211
Here is a new thread with the RESULTS from this discussion...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5205211#post5205211
Couple of things...
First and foremost is that barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy, it has to do with velocity of the projectile. Higher velocity projectiles will fly "faster" and "further", thereby also being "flatter", but this will not affect group size and will only affect POI change at various ranges. Velocity will also affect how the bullet performs in soft targets since all bullets have a velocity floor, below which they no longer perform as designed and, when significantly below the floor, start punching 1/4" holes in things and not much else.
Wes Grant, of MSTN, has posted pictures on ar15.com of targets he's shot at distances of 100 yards (and over, IIRC) with Noveske stainless steel barrels in the 7.5" to 10.5" range. The accuracy of these barrels, for those that are used to thinking longer=more accurate, is astounding.
Second, 100 yards is not "distance shooting". We were just shooting at 4" steel plates at 100 yards at our last match and guys with iron-sighted AKs were hitting the plates. No, that's not dime-sized groups, but it's awfully good shooting and it illustrates my point. "Distance shooting", to me, begins at ranges past 200 yards. At 200 yards I can hit a 6" steel plate with XM193 using a 4 MOA Aimpoint. It's also the distance at which I prefer to zero all of my ARs.
Third, if shooting dime size groups at 100 yards, whether it's considered "distance shooting" or not is not the forte of the M4-pattern carbine. Even for a rifle like the Noveske N4 (which is probably capable of damn-near meeting your requirement) the rest of the feature set of the gun isn't what I would consider ideal for that kind of accuracy.
I'm working on putting together a precision AR on a lower that I have coming to me, and it will get a more stable stock than the Noveske and a better trigger, and that's just components in the lower itself.
which again, isn't to say that the Noveske N4 won't meet your accuracy requirement, just that it's probably not best suited to it. Noveske sells other rifles and barrels that would be more appropriate IMHO.
Finally (and this really should have been first), be careful what you wish for. Dime-sized groups at 100 yards are a special skill, forgetting entirely about the gear for a moment. You need to have the skill set to know how to pull that off so that you don't resort to blaming the gear/ammo/gun/wind/guy farting next to you on the line/etc. However, this kind of shooting IS gear specific, and that extends to the ammo as well as the rifle. I see guys at the range all the time shooting Wolf through 24" heavy bull barrel guns with 10x optics and can't for the life of me figure out what it is that they're after.
Rob: The Dime group @ 100 description is a benchmark. I completely understand and appreciate your comments on the discipline required to do that. To me developing that is part if the fun. But, as you acknowledge, ya gotta have the gun that can do it first.
We you've also helped (again) to shed light on another technicality. Accuracy as it relates to velocity and distance. I belong to a range with a 200 & 300 yd range. So you can see where I want to play.
The 16" sounds like fun, but realistically I have no practical need for the carbine length.
I'm looking at the Noveske 18" upper
We you've also helped (again) to shed light on another technicality. Accuracy as it relates to velocity and distance. I belong to a range with a 200 & 300 yd range. So you can see where I want to play.
The 16" sounds like fun, but realistically I have no practical need for the carbine length.
I'm looking at the Noveske 18" upper
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helz_mcfugly
Member
They are after tight groups they just dont know how to get them. beginners. or people who have been shooting for some time now who have never been told how to get those groups. I think alot of us were those guys at some point. i know i was. and everyone i know who starts shooting on the 100 yard + range right off the bat after buing their first hobby gun (black gun or other then hunting rifle). hell I just gave my brother one of my SKS's with a 9x scope on it and he started going to the range with me with his wolf ammo and asking why he cant even get close to a dinner plate size group sitting beside me as I shoot 1/4". well he knows now that ive explained it and is like "damnit, I dont have $1500 to put into a rifle and X amount for a reloading station". but yea. I see those guys every time I go to the range. doing this :banghead: while i sit humbley doing this
If I was after accuracy, and had no other requirements, and wanted to keep it "on the cheap", I think I'd go for one of the Savage models in .223, add a bipod and Super Sniper scope, and buy the best factory loads I could afford.
Or something like this that I think comes with a scope (probably not the best in the world, but still) for $600 or so.
If I was truly on a budget, I'd do the 10/22 thing. Endless amount of aftermarket parts and pieces, very inexpensive to actually shoot, and all kinds of great accuracy potential with the right tweaks.
Or something like this that I think comes with a scope (probably not the best in the world, but still) for $600 or so.
If I was truly on a budget, I'd do the 10/22 thing. Endless amount of aftermarket parts and pieces, very inexpensive to actually shoot, and all kinds of great accuracy potential with the right tweaks.
I think what you should really say is different spec'd parts. The parts probably are made on the same equipment but the specifications are a little different (like the material being used), in order to achieve different price points such as the market may dictate. The quality or consistency within a given specification range of parts is probably very good.
Any manufacturer, especially gun manufacturers can not afford to put out "crap" parts because if they fail, there is potential product liability.
Any manufacturer, especially gun manufacturers can not afford to put out "crap" parts because if they fail, there is potential product liability.
CMT is an excellent example of one maker offering different levels of product. As I understand it, they will sell you a bolt, for example, exactly how you want it ("you" in this case being another manufacturer placing an order). Shot peening, High Pressure Testing, and Magnetic Particle Inspection are all options, not standard. You choose the options you want and they produce the product you want. Alternatively, it is possible to buy a batch of shot-peened bolts from them and then have another company do the HPT and MPI so as to not cause any questions of conflict of interest (having one company both produce AND test the product is like having a contractor do his own building code inspections, or the fox guarding the henhouse, so to speak).
So, the all too common statement that "all the parts come from the same places" is correct, but it's not the whole story.
Additionally you run into assembly issues. You can I can buy one of the above bolts, an M16 carrier, a carrier key, and the screws, all from the same company. If you choose not to properly torque your bolts and choose to use red loctite on them, and I choose to properly torque them and stake the heads, one of us is doing it right and one of us is doing it wrong. Factor in different grades of bolts, that may or may not come from the initial supplier, and you start to introduce a lot of variables into the equation. The "all the parts come from the same place" statement is still true, but it's not the whole story. Assembly issues typically show themselves in the carrier key attachment, barrel attachment, and receiver extension attachment. Basically, anywhere that lube, torque, and staking may be critical. These things all cost money, and some makers would prefer to save the cash.
So, the all too common statement that "all the parts come from the same places" is correct, but it's not the whole story.
Additionally you run into assembly issues. You can I can buy one of the above bolts, an M16 carrier, a carrier key, and the screws, all from the same company. If you choose not to properly torque your bolts and choose to use red loctite on them, and I choose to properly torque them and stake the heads, one of us is doing it right and one of us is doing it wrong. Factor in different grades of bolts, that may or may not come from the initial supplier, and you start to introduce a lot of variables into the equation. The "all the parts come from the same place" statement is still true, but it's not the whole story. Assembly issues typically show themselves in the carrier key attachment, barrel attachment, and receiver extension attachment. Basically, anywhere that lube, torque, and staking may be critical. These things all cost money, and some makers would prefer to save the cash.
sounds to me like hesse/vulcan has been doing it for a while now.
specs do account for quality. 4140 is a different spec for a bbl used to save money. 4150 is a higher grade steel.
having an "out of spec" lower, that won't let mags drop free and that lets the pins walk, in my mind is of lower quality because it wasn't built to the standard. JMHO.
helz_mcfugly
Member
yea I got my kids Ruger 10/22's for x-mass and the AR style stocks, 25 rnd clips, bypod, and a 12x scope and they love them to death, I think its the perfect "first rifle" for a kid, hell or for an adult for that matter. those guns are more accurate then my kids are, and my kids are more accurate then some of the adults on the 50 yard lanes. I have a savage maco 17hmr that I havent altered at all and if the wind isnt blowing it will out shoot my AR with sub groups at 100 yards. I took target shooting with the AR platform on as my hobby after I retired from music. I spend most of my time on them. they are awesome rifles in all aspects to me. funest thing in the world to tinker with to me. My first rifle after retiring from music was a CETME 308. after finding I couldnt get sub groups (past 75 yards) with it I traded it for that savage then I almost went the way of the AK for my hobby gun, glad I didnt now. all my other rifles are just, shoot and clean guns. damn i get of subject so easy. lol
upgrades notwithstanding, I agree. But, CMMG is one of the few to MPI test their barrels, among other things. In my opinion the barrel is the most important part. The bolt can just be simply swapped out to fill in the voids left for CMMG. But thats just me.
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