Opinion Change - Safety Course Should Be Required

[ColoradoMinuteMan]

[QUOTEWouldn't you have to have a gun in order to take a safety course?

Doesn't do a lot of good to talk about something that you've never owned or even handled.

I belong to a private gun range and see some pretty clueless people show up to shoot on our one open to the public day every week. We have NRA certified safety instructors to help those people. They all have their own guns and ammo as we don't provide those.

Personally, I'm not in favor of anymore gov't intervention from the fed. If a state wants to pass a truck load of gun control I say have at it. If you don't like it, vote. If you vote and it still doesn't change you may be living in the wrong state.
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No gun needed here to take this class.
I work in a big box store as well and i do see people that are completely clueless about firearm ownership. However, the driving factor here in Southern California was the San Bernardino Terrorist incident. California does have a Firearms Safety Certificate requirement that requires you take and pass a 25 question test. You must also perform a safe handling demonstration before you can take possession. It is a simple show clearing, unloading reloading and using the safety on the weapon. We also have a handgun safety course, in house, run by an outside vendor who is a sheriffs deputy. The course covers legal aspects, types of weapons and ammo and safe handling and so on. The course also includes range time and basic instruction. Everyone I asked said they really liked the course and felt way more comfortable after and about a third take more advanced training. Newbies are paying $125 and feel they are getting their moneys worth.[/QUOTE]

 

[tipoc]

Turns out, your average gun buyer is a complete and utter imbecile.

Ain't you an average gun buyer too?

No thank you, we are surrounded by people we personally view as imbeciles, can't think of a test I'd have any faith in.

Aren't you one of the fellas surrounding someone else and therefore an "imbecile" as well?

If "the people" are imbeciles, ain't you a people too?

tipoc

 

[45_auto]

Turns out, your average gun buyer is a complete and utter imbecile.

No surprise there, same thing applies to your average internet gun forum poster as well.

50% of people are below average, whether they want to believe it or not!

 

[MondronT]

and then there's...

Not sure how other states handle it but here in good ol' virginia one has to be trained AND tested to hold a driving permit. Drive a mile or two down interstate 81 to see how well training and testing eliminate us idiots. Believe me, they are not all out of state drivers either.
More folks die in auto accidents in Va than from gun deaths accidental or otherwise.

 

[Kiln]

The problem with this is that if we were to allow a mandatory safety class who is to say that whatever classes individual states come up with won't be a significant barrier to gun ownership.

What is to stop states like California from saying:

"This a great idea but it doesn't go far enough. From this point forward individuals will need at least 40 hours of training in various safety courses before they can buy a firearm."

Then we could be looking at prolonged training programs specifically designed to keep people from going through the trouble to get a legal gun.

 

[Warp]

The problem with this is that if we were to allow a mandatory safety class who is to say that whatever classes individual states come up with won't be a significant barrier to gun ownership.

What is to stop states like California from saying:

"This a great idea but it doesn't go far enough. From this point forward individuals will need at least 40 hours of training in various safety courses before they can buy a firearm."

Then we could be looking at prolonged training programs specifically designed to keep people from going through the trouble to get a legal gun.

No matter how easy it is, it will still be a barrier to entry/ownership. It's still time, effort, and money...things not everybody has, not everybody is willing to spend, and things which either infringe upon the Right/turn the supposed Right into a mere privilege.

And doesn't stop people from doing things they shouldn't.

Last I saw, states that had required training/testing for a carry license actually had a higher rate of accidents from carriers than those that didn't, though it was not statistically significant.

It saddens me greatly how frequently I find supposedly gun/Rights supporting people arguing for stripping The People of their Rights.

 

[Kiln]

No matter how easy it is, it will still be a barrier to entry/ownership. It's still time, effort, and money...things not everybody has, not everybody is willing to spend, and things which either infringe upon the Right/turn the supposed Right into a mere privilege.

And doesn't stop people from doing things they shouldn't.

Last I saw, states that had required training/testing for a carry license actually had a higher rate of accidents from carriers than those that didn't, though it was not statistically significant.

It saddens me greatly how frequently I find supposedly gun/Rights supporting people arguing for stripping The People of their Rights.

I agree completely. I'm just saying that if the class were allowed, it'd never be enough for anti gunners.

 

[jlr1962]

Every range I have shot at has had safety rules that were either written, or on a mandatory video that you had to watch, and sign off on.
I am thankful for the "50 cal rated" lane dividers at the indoor range I use. I stopped shooting outdoor handgun ranges that do not have the lane dividers. If you watch shooters at any handgun range, you will see many with chambered round guns pointed 90 degrees to the firing line.

 

[ilbob]

the fact is that the rate of gun accidents is going down even though the rate of gun sales and gun ownership is going up.

I doubt you will improve much on that record with any kind of mandatory training.

 

[justice06rr]

It should be recommended for new shooters, but never required.

You can even offer discounts or coupons to for a safety/instructional training course if the buyer is a first time shooter/gun owner.

 

[ares338]

No licensing should ever be required to enjoy a constitutional right.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If you watch shooters at any handgun range, you will see many with chambered round guns pointed 90 degrees to the firing line.

Not to be picky, but a gun pointed at the target IS pointed 90 degrees to the firing line. You mean parallel to the firing line.

And dividers offer no protection from a bullet -- they are there to keep hot ejected brass from hitting nearby shooters.

 

[TimSr]

You do have to take a safety course to use said car on public roads.....

Yes, and this is why you never see morons or idiots driving cars on public roads.



I'll further suggest, though I have no statistics, that most gun "accidents" involved doing something that the person already knew was unsafe or stupid, and would have correctly tested on anyways.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Yes, and this is why you never see morons or idiots driving cars on public roads.

True. Why, it's been at least 15 minutes since I've seen a moron driving on the public road.

 

[RX-79G]

If there was no driver's education and test, are you guys saying that the roads would be just as safe as they currently are?

 

[hdwhit]

I used to be opposed to the idea of requiring people to pass a safety course before owning a firearm. Now, after being on this side of the counter and dealing with the general public, I have changed my opinion.

If done in concert with other changes to gun regulations, mandating a safety class prior to allowing someone to own guns would easily pass constitutional muster and could be a significant reduction in burden for gun owners.

Design the class to go over gun safety, hunting safety, conflict resolution, laws regarding use of force and first aid. The class would have both classroom and range sessions. People who completed the class would be given a gun license (like a drivers license) that would authorize them to purchase, possess and carry (concealed or openly) anything allowed by the state other than an NFA firearm or "destructive device". An advanced class and more rigorous background investigation could be implemented for those who wanted NFA weapons (sort of like a commercial driver's license). This would eliminate the need for separate hunter safety, concealed carry and similar classes/permits.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If there was no driver's education and test, are you guys saying that the roads would be just as safe as they currently are?

We are saying that the rate of accidental deaths due to firearms is so low that they would not be classed separately if it were not for the politics of the issue.

And that means that we have long passed the Point of Diminishing Returns -- safety classes would have no impact.

 

[RX-79G]

We are saying that the rate of accidental deaths due to firearms is so low that they would not be classed separately if it were not for the politics of the issue.

And that means that we have long passed the Point of Diminishing Returns -- safety classes would have no impact.

Than why did you compare it to driving, where accident rates are fairly high?

 

[cbnoble]

People who completed the class would be given a gun license (like a drivers license) that would authorize them to purchase, possess and carry (concealed or openly) anything allowed by the state other than an NFA firearm or "destructive device". An advanced class and more rigorous background investigation could be implemented for those who wanted NFA weapons (sort of like a commercial driver's license).

How is this different from advocating that we turn the RIGHT to keep and bear arms into the PRIVILEGE to keep and bear arms? If I have to go take a class and get a license to exercise my right is it really a right anymore? And is the process for owning NFA items going to be more stringent than it is today? I already have to send in photos and fingerprints in addition to the normal background check. Are we going to be subjected to a Top Secret clearance level investigation to own anything NFA?

I'm all for education, but I do not like the idea of converting a right into a privilege. I don't hear anyone advocating that you have your freedom of speech, religion, or to be free from unreasonable search and seizure should be privileges and not rights. Why are we willing to accept changing this one?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Take any "gun control" or "gun safety" proposal and turn it into a "vote control" proposal and see how it looks.

Should we have to have training before we can vote? Should we have to get a license to vote?

 

[Warp]

Not to be picky, but a gun pointed at the target IS pointed 90 degrees to the firing line. You mean parallel to the firing line.

And dividers offer no protection from a bullet -- they are there to keep hot ejected brass from hitting nearby shooters.

Depends on the dividers. Some certainly do have protection from bullets

 

[Warp]

If there was no driver's education and test, are you guys saying that the roads would be just as safe as they currently are?

1. Operating a motor vehicle on a public road is NOT specifically and explicitly protected from infringement by the Constitution of the United States...the Right to keep and bear arms IS.

2. Not everybody takes driver's education. When and where I grew up, it was not required to take any driver's education at all, and many did not.

3. The driving tests are a ridiculous joke in that they test virtually nothing and you need not be even close to competent to pass them.

4. People supposedly know not to drink and drive, not to speed, not to text and drive...but they still do those things and things like that are huge in roads being unsafe.

5. Operating a motor vehicle on a public road is NOT specifically and explicitly protected from infringement by the Constitution of the United States...the Right to keep and bear arms IS.


PS: The number of 'accidental' deaths to vehicles is greater than accidental firearms deaths. Far, far greater.

 

[danez71]

If there was no driver's education and test, are you guys saying that the roads would be just as safe as they currently are?

According to the Govt's #'s, unintentional firearm deaths dwarf vehicle deaths.

CDC statistics:

Unintentional firearms deaths, by rate, = .2

Peddle cyclist deaths, by rate is also .2

All traffic deaths, by rate = 10.7

All firearm deaths including murder and suicide (which are not accidents) by rate, is 10.6 (murder and suicide combine - 10.2. It looks like 'undetermined' and 'legal intervention/war' make up the difference)


http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf Table 18



There is roughly 2 times as many licensed drivers as compared to ALL firearm owners. (210 million licensed drivers vs est'd 100 million gun owners)

There is roughly 50 million LESS cars on the road than there are firearms in the US. (255 million cars on the road vs est'd 300 million total guns)

 

[Crawdad1]

So recently I started working at a big box retailer selling firearms. I used to be opposed to the idea of requiring people to pass a safety course before owning a firearm. Now, after being on this side of the counter and dealing with the general public, I have changed my opinion.

I assumed common sense was more prevalent than it is. Turns out, your average gun buyer is a complete and utter imbecile. I am surprised there aren't more gun related accident than there are annually.

No frickin way. Tough. That's one of the risks you assume living in a free country. You want your government approval test? Leave for China, I'll buy you the one way ticket. They have a bunch of tests over there and you'll be completely safe. Isn't that what you want?

 

[buck460XVR]

No frickin way. Tough. That's one of the risks you assume living in a free country. You want your government approval test? Leave for China, I'll buy you the one way ticket. They have a bunch of tests over there and you'll be completely safe. Isn't that what you want?

One of the other risks you have living in our free country is that other folks may have a different opinion than yours and have the right to express it without the fear of persecution. I think that right is guaranteed right before the RKBA in our bill of rights. Maybe if you don't like what the OP has to say, you should leave.

While I do not necessarily agree that we need a mandatory training course before purchasing a firearm, there is no question training does make the sport safer. One does not need a license to buy a car, only to operate it. There's a reason most states require a mandatory training course before first time hunters are allowed out into the field. I help teach such a course. I also hunt with folks that were required to take the course and those of us grandfathered because we were hunting before the course was required to purchase a license. It's amazing how much safer and aware the young kids are in the field than their grandpas, who never took the course, are. One only has to look at the reduction in deaths and injuries during the hunting season over the last half a century to see how they have been reduced, even tho hunting opportunities and numbers have increased, and reporting of such incidents has become more exact. In my state for instance, half a century ago when I first started hunting, there would be double digits gun related deaths during the gun deer season. Now many times there are none, even tho guns are more lethal and the seasons are more liberal. 40 years ago, when legislation was first introduced to make Hunter Safety mandatory, folks cried it was an anti-hunter campaign, designed to force folks outta hunting. Now, no one gives it a second thought. Many folks voluntarily take it more than once. In most parts of the country for many decades there has been required training in order for folks to use their firearms. It has proven to save lives. This mandatory training is one reason I believe gun ownership has become so safe, as a good portion of gun owners are also hunters that are required to take a course.

Again, I'm not saying I'm for mandatory training in order to purchase/own a firearm, BUT...., I am "just sayin'".