My exposure to Ayoob is fairly recent, and in spite of many positive references to his writings about tactics, I have noted some opinions contrary to the opinion I had originally begun to form. Would you mind sharing your thoughts of like and dislike?
opinions about Massad Ayoob
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Cosmoline
Member
Someone who's written as many books and articles as Mas is bound to say things some people disagree with. I disagree with several positions he's taken. But he's still a very useful source of information.
El Tejon
Member
LFI-1 is the best return of your gun skul tuition around. He covered more about self-defense than 3 years of law school and the bar exam. I highly recommend it.
However, some of Mas' concerns/what ifs/possibilities, inter alia, e.g. handloaded ammo, are just that "concerns." I put no legal weight behind them.
Some disapprove of his language. It is very profane, but done for a reason.
He has interesting observations on long weapons, but I would not recommend those classes as your only class.
Different schools stress different things. Want to study engineering? Go to Purdue (Go Pocketprotectors!) not Indiana. Not to say Indiana is a bad school, just that it does not teach engineering.
Gun skuls are no different. LFI is the shield, many others are the sword.
However, some of Mas' concerns/what ifs/possibilities, inter alia, e.g. handloaded ammo, are just that "concerns." I put no legal weight behind them.
Some disapprove of his language. It is very profane, but done for a reason.
He has interesting observations on long weapons, but I would not recommend those classes as your only class.
Different schools stress different things. Want to study engineering? Go to Purdue (Go Pocketprotectors!) not Indiana. Not to say Indiana is a bad school, just that it does not teach engineering.
Gun skuls are no different. LFI is the shield, many others are the sword.
KONY
Member
My only experience with Ayoob has been through the articles he's published in various gun rags as I have never attended one of his classes nor read one of his books ... thus far, I think it would be foolish to ignore any of his advice, especially in the legal realm as his credentials in this arena seem paramount.
That said, I think it would be equally foolhardy to blindly take his advice, or anyone else's for that matter, without first cross-referencing it with other expert opinions (yes, there are others out there) and good ol' fashioned personal logic. This is how I treat just about any new piece of information I receive, especially if the consequences of taking/ignoring the advice are considerable.
I have taken LFI-1 and am slated to take LFI-II this summer. I wrote a review of LFI-1 that was published in Women & Guns this past January.
My thoughts about Mas Ayoob? First off, on a personal level: he's a nice guy, but a study in contradictions. An avowed feminist (yes, really), one of his more popular books (Stressfire) contains some decidedly out of date opinions about female capabilities. (Glad he's since updated that set of opinions anyway!) A man of strong professional opinions, in person he is surprisingly easy to engage and is very open to evidence proving the opposite of his expressed opinion.
His resume is impressive. Not just the sheer volume of his work, but the breadth of it, is surprising. His professional associations and recognitions are certainly convincing -- but more convincing is listening to him talk on legal issues related to use of force. He doesn't just give opinions, he follows those opinions with legal cites, anecdotes, references and citations to back his opinions up. And the citations are obviously right at the tip of his tongue. Whether you agree with him or not, Ayoob knows his stuff.
His language is foul, shocking, annoying, and completely unnecessary. Yeah, I know he does it for a reason, but in my opinion the reason is poorly thought out -- but I will add that he puts on a heckuva show and that the language, disgusting though it is, is one way of keeping people awake for long hours listening to lectures on a grim subject.
His jokes are equally as offensive as his language. Perhaps the most annoying drawback of listening to the lectures in LFI-1 is that they were liberally spiced with the same ain't-sex-funny joke, over and over and over again. Yeah, sex is funny. And you could tell he'd put a lot of thought into mixing the jokes up, equally offending (in no particular order) lawyers, policemen, ordinary citizens, homosexuals, straights, whites, blacks, asians, women -- you name the group, he's got a joke to offend them. I asked him about it after class and his comment was classic Ayoob, something along the lines of, "I cannot avoid offending some people, so I try to make sure everyone is equally offended. It's kind of a PC thing." (That quote is NOT verbatim, but is the gist of what he said.) All very well and good, but you know what? No matter what joke he was telling, his punch line was sex in one flavor or another. It got wearying.
But grumbles about his style are really beside the point.
When Ayoob expresses an opinion, I may not always believe it but I always take it seriously. He knows what he's talking about, more often than not.
pax
My thoughts about Mas Ayoob? First off, on a personal level: he's a nice guy, but a study in contradictions. An avowed feminist (yes, really), one of his more popular books (Stressfire) contains some decidedly out of date opinions about female capabilities. (Glad he's since updated that set of opinions anyway!) A man of strong professional opinions, in person he is surprisingly easy to engage and is very open to evidence proving the opposite of his expressed opinion.
His resume is impressive. Not just the sheer volume of his work, but the breadth of it, is surprising. His professional associations and recognitions are certainly convincing -- but more convincing is listening to him talk on legal issues related to use of force. He doesn't just give opinions, he follows those opinions with legal cites, anecdotes, references and citations to back his opinions up. And the citations are obviously right at the tip of his tongue. Whether you agree with him or not, Ayoob knows his stuff.
His language is foul, shocking, annoying, and completely unnecessary. Yeah, I know he does it for a reason, but in my opinion the reason is poorly thought out -- but I will add that he puts on a heckuva show and that the language, disgusting though it is, is one way of keeping people awake for long hours listening to lectures on a grim subject.
His jokes are equally as offensive as his language. Perhaps the most annoying drawback of listening to the lectures in LFI-1 is that they were liberally spiced with the same ain't-sex-funny joke, over and over and over again. Yeah, sex is funny. And you could tell he'd put a lot of thought into mixing the jokes up, equally offending (in no particular order) lawyers, policemen, ordinary citizens, homosexuals, straights, whites, blacks, asians, women -- you name the group, he's got a joke to offend them. I asked him about it after class and his comment was classic Ayoob, something along the lines of, "I cannot avoid offending some people, so I try to make sure everyone is equally offended. It's kind of a PC thing." (That quote is NOT verbatim, but is the gist of what he said.) All very well and good, but you know what? No matter what joke he was telling, his punch line was sex in one flavor or another. It got wearying.
But grumbles about his style are really beside the point.
When Ayoob expresses an opinion, I may not always believe it but I always take it seriously. He knows what he's talking about, more often than not.
pax
KONY
Member
Pax, that was well-stated assessment. Thank you!
I think a controversial stance Ayoob has taken is that 147 grain 9mm ammo is worthless. Upon cross-referencing this advice, I found it to be data-driven and well-intentioned but dated. Not sure if he has since changed his stance on this issue.
I think a controversial stance Ayoob has taken is that 147 grain 9mm ammo is worthless. Upon cross-referencing this advice, I found it to be data-driven and well-intentioned but dated. Not sure if he has since changed his stance on this issue.
Preacherman
Member
I like Mas, and have taken LFI-1, -2 and -3. I've also trained at Thunder Ranch, Chapman Academy, with the Miculeks in Shreveport, etc., and all instructors, without exception, spoke highly of him and recommended his courses (just as he had recommended theirs to me earlier). If you're interested in my in-depth review of LFI-2 and -3, see here.
Basically, I recommend to every novice shooter wanting some decent training that they attend LFI-1 as their first course. Mas correctly describes this as a course in the environment of self-defence, rather than a simple shooting course: you'll shoot less than at other schools, but cover a heck of a lot more about the psychological, sociological, legal and other contexts of the use of lethal force. Invaluable stuff, and very thought-provoking. After LFI-1, then it's time to go to a pure "shootin' school" for more firearm-specific training. At Mas's recommendation, I chose Thunder Ranch's Defensive Handgun 1 course. You can also do more handgun training with LFI, of course: they do have courses designed for this.
All in all, I recommend him highly.
Basically, I recommend to every novice shooter wanting some decent training that they attend LFI-1 as their first course. Mas correctly describes this as a course in the environment of self-defence, rather than a simple shooting course: you'll shoot less than at other schools, but cover a heck of a lot more about the psychological, sociological, legal and other contexts of the use of lethal force. Invaluable stuff, and very thought-provoking. After LFI-1, then it's time to go to a pure "shootin' school" for more firearm-specific training. At Mas's recommendation, I chose Thunder Ranch's Defensive Handgun 1 course. You can also do more handgun training with LFI, of course: they do have courses designed for this.
All in all, I recommend him highly.
No, actually, it doesn't say much at all.
It tells us you don't like him. But it doesn't tell us why you don't like him. It doesn't tell us what you think he's wrong about, what you think he's mistaken about, what you think he's overstated, and what (obviously tiny) subset of his opinions you might agree with.
All it says is that you know how to make a cheap, stupid, and hardly original play on 'naughty' words.
pax
FPrice
Member
pax vs dave3006
pax: Several hundred (close to 1,000 maybe?) words detailing personal experience and analysis of Ayoob and some of his good/bad points.
dave3006: Seven words. No concrete observations.
pax: Careful analysis and discussion of said good/bad points.
dave3006: Cheap personal shot. No back-up or justification.
To paraphrase Viper (Tom Skerritt) from Topgun, "I guess that just about covers analysis of Ayoob.".
pax: Several hundred (close to 1,000 maybe?) words detailing personal experience and analysis of Ayoob and some of his good/bad points.
dave3006: Seven words. No concrete observations.
pax: Careful analysis and discussion of said good/bad points.
dave3006: Cheap personal shot. No back-up or justification.
To paraphrase Viper (Tom Skerritt) from Topgun, "I guess that just about covers analysis of Ayoob.".
He is an expert in a field which has no concrete definition of what constitutes an expert. There is no yardstick to measure how "good" or "bad" someone is in teaching defensive firearms.
I am sure that anybody can teach something of value, even if it is what not to do.
I am sure that anybody can teach something of value, even if it is what not to do.
A saying I once heard was " Take what you can use, and leave the rest "
I've found this to be good advice when dealing with pretty much any "expert" in their field. Most everybody has something to learn and something to teach . Presentations may vary in palatability , but good information is always good information, and Ayoob has enough of it to pay attention to.
PS: I dislike the word "expert" as it involkes some sort of infallibility . Good information is good information rather I provide it, you provide it, or the expert provides it.
I've found this to be good advice when dealing with pretty much any "expert" in their field. Most everybody has something to learn and something to teach . Presentations may vary in palatability , but good information is always good information, and Ayoob has enough of it to pay attention to.
PS: I dislike the word "expert" as it involkes some sort of infallibility . Good information is good information rather I provide it, you provide it, or the expert provides it.
rwc
Member
I spend a lot of money on experts (in an unrelated area). You can obtain an opinion on just about any topic from an expert. What makes someone an expert? A combination of training and experience, yadda, yadda...
I imagine that there are any number of THR regulars who could qualify as an expert in court on their area of interest. The scene from "My Cousin Vinny" where Marisa Tomei (sp?) provides her opinion on the car is a pretty good example of what makes an "expert." I.e. - she knew what the heck she was talking about.
I imagine that there are any number of THR regulars who could qualify as an expert in court on their area of interest. The scene from "My Cousin Vinny" where Marisa Tomei (sp?) provides her opinion on the car is a pretty good example of what makes an "expert." I.e. - she knew what the heck she was talking about.
I have viewed Ayoob with a jaundiced eye since a lady on another forum, some years ago, complained of sexist action on Ayoob's part towards her.
No, I wasn't there, but people who have an over-fixation about sex concern me, especially when I'm relying on them for good judgement in training.
John
No, I wasn't there, but people who have an over-fixation about sex concern me, especially when I'm relying on them for good judgement in training.
John
Hi, I never took a class from him or any one else to compare him with but I have read many training books by differing authors. His book "In the Gravest Extreme" is the one I recommend first to any person who is thinking about a CCW permit. Some of his opinions seem to tick some gun people off, first about using throw down money to get out of trouble before you have to shoot and secondly his opinion that you should not use handloads as self defense rounds due to legal concerns.
I think his concern about legalities and how a shooting will play in court is his strength and what sets him apart from other writers and trainers.
pete
I think his concern about legalities and how a shooting will play in court is his strength and what sets him apart from other writers and trainers.
pete
CAS700850
Member
I've not had the pleasure of taking one of his courses, or meeting the man in person. My opinion is based upon years of reading his articles,books, and seeing a cupe of his videotapes.
I see him as a very learned man, with vast knowledge about both shooting, and the law regarding the use of deadly force. He is obviously well regarded in the area, as he has been permitted to testify as an expert witness in the field.
My personal problem stems from his writings. I have yet to see an article in which a prosecutor is written of in terms other than negative. I can understand that, from hs perspective as a defense witness, he has seen many prosecutors that may have been motivated by politics, etc., but there actually are prosecutors out there who don't give a hoot about politics, know which end of a gun is which, and recognize a valid defensive shooting when we see it.
Rant done. Thank you for listening.
I see him as a very learned man, with vast knowledge about both shooting, and the law regarding the use of deadly force. He is obviously well regarded in the area, as he has been permitted to testify as an expert witness in the field.
My personal problem stems from his writings. I have yet to see an article in which a prosecutor is written of in terms other than negative. I can understand that, from hs perspective as a defense witness, he has seen many prosecutors that may have been motivated by politics, etc., but there actually are prosecutors out there who don't give a hoot about politics, know which end of a gun is which, and recognize a valid defensive shooting when we see it.
Rant done. Thank you for listening.
30 cal slob
Member
I'm an LFI alum too.
I can tell you what opinions I've formed of him based on my readings of his extensive works and interactions with him in a training and classroom setting.
I personally like and respect the guy. He has a bawdy "street" sense of humor, which I think livens up a weighty and at times ponderous subject matter (judicious use of deadly force).
You'd think in a previous life he was a standup comedian or something like that. I've noticed that some of the more straightlaced male, female, and (possibly) gay students might have been offended by his crude jokes. To which I might say ... it's just a joke. Get over it.
I have never seen Mas act inappropriately toward women.
In any case, I don't believe his style detracts from his main message.
Regardless of what you might think of his recommended techniques and the substance of his classes - it's obvious that the man CARES DEEPLY about YOU -- the law-abiding armed citizen and wants to see that YOU don't get in any trouble - either with bad guys or the law.
Massad makes the conscientious gun owner THINK RESPONSIBLY before he/she straps on a piece and walks out the door.
I personally think the world is a better place with him in it.
-slob
p.s. if anyone can remember Mas' "glock-in-the-microwave" joke, please PM to me.
I can tell you what opinions I've formed of him based on my readings of his extensive works and interactions with him in a training and classroom setting.
I personally like and respect the guy. He has a bawdy "street" sense of humor, which I think livens up a weighty and at times ponderous subject matter (judicious use of deadly force).
You'd think in a previous life he was a standup comedian or something like that. I've noticed that some of the more straightlaced male, female, and (possibly) gay students might have been offended by his crude jokes. To which I might say ... it's just a joke. Get over it.
I have never seen Mas act inappropriately toward women.
In any case, I don't believe his style detracts from his main message.
Regardless of what you might think of his recommended techniques and the substance of his classes - it's obvious that the man CARES DEEPLY about YOU -- the law-abiding armed citizen and wants to see that YOU don't get in any trouble - either with bad guys or the law.
Massad makes the conscientious gun owner THINK RESPONSIBLY before he/she straps on a piece and walks out the door.
I personally think the world is a better place with him in it.
-slob
p.s. if anyone can remember Mas' "glock-in-the-microwave" joke, please PM to me.
I've taken LFI 1 and LFI 2. I think LFI 1 is the best all around class for anyone who considers using a gun for self protection. It's what every CCW holder should know BEFORE they strap on a gun for the firs time.
LFI 2 was good, but wasn't the same experience as LFI 1.
Mas is a controversial guy. Yet, I've only ever run across one person who actually took LFI 1 and didn't think it was worth it. I respect that person's opinion more because they actually went into the class with an open mind and didn't base their judgement on second hand knowledge. The majority of his detractors have never personally met the man, much less taken his class.
LFI 2 was good, but wasn't the same experience as LFI 1.
Mas is a controversial guy. Yet, I've only ever run across one person who actually took LFI 1 and didn't think it was worth it. I respect that person's opinion more because they actually went into the class with an open mind and didn't base their judgement on second hand knowledge. The majority of his detractors have never personally met the man, much less taken his class.
I took Judicious Use of Deadly Force from him, as well as LFI-2. If the goal is to learn how to shoot effectively, there are better schools. If they goal is to learn when to shoot, and how to deal with the aftermath, there are none better to teach you than Ayoob.
I took LFI-1 in the same class as Preacherman. There are two dimensions to my answer.
1. Was the class informative and worth my time? Yes, quite definitely. I learned a great deal. Do I regard Ayoob as definitive on all questions. No, I don't. As a trained researcher, I evaluate everything and don't take anyone's authority as conclusive. There is too much of the appeal to authority in the gun world. Cooper said, Ayoob said - etc. One must be a student.
2. Is Ayoob perfect in all personal relations and can he be offensive to some? No, he isn't and Yes, he can. Some folks might not appreciate their experience with him because of some aspects of his behavior.
I've had another great teacher who as a person was really not up to par - so one has to make their own choice about dealing with the person.
1. Was the class informative and worth my time? Yes, quite definitely. I learned a great deal. Do I regard Ayoob as definitive on all questions. No, I don't. As a trained researcher, I evaluate everything and don't take anyone's authority as conclusive. There is too much of the appeal to authority in the gun world. Cooper said, Ayoob said - etc. One must be a student.
2. Is Ayoob perfect in all personal relations and can he be offensive to some? No, he isn't and Yes, he can. Some folks might not appreciate their experience with him because of some aspects of his behavior.
I've had another great teacher who as a person was really not up to par - so one has to make their own choice about dealing with the person.
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